Work for free! - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

tonys · Senior Member

Work for free!

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

For a contract to exist there must be offer, acceptance and consideration.

I would allow the contract to exist but if ever you needed to get out of it then quote contract law.

However! almost as important as the consideration is the reference that you will get from the accountant so not a good idea to peeve them off.

If you've got an offer of work in the field that you want to work in and you can afford to take it then I believe that you should.

Sometimes in life loss leaders are our biggest breaks... Look at John Travolta's resurrection after doing Pulp Fiction for free!

Note that even though you are working for free it is still work and will have an effect on any social security type income that you may be receiving!

You should still be entitled to income support and family tax credits.

Hope that this helps,

Shaun.

RobH · Expert

Shaun is right, it would be an unenforceable contract. There is a fourth condition to a contract, that of it being legal...not quite sure how it can be legal if you are not being paid statutory minimum wage. Minimum wage won't come into it if youare a volunteer but as a volunteer you can withdraw at any time I would think.

My guess is, this accountant is a small, possibly home based practice who has no or few staff and you will spend your time entering up invoices on Sage, answering the phone and doing some filing. Unless you are being offered a structured courseof instruction, in which case it may well be fair to trade your efforts for their knowledge, then I would be a bit wary. What kind of practice is it Tony?

tonys · Senior Member

Thanks shaun,
I am living from the funds of the sale of my business and doing some Book-Keeping work. I wanted to give 100% commitment to a new start in Book-keeping/accountancy, so I knew it would take 6-12 months to earn anything like a wage.
I just didn't get a great vibe from this guy, but will think it over the weekend.
Any other opinions would be good
Tony

tonys · Senior Member

Rob,
Small office but looked busy with couple of staff.

RobH · Expert

There are a few things to consider including working out what your opportunity cost of doing this is. Assuming you would get £7 per hour doing an office job, then this unpaid stint is going to cost you around £4000. So what do you want for your £4000? £4k could buy you a lot of formal training. I recently joined Mercia Training for my CPD (cost me about £500). I can go on lots of CPD courses now and they run Professional Development courses like principles of bookeeping, bookkeeping case studies, Personal Tax, Business Tax, principle of auditing, MLR introductions and a whole host of other courses. You could even spend the money on one to one training. Marketing? I guess it is personalchoice and I certainly think that doing a stint of work experience is a great idea but I wouldn't go anywhere wheer they are just exploiting me (I may have this guy all wrong and he may be offering you a fantastic opportunity to learn...but I bet it will be entering stuff on Sage!)

tonys · Senior Member

Rob,
Yes I have sage and course books at home! He said he would do a training programme for me, maybe I should ask to see it?
I think 3 days is a bit much to ask really.
Gut instinct says no but I could always walk if he was taking the Mick.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Rob,

all of the major qualifications need practical experience before you can get a practicing certificate.

Similarly employers are interested in experience in practice rather than theory or even experience on a self employed basis.

As such I don't think that a direct financial comparison can be made between the experience and what it could pay for by way of additional courses.

Even entering stuff on sage is experience. If after six months Tony can use sage without thinking about it too much and he's got more confidence about how an accounts office works and he can enhance his CV with the experience then if I were him I would go with the experience over the course.

And besides everything else, after a month or so's probation I would have money on it that if he knuckles down he actually gets offered a paying job from it!

Well, that's my view. I think that even being exploited as cheap labour he should do it.

Shaun.

tonys · Senior Member

Thanks for both your thoughts, I take on board both points of view. I feel confident on Sage already. If he just dumps me on a PC and tells me to input figures into sage I would take issue with that after a while!
I mentioned an inerview last time. I didn't get job- was short listed but just missed out. (Bet to more experience)Good they made an effort to send a proper reply and not the usual "Sorry but.."
Tony

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

I note that you've gone AAT Tony. Excellent choice.

One thing to bear in mind on the experience front for AAT is that you have to get one year properly supervised experience, post qualification(!), in order to be awarded your MAAT status.

Not sure what the rules are for AAT but I know for ACCA the supervision has to be done by an accountant with a recognised qualification.

Be careful as there are a lot of people out there trading as accountants with no qualifications or qualifications that are not recognised by the major professional bodies.

By all means get a bit of experience with any practice but when you've passed your exams, make sure that the qualifications of your employer are sufficient for your needs.

Good luck with everything. Nice to see people going about this with their heads screwed on.

Shaun.

RobH · Expert

Hi Shaun,

I don't disagree with you at all, but Tony needs to properly appraise what is being offered and what the costs are. i completely forgot the need for experience to get a practising certificate, but would that be just for ACCA/ACA?

I think in a good practice, someone doing work experience who showed they could do a decent job would be offered a paid position, I just have nagging doubts here. I have been asked on several occassions to take someone on on an unpaid basis but I have always refused on the grounds that I believe you should pay even a trainee and personally if I were to take someone on on tat basis I would feel obliged to spend a lot of my time with them and I wouldn't have time to do that.

Tony, bad luck on the job interview. If this accountant just wants you to do data entry, maybe you could get a temp job doing that?

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Rob,

think that we hit enter at the same second and my last one answers yours... Spooky hey!

The government have really clamped down on unpaid apprenticeships in accountancy as they say that it gives an unfair advantage to those who can afford to support themselves and perpetuates the stereotype of those working in finance coming from privileged backgrounds.

Probably best not to mention that to anyone taking on free labour that they're doing anything untoward as people need the experience and the government that's really only trying to protect people against exploitation is actually causing a real problem for the very people that they're trying to protect.

Another example of short term thinking by those in power.... Come the revolution AS Accountancy will be on the school curriculum up there with Maths and English as a compulsary subject.

Shaun.

RobH · Expert

Accountancy AS as a compulsory subject...what about Expressive Dance?

Wella · Expert

Afternoon Amigos

AS Accountancy? Lets get them out of school with basic numeracy and literacy first.

Bill

RobH · Expert

Bill you cynic...now stand with your arms in the air and sway......yes you are a tree

tonys · Senior Member

I will sleep on it (and have a couple of drinks over weekend!) and let you know my decision.
Rob,
Don't know if you remember but I chased up a client on your advice(I had a bad week and should have rang earlier) and they seam interested. I have a good feeling on this one!Sage looks a doddle after the last job I got on sage!

RobH · Expert

That's good news Tony. Out of interest whereabouts are you?

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Afternoon Bill,

don't think that the bulk of the children around by me are too bad on the basics but I know what you mean as the education system in this country isn't exactly a level playing field.

Shaun.

tonys · Senior Member

Ormskirk, Lancs.

RobH · Expert

I'm a Londoner exiled to the West Midlands, sent to Coventry so to speak!

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

How on earth did you find Coventry from London!

I've worked in London for years and all of the maps there have London and the home counties but anything north of that just has a big warning across it of "There be Dragons here".

Actually, which part of London? I've lived in Sutton, Wimbledon and Hendon but all of my works been either in the centre or Croydon.

RobH · Expert

It was the old story, boy meets girl, boy falls in love with girl, boy is drugged, blind folded, tied up and passport shoved in mouth. I can't recall anymore of the journey but I'm not allowed home!

I wasn't from such salubrious areas Shaun, I was born in Hackney but we moved East to Loughton in Essex. For those who know Loughton, it is quite well to do, but we were from the wrong sides of the track in a place called Debden!

tonys · Senior Member

Is there much of a Northern contingent?

Wella · Expert

Small World Shaun

I lived in Epsom, Banstead and Dorking and went to Carshalton college when I left school.

Bill

-- Edited by Wella on Thursday 18th of March 2010 01:53:43 PM

RobH · Expert

Don't worry Bill, we are doing 'roots' next week, you big old oak!

Wella · Expert

Rob

Any more references to trees and I'll start to worry.

At least I'm from a sustainable source and am going to get Forest Stewardship Council certification.

Bill

Lisa Jo · Senior Member

Hi Tony, this was exactly what I did, wrote to some accountants asking for work but, I didnt offer to do it for free. I did get a job in an accountancy practice (under PAYE). The experienc Ive learned is secod to none, we dont use sage, its all manual work which was the experience I was after. I know Sage inside out and have taught it even, but manual preparation is a much better experience. Good luck & let us know what you decide.

tonys · Senior Member

Thanks Lisa, still deciding what to do!