What work can I do? ICB Qualifications - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

Ann-marie · Senior Member

What work can I do? ICB Qualifications

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Ann-marie,

not seen any posts from you for a while. Hope the worlds being nice to you.

I know what you mean about the ICB website. Sometimes it does feel as though it's totally geared to students with little there for we members in practice.

The members in practice area of the professional conduct regulations talk more about use of their crest than anything else!

There is nothing in there to say that you cannot do anything. It's just got the catch all phrase about whatever you do you should do it with due diligence and competence and that you should not do anything to bring them into disrepute.

I know that there used to be more on the site about AICB but it's all disappeared. Probably as a result of the doubling of the exams and the issues over members already in practice.

Happy for anyone to disagree with me but there doesn't seem to be much by way of restrictions for AICB's on there.

cheers,

Shaun.

Wella · Expert

Ann Marie

I would use the sylabus as a guide. I assume you have your PII through the ICB?

If so, their cover only extends as far as what you are qualified to (from memory that would be Sole Trader businesses upto trial balance - not sure if it extends to only computerised accounting as well)

You will also find if you choose to view a job on the vacancy page, it will only let you select ones that match your qualification

Bill

Ann-marie · Senior Member

Hi,

I've not been around on here too much lately, it's my year end at work (day job) and i'm preparing for our annual audit so i'm rather snowed under with that at the moment. It will all be finished by mid April so i'm sure you'll hear a bit more from me then :)

In all honesty I think the ICB could do with a guide on their site confirming what you can or can't do through out your studies.

I've actually got my PII insurance through Hiscox, but it makes sense that if you've past level II you can detail with sole traders up to TB etc..

Level III covers Partnership to P+L and balance sheet, so do you think I could complete full annual accounts once I gain this qualification or just to Trial Balance? Also, (I think I should probably know this but I guess that's what these forums are for) at one point does an accountant need to sign off the accounts. I'm quite comfortable preparing the accounts but i'm not sure if an accountant would want to sign them off at that point or if they would want to prepare them from trial balance?

Ann-marie

R2s · Veteran Member

Hi Ann-Marie,

As AICB you can do all bookkeeping for Sole Traders and Small Business Partnerships upto and including year end adjustments and final accounts.

You are also able to work for Limited companies on day to day bookkeeping but not Year End adjustments**

**If you check out the job vacancies on the ICB website it clearly states that if the is advert from a LTD company that:-

"If you are an Associate Member please note that you will not be able to make year end adjustments or produce final accounts"

Hope this helps,

-- Edited by R2s on Tuesday 2nd of March 2010 06:45:44 PM

Wella · Expert

Hi Rachel

I based my assumption of the limits on the ICB professional conduct reg

12 A member is not obliged to accept any work and must not accept any work which:
a. he lacks sufficient expertise or competence to complete

As final accounts and partnership accounts aren't dealt with until level three, I assumed the ICB would measure competency as having passed or be exempt from the level III exam.

Bill

Blacker9999 · Veteran Member

Hi Ann-Marie,

I too have passed Level 1 Manual and Level 2 Comp. Now sitting the Payroll Diploma Exam
Did you sit the manual 2 and 3 before sitting the Comp 3

I am more happier with the computer side of things than the manual, i would like to sit the level 3 Comp but couldn't find any books on the ICB Website?

Could you advise.

Cheers
Ronnie

Neil G · Member

Hi,

I've completed the manual exams upto and including level III and would recommend that you complete to this level as it'll assist with your understanding when using the computerised software packages.

Kind Regards

Neil

Neil · Senior Member

R2s wrote:
As AICB you can do all bookkeeping for Sole Traders and Small Business Partnerships upto and including year end adjustments

I'm not sure that's correct. Partnership accounts aren't covered at Level II, only Sole Traders. Profit & Loss allocation isn't introduced until level III.

Cheers
Neil

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Neil,

I think that such depends on your other skills and experience.

exams only prove your skills to other people. And a worrying aspect of it all is that in many cases exams tend to prove one's ability to pass exams rather than being able to apply that knowledge to the real world.

I've spoken with Ann Marie previously and would have no qualms at all about allowing her to do my books even though she's only gone to AICB (comp) so far.

Others may have an armful of qualifications and I wouldn't let them within the same postcode as my companies books.

Many only go to AICB (comp) with the ICB (myself included) as traditionally (no longer quite the case) that's the level where you can get a practicing certificate and cover for MLR. So basically it's the lowest level necessary for our requirements.

I fully agree that people need a firm understanding of what they are doing (including the manual side) and lifelong study is a necessary part of our profession. But where people come to this with enthusiasm and practical experience I do not feel that people without the qualifications perform any less competently than those with them.

cheers,

Shaun.

peter1162 · Veteran Member

Hi Shaun

I wrote to the HLC and have been told that the new rules for obtaining the practising certificate from the ICB do not come into force until September 2011. That means until then to obtain the practising certificate requires only Manual 1 and Computing 2. Having worked with institutions before I find all this par for the course.

The HLC have told me that they have applied for membership of the ICB for me so will be interested to see what comes back with my membership info.

I am a great believer in experience rather than skills, have worked with so many people who are highly qualified but not practical.

Kind regards

Peter

-- Edited by peter1162 on Wednesday 3rd of March 2010 12:55:43 PM

Wella · Expert

Morning Shaun

I totally agree that there is more to being competent than passing an exam.
I made my assumption on the conditions of membership to the ICB (I'm not saying my assumption is correct, it is just my understanding of the ICB code of conduct).

As you know, they base their measure of competence as having passed their exams, to a certain level. I assumed (rightly or wrongly) that if you haven't proved (to the ICB) that you understand partnership accounts and the preparation of final accounts, they wouldn't expect you to carry out such work unless qualified by another body.

Your own case is a prime example of skill and experience being more than a match for the ICB qualification

Bill

Wella · Expert

I stand corrected on one point of the ICB syllabus.

I have just read the syllabus for both level II exams and it does require production of balance sheet and Trading, Profit & Loss Accounts but only for Sole Traders.

Bill

Neil · Senior Member

Shaun, I agree with you that competence in exams isn't the same thing as competence in the real world but if you have PII as an ICB member it is only valid if you practice within the scope of your membership level.

Cheers
Neil

peter1162 · Veteran Member

Hi Shaun

This is one of my biggest concerns is how to keep on practicing after passing the exams before getting work, any ideas on how to do this.

Peter

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Neil,

True... Of course, you could always get PII through someone other than Trafalgar. (Hiscox and Morethan both seem popular choices and acceptance is based on experience rather than membership).

I only aspire to being able to go beyond my level of perceived ICB competency as the old ACCA ball and chain restricts me far more than what the ICB allow me to do. And even though I don't take the ICB particularly seriously I wouldn't do anything to upset the ACCA.

Actually, got an answer back from IAB this morning and if I want to jump ship to them then my ACCA status would qualify me to join at Fellow (FIAB) level.

The IAB website is a breath of fresh air compared to the ICB one as it's built assuming that people will still be with them after they've passed the exams!

Even as we speak I'm already removing the ICB crest from my business cards (skin flint and control freak that I am I print my own and you really can't tell the difference between them and the professional ones that I used to have printed).

Talk in a bit,

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Peter,

sorry, can you expand on what you mean in your question?

You can have a practicing certificate but no work... An unfortunate position that many of us are in from time to time.

Sorry if that doesn't answer the question, not sure what you mean on this one. (Probably just me having a senior moment).

cheers,

Shaun.

peter1162 · Veteran Member

Hi Shaun

My apologies for being vague. I am concerned as most businesses are at the moment of how you keep yourself working when you have no work from Customers.

I am new to this like Neil is. So what I have found with experience is once you have passed the exams and are waiting for your first client or Customer you want to keep on practicing so that you do not forget what you have learnt.

You have obviously been accounting for a long time and it is second nature to you, where as we rookies are apt to forget things if we do not keep on working at Bookkeeping, and trying out different things becomes boring.

What is the best way to keep your self up to date with no work. I would imagine this is the same problem that a lot of accountancy firms are finding themselves in at the moment.

Kind regards

Peter

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Got ya...

on occasion I do AAT units 1-4 although seems more like therapy than actual learning!

old exam papers are always a good one. Try the CAT papers which are freely available on the ACCA website or even venture ACCA paper F3.

With the variety of questions on this site answering these always keeps one in good practice (works for me especially when I can get a good debate going with Bill)

Plus of course there's never any shortage of reading over on the HMRC website.

Use down time to hone skills such as Sage.

When fully qualified of course you will have the requirement for CPD which formalises annual learning and revision requirements.

Try not to let continued study become the be all and end all though as your main problem once qualified is finding the work as it will seldom if ever come to you uninvited!

Hope that this helped,

Shaun.

Wella · Expert

No debate this time Shaun, just an observation.

While I am totally in favour of CPD and am always hungry to find out more. I can't see any where within the ICB that says that it is a requirement to maintain a formal CPD log

If anyone can point me in a different direction, please let me know

Bill

AngelaWBS · Senior Member

Hi,

Just picking up on the CPD bit, I notice that by attending an ICB regional seminar you gain, I think coz I can't remember off the top of my head, 7 CPD points.

If we are supposed to be doing CPD, how many points are you required to get?

Regards

Wella · Expert

Hi Angela

It was remembering that I had seen the 7 CPD points for attending a seminar and Shauns point, that sparked my observation.

Generally CPD can be anything that furthers our knowledge (even this forum!) but is it mandatory and what does the ICB regard as CPD? Like I said, I have scoured the site but can't find anything related to it but my eyesight isn't what it used to be

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

For reference the 7 cpd points is on this page :

http://www.bookkeepers.org.uk/News/619

In the members area on the CPD page the first line just reads :

There is currently no compulsory CPD programme in place for ICB members.

and the last line reads :

Members will be able to update their own CPD record and decide for themselves if they have satisfied the requirements.

However, this is at odds with the IFAC IES7 requirement so if they want to keep their status they need to formalise their requirements.

Following the IFAC CPD requirements each year people need to gain 40 CPD point of which 21 must be verifiable and 19 can be gained as Bill states from things like reading and posting on this site.

For the unverifiable stuff I don't know how many points one could attribute to each activity.

Open to the floor for comments.

cheers,

Shaun.

AngelaWBS · Senior Member

Thanks Bill & Shaun,

Thats really handy to know ............... wonder how many points that bit of information is worth!!!!

Keep up the good work.

Regards

Ann-marie · Senior Member

ooh I seem to have started some what of a topical conversation...

Thanks Shamus for kind words as usual - always appreciated :)

I had often wondered about the CPD side of things, I think that will all the changes that are happening from ICB this is something that at some point will become mandatory as it is with other bodies - just in my view.

Ann-marie

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Ann-Marie,

no probs, we have to look after our own in here.

It doesn't take much to start a topical conversation at the moment. The only problem is that by the time they get to the end they're seldom about the conversation that they started from so you can never find what you're looking for when your searching through old messages.

The ICB aren't going to have any choice in the matter if they want to continue with their current status as the IFAC requirement is a directive that they must apply.

I believe that there is some flexibility around the actual number of points but not the general principles.

Shaun.

Wella · Expert

Shaun
Your eyesight is obviously better than mine, I eventually found CPD details in the members area under the heading CPD (would you believe). Pretty sure it's a new addition to the site but may be wrong.

Ann Marie
Don't stop the questions coming - Shaun uses them as study aids (and sport I think)

Angela
Glad I wasn't the only one that didn't see it on the website

Bill

Harps · Veteran Member

I contacted the ICB a couple of weeks ago re CPD and they advised me that there is no current requirement to complete CPD but this is going to be discussed at the regional seminars, as I got the impression this may change.
For those unable to attend the seminars, it is going to be communicated afterwards.

I have gained MICB - level 3 in manual and computerised with no previuos experience apart from the love of working with figures, and having worked for a bank, looking for imbalances. I must admit it is very daunting in the real world and at times I lack confidence and wish I could have gained more experience. The problem is, employers want someone with experience. I am hoping my confidence will grow, but I am costantly questioning what I am doing and in areas of doubt, I look it up, ring my clients accountant for advice or post my queries on this incredibly helpful forum.

Harps