Qualified bookkeepers really are in huge demand - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

PJC Bookkeeping · Veteran Member

Qualified bookkeepers really are in huge demand

Wella · Expert

Hi Peter

I think that anything that raises the profile of bookkeeping is not a bad thing and in my case the profile of the ICB. As these leaflets may also be read by business owners who are not aware of the ICB.

My one concern is that it will serve nobodies interest, not even the ICBs if the market is flooded with bookkeepers that think it's an easy route to make money (the learning providers will benefit). Many will drop out after realising that it's not as easy as promised, possibly leaving their clients in the lurch. This will not only damage the ICB but also the image of bookkeepers no matter which allegiance they have.

Just my view

Bill

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

We are! Wow. Was in two minds about the new Porsche but now that I know that!!!!

From my dealings over the past few months I really think that the ICB live in an alternate universe.

Shaun.

Amy8n · Veteran Member

I would change the word 'qualified' to 'good' and omit the word 'huge'!

-- Edited by Amy8n on Thursday 4th of March 2010 06:56:58 PM

Ann-marie · Senior Member

Hi,

This is a rather interesting topic as I have recently spoken to a few accountants who have said that they are really struggling to find good bookkeepers.

I think I might have some work coming my way from one of the accountants too - which is rather exciting.

Ann-marie

ProBowlUK · Senior Member

Ann-marie wrote:

This is a rather interesting topic as I have recently spoken to a few accountants who have said that they are really struggling to find good bookkeepers.

That's the idea ... look for the positive.

Might be the same reason as when I first learnt Bookkeeping, back in 1975.
It was a quite an intensive course, at a vocational college, and I passed RSA I and II plus Pitmans I II III in about 3 months.

On leaving, every job I tried they said the same - "Good at the theory, lousy in practice". Might have have had a different outcome if there had been more practice papers to work on during the course (?)

Maybe something like that has to do with Accountants' reluctance to take on ICB and IAB "probationers" ?

-- Edited by ProBowlUK on Thursday 4th of March 2010 11:47:12 PM

-- Edited by ProBowlUK on Thursday 4th of March 2010 11:48:06 PM

-- Edited by ProBowlUK on Thursday 4th of March 2010 11:49:14 PM

Neil G · Member

Hi All,

I don't think it's just bookkeeping that this happens, the distance learning providers do it with other courses such as web design. The ICB really do need to take responsibility of this situation, they need to understand whether or not this is a true representation across the UK.

I suppose we just need to distance ourselves from the cowboys........

Kind Regards

Neil

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

I am, I'm moving to the IAB!

ProBowlUK · Senior Member

Shamus wrote:

I am, I'm moving to the IAB!

Is it straightforward to do so ?

I'm hoping to do the "Career Path" block of courses with Ideal Schools.
It seems the cheapest option.

Haven't got a course yet and think it might be better to go IAB instead of ICB.
Except for their examination dates, only June appears in the 2010 Examinations Timetable.

Qualifications look the same, except the Self Assessment certificate (can't find one at IAB). confuse

-- Edited by ProBowlUK on Friday 5th of March 2010 06:34:23 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Bob,

It seems straight forwards enough.

IAB give accreditation for equivalent qualifications and experience if you've taken any yet.

My impression is that there is no love lost between the two bodies. They can't even agree on how to spell bookkeeper! (ICB - Bookkeeper, IAB Book-Keeper).

On the self assessment certificate that must mean that with the ICB you have to pay for the exam and extra letters to be allowed to do self assessment whereas with IAB as it's not specifically mentioned then my guess is there's nothing to stop you offering the service without a qualification.

The exam that appeals to me is accounting using IFRS. As soon as I've finished ACCA that one's got CPD written all over it!

So far I'm very impressed with how professional IAB come across.

The website is built assuming that some of their members do actually go beyond being a student!

The qualification counts towards becoming an accountant via the IFA (not one of the top bodies but still a sound qualification).

And best of all, they're not so wrapped up in their own little world that they don't recognise the ACCA qualification for what it is! (Still can't believe that the ICB doesn't!!!... Seems like the isle of white not recognising England).

Not filled out the paperwork yet but moving is already a done deal for me due to the disagreement over higher qualifications of the ACCA and AAT being regarded by the ICB as lower than their own.

Good call on Ideal from what I've read on other threads. Seems to be Ideal and Premier that are coming in as the best two at the moment.

Talk soon,

Shaun.

Wella · Expert

Some levels of IAB even give exemption to ACCA papers too (level 4) others are idendified as suitable for registration. Presumably only if you have taken the exam and not a member of the IAB by exemption. The ICB have no exemption status (there is a low level one at ICB level two for CAT)

Bookkeeper, Book-Keeper and Book Keeper (The same with Bookkeeping etc) are all correct (apparently) and when spelt as Bookkeeper is one of only two words in the english language with 3 sets of consecutive paired letters (the other word being bookkeeping)

A lot of people down here in Cornwall definately recognise England - as a seperate country. But I get your point about ACCA and ICB

Bill

steve12 · Veteran Member

Personally I would stay well clear of the ICB. The ICB , as I see it, its main aim is to maximise its income and profits. It is very commercially orientated. Their examination qualifications are not fully recognised by the UK qualifications authority.
The IAB in my view is a very professional organisation and very well respected within the accounting industry. All their qualifications are fully recognised and are of a very high standard. As far as I am concerned the IAB is the main professional organisation for Bookkeepers.

Alison · Senior Member

I agree with Steve12.

Having been a member of the ICB for 2 years I found them very unprofessional, rude and money grabbing.

I have been a member of the IAB since September and even though they made an error on my renewal price they quickly corrected this error in a professional way.

As for demand on bookkeepers would say it really depends on the area you live. I am in West Yorkshire and before the recession I had built up a great client base with many chargeable hours (sometimes ridiculous amount of hours 80 hours a week) then recession hit making me lose many clients to the recession - either clients closing down their business or the owner saying they cannot afford the luxury of a bookkeeper and have many hours spare themselves to muddle through the bookkeeping themselves.

Also the trouble lies with too many people setting up as self employed bookkeepers because they got made redundant so much more competition and if these new unexperienced/unqualified bookkeepers are prepared to work for lot less the potential clients are going with price rather then experience/qualifications.

Alison

Xanobia · Member

Morning all

I am doing my ICB through the TDLC but having read the mass of postings about the ICB I think I am going to look at doing aat. I spoke to my local college a few weeks ago and they are charging under £600 for the intermediate level this year. Its either that or do a home learning one. The only problem I find with home learning is that I get too distracted with darned housework so I think going to college might be a better option for me. :)

Wendy

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Wendy,

I know the problem. My house is never as clean as it is when I should be studying!

£600 sounds very reasonable for intermediate level AAT. Does that include all of the skills tests?

I'm sure that they can't possibly being including the exams at that price.

Don't forget that your also going to have to budget for AAT subscription on top of the other costs. Although, you would have to do that with the ICB as well.

AAT is no guarantee of a job but it's more likely than going down the ICB route as it's a recognised and sought after qualification that does open a lot of doors.

Good luck with it Wendy. Hope that it turns into a profitable career for you.

All the best,

Shaun.

Xanobia · Member

Shaun

Not sure what it includes, he was very vague on the phone seen as the course doesn't start while September. I was just after a rough idea on price and I will go and see them nearer the time.

I haven't looked at the subscription costs for aat yet but I know this will be needed.

Broadening my options for when little man is at school is my aim. I know its not going to be easy and I will need to get experience.

I do have some experience in bookkeeping but that is from when I first left school and before computers became part of small businesses office equipment so it was manual bookkeeping and payroll I did.

Self employed was something I was thinking about but after reading on here about training providers mis selling. My views have changed for the time being, so I will carry on with my part time admin job and just keep looking on the job sites in the hope that something turns up to try and get the experience.

Wendy

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Wendy,

I think that they're being vague about AAT courses at the moment as they just don't know.

The new AAT qualification is to be announced to the training providers in April and comes into being from June from which time existing students will have 18 months in which to finish the level that they are currently studying.

Might be worth waiting to view the announcements on the AAT website in mid / late April before signing up for anything.

AAT annual subscription is £72 plus a one off registration fee of £33.

Coming from a manual background in bookkeeping is no bad thing as you know (or will quickly remember) what is going on under the bonnet so journals won't be the nightmare to you that they are to some who just assume that they only need the computerised side and no real fundamental knoweldge.

I think that if you can keep two income streams during your studies with one of them a steady income whilst you build up the bookkeeping side of the business that is definitely the best approach.

Love the pic of the black lab pup by the way. My family always have either those or golden retrievers... Although now that they've retired from the farm I don't think that they will be getting another replacement when the current one (a black lab) has gone :(

Rhianrach · Expert

Shamus wrote:

Hi Wendy,

I think that they're being vague about AAT courses at the moment as they just don't know.

The new AAT qualification is to be announced to the training providers in April and comes into being from June from which time existing students will have 18 months in which to finish the level that they are currently studying.

Might be worth waiting to view the announcements on the AAT website in mid / late April before signing up for anything.

AAT annual subscription is £72 plus a one off registration fee of £33.

Coming from a manual background in bookkeeping is no bad thing as you know (or will quickly remember) what is going on under the bonnet so journals won't be the nightmare to you that they are to some who just assume that they only need the computerised side and no real fundamental knoweldge.

I think that if you can keep two income streams during your studies with one of them a steady income whilst you build up the bookkeeping side of the business that is definitely the best approach.

Love the pic of the black lab pup by the way. My family always have either those or golden retrievers... Although now that they've retired from the farm I don't think that they will be getting another replacement when the current one (a black lab) has gone :(

'Tis what I'm doing at the moment and your right, understanding how everything works manually makes everything to do with computerised accounts seem a lot simpler, especially journal entries when things have been posted to the wrong account.

I think if I keep up gaining the experience in bookkeeping and finish Intermediate I should have good grounding to make a good go of bookkeeping.

Rhianrach · Expert

Xanobia wrote:

Shaun

Not sure what it includes, he was very vague on the phone seen as the course doesn't start while September. I was just after a rough idea on price and I will go and see them nearer the time.

I haven't looked at the subscription costs for aat yet but I know this will be needed.

Broadening my options for when little man is at school is my aim. I know its not going to be easy and I will need to get experience.

I do have some experience in bookkeeping but that is from when I first left school and before computers became part of small businesses office equipment so it was manual bookkeeping and payroll I did.

Self employed was something I was thinking about but after reading on here about training providers mis selling. My views have changed for the time being, so I will carry on with my part time admin job and just keep looking on the job sites in the hope that something turns up to try and get the experience.

Wendy

The prices differ for the actual courses, mine is £500 exactly for the year just gone plus registering with AAT £100 or so pound plus the exam at the end of the year around £40 (fees for skills tests are in with the £500).

I'm doing the same as you and preparing for when my daughter goes to school next year. I got lucky with experience though as a fellow student who owns a shop and came on the course to be able to do the books has found themselves with no time to do them so I now do them for free and gain experience and learn along the way.

I as said above would definately recommend the AAT quals and good luck :)

Xanobia · Member

Thanks Shaun and Rianrach.

I will wait for the announcements on aat, meanwhile I will be finishing my current ICB course.

The pic of our pooch was taken last May. He's alot bigger now and coming upto his first birthday. My hubby grew up with labradors so it was his choice, he's great with the kids and as mad as the rest of the members of the family :)

Wendy

ProBowlUK · Senior Member

Xanobia wrote:

... My hubby grew up with labradors so it was his choice, he's great with the kids and as mad as the rest of the members of the family :)

and what is the dog like ?

Xanobia · Member

I thought someone might pick up on that one :)

I suppose it applies to both the hubby and the dog :)

Wendy

chellawson · Senior Member

Hi all,

Im doing AAT at college and we had to pay for AAT membership and enter ourselves for the June exams. We only found this out a couple of weeks ago so the class was not very happy as the books alone weren't cheap. I managed to get all of mine on ebay for less that £20.00 so at least I made a saving there and will do the same for next year too.

Michelle

Lisa Jo · Senior Member

Ive always found the IAB professional. You can actually pick up the phone & know who answers, & if you e-mail they respond straight away. The ICB are a nightmare from what I hear with their new rules & regulations, just to get more money out of people. I paid for my fellowship status & then my certificate of compliance, obviously Im then to progress further through my payroll qualifications & the IAB have said that I can skip 2 levels with the IPP due to my qualifications. Anyhow, Ill recommend them.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Lisa,

Cheers for the recommendation. It's already a done deal for me and I will be moving my registration and practice over to IAB.

you are completely right about the ICB. In every email exchange that I've had with them I've found them to be arrogant and condescending in the extreme.

When they started thinking that their qualification was better than the ACCA one that was really the straw that broke the camels back for me.

There is no way that I'm paying them a penny towards more exams when it's them who have moved the goalposts in order to generate revenue.

On the other hand I have no problem at all taking exams with the IAB as they have told me that I don't need to take any! But I really want to take the Accounting to international standards one as my ACCA is all UK GAAP so would be good to add that string to my bow.

I'm actually looking forwards to moving to the IAB as everyone that I've spoken to speaks very highly of them, and in my limited correspondence with them I've found them very pleasant and professional.

I'm also really impressed with their website that (as I've said before) is actually written with the assumption that people will still be with them after passing their exams. The ICB's just seems geared totally towards harvesting as many new students as possible.

I know that the IAB are not the biggest... Yet. Then again once upon a time the guys at IBM who also thought that they were demigods thought, this new fangled Personal Computer will never sell. I know, they thought in their ivory towers, we'll outsource the chip development and software.... The chip design was outsourced to a little known company called Intel and the software design to a startup company called Microsoft... Whose laughing now!

Oh, while I remember. From one of your first messages. I know the other IAB person in my street.

Shaun.

AAAAK · Veteran Member

Hi Shanu,

You are a genius, I was reading my P3 this morning and the example you gave above about IBM was exactly what I read. I am a Fellow of IAB, I am about to apply for compliance certificate and PII.I 'll recommend them.

-- Edited by AAAAK on Wednesday 10th of March 2010 03:59:04 PM

Mike · Veteran Member

The IAB's qualifications are also formally recognised and approved by the QCA. They are also recognised by the ACCA who award exemptions for some of the higher level IAB examinations for parts of their CAT exams and also the ACCA qualification itself.

That said, my overall impression of them is that they're not particularly well marketed and hence, probably the reason why nobody's ever heard of them!

As for their website, in all honesty I think it looks incredibly old fashioned and is rarely up to date.

They probably need to enlist the services of a PR consultant to help them 'get with it' in becoming more commercially oriented in contrast to the ICB who have probably become too commercially oriented in recent years.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Mike,

I posted something about the exemptions earlier today but probably in the wrong post for most people to read it .

just cut and past it into this one :

Passing IAB deems you at a level to apply to study ACCA and the level 4 diploma in international financial reporting standards will also give exemption from ACCA paper F3.

The ICB qualification is not deemed by the ACCA sufficient to warrant any exemptions at all and those passing ICB alone are not deemed suitable to register as a student of the ACCA.

If you want to have a play with various qualification to see what exemptions they offer have a look at this link :

https://portal.accaglobal.com/accrweb/faces/page/public/accreditations/enquiry/main/EnqInstitutionsTable.jspx

Its probably the answer as to why ICB don't recognise any exemptions for the ACCA qualification as the ACCA don't seem to recognise the ICB at all. Where they do recognise and seemingly respect the qualifications of the IAB.

Says it all really!

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Lawason,

why thankyou! You certainly know how to get on my good side :)

You must now be as deep into management theory as I am in group accounts!

Have you noticed yet that Johnson. Scholes and Whittington are just recycling and rebranding other peoples idea's?

Personally I think that they're opportunists standing on the shoulders of better theorists such as Porter. Just an opinion but something you might want to think about on the run up to the exams as it shows the examiner that your thinking outside the box rather than regurgitating rote reading.

Take care and talk soon,

Shaun.

attilabenko · Guru

ICB did not say their qualification is better than ACCA. They said some accountants does not know/remember basic bookkeeping so unless they prove they do know the cannot be members of a bookkeeping body. Are they right? well, if you want i can name 100s of cases where chartered accountant was doing books of business and paid compensation to the owner at the end for hugh mistakes (in basic double entry), ok most probably the reason in most case the accountants outsource the bookkeeping to sometimes unexperienced and unqualified 'bookkeepers'.
You can study ACCA with no qualifications at all thru the mature student entry route. It is up to you if you cannot pass the exams you wasted a lot of money. And if you claim exemption you still should check the syllabus and read the study material just in case. There is a difference in bookkeeping views/terms and accounting views if you know what i mean.

RobH · Expert

I'll take you up onthat challenge atiila...but just name 100 of them! wink

attilabenko · Guru

i meant huge mistakes...shouldn,t be doing this with a hangover.

attilabenko · Guru

ok i start to make a register and pass it to you when it,s done... most of these do not get to court as it is better for the accountant to pay cash compensation for known reasons so most of it does not become public. will be in touch when the list is ready but it is gold cup today in cheltenham (that,s where i live...) so you can imagine i will be fairly busy :)

Neil · Senior Member

Imperial Commander e/w wink

Neil

RobH · Expert

Kauto or Denman???

Neil · Senior Member

Denman for me. Lovely horse.

Neil

attilabenko · Guru

I would say denman with mccoy but kauto star with ruby walsh clearly a good chance (favourite) kauto star won last year, denman the year before on the gold cup...

RobH · Expert

Ruby Ruby Ruby Ruby la la la la la la. yes it's Kauto Star for me but there have been a few upsets already this week. surprised Mcoy is able to walk after yesterdays tumbles.

attilabenko · Guru

well he can,t walk that,s why he is riding a horse...and denman is a bit of a moody horse, fingers crossed

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Attila,

I'm assuming that you have something to do with the ICB as you're both ill informed and started by quoting what they said!

Go and do ACCA paper 1.1 (now F3) and tell me it's not bookkeeping.

Now go across to accounting web and read posts at the level that accountants think in.

The problem that ICB have with the ACCA is, in my opinion that the ACCA will not consider the ICB qualification towards any exemptions from membership and you would not be able to join the MSER on the basis of that alone.

The ACCA do however rate the IAB qualification and you would be allowed onto the MSER route with that qualification, or CAT, or AAT, or ATT, or the OU Certificate in Accountancy. There's actually quite a long list but the ICB qualification isn't on it.

Even if you have a relevant accountancy qualification ACCA MSER still requires for you to have passed a required level of prior learning. That includes good grades in two A levels and 5 GCSE's (or the equivalents of) in separate subjects including Maths and English.

You mention chartered accountants (ACA's). Even as an almost qualified ACCA I wouldn't dream of belittleing the credibility of the ICAEW / ICAS! (or demi gods as they're more commonly known!).

Yes accountants get sued. Sometimes because they get things wrong, sometimes because they don't tell the client what they want to hear, sometimes because they become advocates of the client and forget their position (as was the case with Enron).

There are many cases of accountants being sued where the one doing the sueing doesn't really have a leg to stand on but the accountants still settle because it's cheaper than going to court.

I would never, have a go at the hard work and dedication of bookkeepers. Now kindly refrain from casting stones at the skill and knowledge of accountants.

Shaun. (SPQR)

-- Edited by Shamus on Friday 19th of March 2010 03:57:27 PM

Wella · Expert

Hale Flavius Aetius

Vini Vidi Vici

Semper Fi(delis)

-- Edited by Wella on Friday 19th of March 2010 12:55:07 PM

RobH · Expert

SPQR Shaun?

RobH · Expert

ah thanks Bill, my ancient Roma/Latin needs brushing up!

RobH · Expert

Atilla the Hun or Julius Caesar? There's only one way to find out...........FIGHT

RobH · Expert

Bill your knowledge of history puts me to shame, just looked up Flavius Aetius and he defeated the Huns....'nuff respec!

Wella · Expert

Rob

I did't know the latin for Amigo

Just found it, it's Amicus, which is very close

-- Edited by Wella on Friday 19th of March 2010 01:09:15 PM

RobH · Expert

Aemigeus I seem to recall!

Wella · Expert

I googled my translation but your sounds better. I totally exhausted my knowledge of latin with my two phrases but they were apt

-- Edited by Wella on Friday 19th of March 2010 01:13:35 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Amigo's

SPQR : Senatus Populusque Romanus (The senate and the people of Rome).

Attila basically kept winning by being where the main Roman army were not! If they had faced a proper Roman army rather than the infighting divided excuse that the armies of Rome had become I don't think that anyone would have even remembered Attila's name.

As it was eventually the Romans tired of fighting an invading army that they had difficulty catching and reverted to the tried and trusted tactics of hitting the Hun homeland and slaughtering every man, woman and child that they found until the invaders were forced to retreat from Roman soil.... I don't think that I'll be reverting to that tactic!

RobH · Expert

But Shaun you may have to hold up the white flag when Attila emails me his list of hundreds of chartered accountants that habe been sued for bookkeeping mistakes!