ICB or AAT - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

Wella · Expert

ICB or AAT

Amanda · Expert

Hi Bill,

I would definately do AAT, you can't go wrong with it. With you ICB you will probably get exemptions from Foundation, not sure about the Intermediate though. Plus you get a magazine every month which I must say I enjoy reading and sad as it is I look forward to getting it. Very interesting stuff in there.

I have had the Intermediate for a while now and also doing Payroll, but I am going to bit the bullet as soon as payroll is over with and do my technicians, might as well go the whole hog. The thing is in the Financail world everyones heard of AAT. Spoke to an x-banker in the week and ended up on the conversation of AAT.

A

-- Edited by Amanda on Friday 26th of March 2010 09:20:05 PM

-- Edited by Amanda on Friday 26th of March 2010 09:21:14 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

lol. I don't think that I need to Bill!

Sorry to hear that this one got away. To be honest I think that we all know that they've made a big mistake there.

If I wasn't already so far down the ACCA route I would have gone AAT myself.

I'm pretty sure that your ICB qualifications and experience means that you should be able to start quite far up the tree.

Have a chat with Jane Hasler at Premier training about whether you could start at technician level then you would automatically be PQ AAT which is probably all that the person today was looking for!

Welcome to the dark side young Padawan.

All the best,

Shaun

RobH · Expert

Hey Bill, I'll reinforce what our fellow Amigo has said here, and if you don't get the job then they have made a huge mistake. Unfortunately perception is a large part of securing a job...I should know I have blagged my way through life for so long now that I'm actually believing the stuff I say myself. Point them to this site and you would have a dozen recommendations...more realistically maybe you should offer a couple of references from people you do work for.

Back to the point though and yes as we all know by now AAT is well regarded...but don't forget ATT, though neither bookkeeping nor accountancy, what your clients really want is to get their tax return in at the least tax cost to them. I know Shaun has expressed an interest after ACCA but I feel it is perhaps not given the relevance to our kind of work as it should. There are lots of technically superior bookkeepers and accountants on this forum than me but you need this tax knowledge in order to boost your business I believe.

Amanda · Expert

Hi Rob,

How long does it take to study ATT? And can you do it Long distance learning? I must say although it sounds boring to some, the tax side of it does interest me and like you say you can offer more services at the end of the day. My hubby will say, 'god not more study' but although I say thats enough this time, there always more that interests me and I can't help but think, study hard now and reap the benefits later, it could also help fund the children at Uni if I have a very successful business.

best go knackered tonight, had a heavy week with work! (can't complain)
A

RobH · Expert

Hi Amanda,

I did it in 1999,so I'm unsure of the syllabus now, but I did it from books in a year. It was a tough qualification and back nthen the pass rate wasn't high but well within your grasps Amanda. I have an ACCA friend who did it and said it was more thorough than the advanced tax in ACCA however there is a lot less covered overall.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Amanda,

Robs certainly got me interested in it. I'm thinking of doing the ATT as CPD and if I enjoy it I might follow it up by going for CTA.

From Bills perspective though I think AAT is a more well rounded qualification so would be of more interest to most clients.

I understand completely where your coming from. There are just so many qualifications that it's difficult to know whether one is taking the right path.

Sometimes when one looks at all of the study that one needs to do it's hard to work out where the time comes to fit some actual work into it all!

Anyway, I digress, one downside to ATT... Have you seen the price of the text books! Makes the ACCA ones look cheap! But, of course, one can self teach so at least there's no tuition provider to fork out for.

Right, got to go. talk tomorrow,

Shaun.

Neil · Senior Member

Bill, I'm sorry to hear this one went pear-shaped. It does confirm what we've heard about the perception of AAT vs ICB, though. It might be interesting to pass on your experience to the ICB and ask for their comments.

I did the AAT skillcheck and it told me I should start at Intermediate so I think it's safe to say that you won't need to do the Foundation level. I'll probably start on it this Autumn, funds allowing. Maybe we could compare notes.

It's interesting to see ATT coming up again. I had a look at this last week and have it pencilled in in my plans after AAT.

Cheers
Neil

Wella · Expert

Hi Neil

Yes it is a shame I lost this one (There is faint hope that she might ring on Monday, but I doubt it). I must admit that she wasn't my normal type of client (not that I have many!!) insomuch as, my typical clients are much smaller enterprises running from their own home. This one had a large production warehouse and I suspect her in house accountant has probably suggested she asks for AAT.

I am certainly going to look at AAT and ATT for the future; like you, when funds allow, and yes, more than happy to swap notes.

Bill

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Morning Neil,

Wonder if we can get a job lot discount on ATT study texts!

I think that you're looking at the perfect complimentary combination of qualifications there.

I've already mentioned to the ICB about the fact that nobody asks for ICB in job ad's. I think that's one of the things that they're trying to resolve with all of these ill conceived changes that are being implemented.

Personally I don't think that we'll see a change of perception by employers anytime soon. ICB will still narvest the lions share of newbie bookkeeping students due to their fasttrack to practice approach and the those with AAT will still be the ones who get all of the jobs.

I think that rather than change the qualification the ICB would have been better advised to concentrate on finding employment in practice for members. Perhaps taking the AAT charity route where people are placed for an apprenticeship period at no cost to employers.

Instead the rules for membership have been tightened to make the qualifications in some ways more comparable to that of the AAT's but with the same lack of prospects of employment at the end of it.

Even though the AAT route is more expensive (unless you do ICB via HLC!) is it not better to pay twice the money for something that works than half the money for something that doesn't!

Fingers crossed one or two newbies will be reading this and hopefully it will make them question what they've been led to believe by training providers and the ICB.

Right, that's my stint on the Saturday morning soap box done... Next.

RobH · Expert

Morning all,

Shaun are the ATT text books expensive. I seem to recall there being just a couple of BPP books for Personal tax and business tax. I got exemption from the law and basic accounts parts. Probably changed beyond all recognition now.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Rob,

the ones that I've looked at seem to be around a third more expensive than the ACCA equivalents.

Seems to be seven exams with 2 books per exam (Study text and revision kit) so around £70 in books per exam. (For ACCA would have been around £48 but there are 14 exams).

If you included pass cards it would take it up to £87 as opposed to £57. (Thats on Amazon prices rather than BPP directly which would be £100 per exam as opposed to £65).

RobH · Expert

It's expensive trying to earn a living!

Wella · Expert

It's getting to the point where I can't afford to make a living!!

Bill

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Rob,

its the time more than the cost. It seems that unless you start the studies as soon as you leave Uni then if you were to take all the exams (rather than claiming exemptions) there is no way that any of us would be able to pass everything by the time we retire!

I started my accountancy studies quite late (early 40's) so I'm being really careful at the moment what new qualifications that I take on.

Regardless of that though I am now convinced that ATT is the correct route for CPD once you have a qualification such as AAT or ACCA.

RobH · Expert

It has put me in good stead, I wish I had also studied AAT as I know my bookkeeping and accountancy skills aren't great, fortunately i am in a position now where I don't have to do too much of it. Talking to clients is easier if you know tax treatments, even if you are doing just the bookkeeping it gives extra credibility and for those of us who actually take the job further and do tax returns then it is a must.

It's funny most people have pretty much got where they are likely to get in a career by our age and then it is a question of ticking off the days until retirement. With people like us striving to make a successful business, we always know we can achieve more and retirement is the last thing on our minds. With a bit of hard work we could build a big business, certainly with grf of say £200,000...then it's either sell the business or just pop into the office a few times a week to show your face. I favour the latter as a pension, so my wizened old visage will be making appearance until they carry me off!

Gone off piste again!

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Rob,

I think that this thread is very on piste as I'm sure that it's making readers think about where they are, where they want to be and how they are going to get there.

Coming from us they know that its from the wizened old been there, done that grigade rather than the wishful thinking being sold by the ICB.

This all very much ties back to the original part of the thread about how AAT is perceived as opposed to ICB. I feel that adding bits about ATT and ACCA and how gaining further qualifications will or will not make a difference just adds to the thread.

£200k is quite an achievable goal but as you say, not by doing it yourself. I'm a bit of a control freak so really need to know everything before entrusting it to anyone else. However, I am under no illusions that as a bookkeeper being a one man band is not a real business and it's only when it turns into a proper practice that I can expect to start bringing in anywhere near the money that I used to make as a banker.

To take a quote from Pretty Woman. Everyone needs a dream. You gotta have a dream.

Mines still running the office from Ally McBeal... In an accountancy rather than legal context of course.

RobH · Expert

If you don't have a dream, how you gonna make a dream come true (gone South Pacific/Captain Sensible!).

My actual aim is closer to £500k, but that would probably take a merge with a sole practioner qualified accountant. Currently I outsource work to the value of around £26k to accountants and a further £15k to bookeepers and I wonder should I just merge and keep that money within the firm or employ a good all round accountant , someone who could take a good deal of responsibility but without the ambitionof being the owner. Or doI just muddle along like I am! Decisions decisions!

Amanda · Expert

I know what you mean shaun and Rob, I am currently thinking ahead about where I want to be in the next 5 years as the kids start getting older and I;m not needed so much. Only part-time at the mo which is fine, but in years to come I want alot more. Also we're thinking University fund thats not going to be cheap thats for sure!

But like you say if you can build on a good business thats definately the way to go, thats what I will be looking to do, will need that office in the garden soon!!!! (a big one).

A

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

I assume that you mean that the combined practice turnover would be around £500k.

That's well beyond what I'm trying for. Just feel at that sort of size it would lose the fun element and if you don't enjoy what your doing then whats the point. You would just end up becoming a slave to it.

Then again, money comes when your not looking for it and eludes you when you're chasing it... That was part of the message inherent in Jerry Maguire wasn't it. Although you could just opt for the message of "Show me the money!".

Even where you are equal partners you feel obliged to your business partner so to some extent does it also not cease to be your business?

I think that I'll stick with everything belonging to me, being answerable to nobody and hiring staff as needed as at least that way it remains my little empire... Exceedingly little empire at the moment as at the moment I'm actually the only person in it.

I have got a vision for my business but suspect that it will never achieve the financial return that yours will.

Talk in a bit,

Shaun.

P.S. You have to have a reference to a directly applicable show / film in your replies! No tyre levering any into your answers.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Amanda,

love the new pic. Very clever animals.

When I was a trainee auctioneer (Still in the sixth form which would put it somewhere in the dark ages!) they gave me the pigs to do.

Every time you could guarantee that at least one would figure out the locking mechanism on the gates (snout under peg, across, up, across, up, out).

In the six months that I was training no sheep ever figured it out!

I think that the main difference between Rob and myself will end up that his becomes a big business and mine becomes a serious business but stays manageable... Well that's my aim but who knows what's around the corner.

I know what you mean about uni funds. It's worrying me too.

Peter only starts secondary school this year but I've been putting his child benefit into a savings account for him for the last two years and if we keep it up he should have around £8000 which at least should buffer the initial costs.

Talk in a bit,

Shaun.

RobH · Expert

I need to 'gen up' a bit on old films otherwise I'll never be able to reply!

I absolutely take your point about losing control via a merger and it's strange sometimes how putting things down on paper (or here) that it gets you thinking. I'm fairly certain I could get to £200k as things are, i.e. without merging but by using good quality people , so why would I want to lose the autonomy. Perhaps the answer to that is that it is a hell of a lot of responsibility for just me. A quick merger with the right person could put me up to £250k immediately, we would then have shared overheads and of course the practce could be called 'Chartered Certified Accountants'. I think my main proviso would be that the split of responsibilities be very clear as there are certain aspects that I do not want to have the responsibility for which is the main reason for going this direction. But it would be tough to have to answer in some way to somebody else.

Amanda, I see that garden office getting much closer, I am sure you will achieve it!

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

But by doing that you immediately put yourself in a position of weakness.

I believe that you can only call yourselves a chartered certified practice if 51% or more of the partners in the practice are fully qualified ACCA who already hold a practice licence in their own right.

You can use the ACCA logo but you would not be allowed to call your firm chartered certified accountants unless 100% of the principles are ACCA. Anyone not ACCA would not be allowed to be a principle of the company.

Gets a lot more complicated if you want to offer investment advice or offer audit as a service.

If you want a more detailed low down have a glance at this :

http://www.accaglobal.com/pubs/members/professional_standards/prac_info/pih/2936961/Control_description.pdf

Methinks you might change your mind about the equality of a perceived partnership with an accountant.

Personally if I were you I would go for the £200k without a partnership rather than an immediate £250k with one. I say that as I'm pretty sure I know who would be bringing the bulk of the work into the business. You do really give the impression that you've got a gift for that side of things.

Don't know if you ever saw the Ally Mcbeal episode where she demands to be a partner. Cage and Fish sit her down and show her a pie chart which is divided in two. Half for cage, half for fish.

They then flip the page and show the scenario if she was admitted as partner.

Of course the pie chart is now in three segments. To which Richard fish states :

"so you see, if we let you in we have less".

Right, draw a circle....

See, I managed to get a show reference in!!!

Anyway, there's my two penneth for what it's worth. Bet it's made you think a bit more about the wisdom of this merger.

Talk in a bit,

Shaun.

RobH · Expert

I never saw that episode, but it has made me laugh!

Yes it has made me think. Just had an appointment with a new client (on a saturday!). If I merge, then my value of any new business I bring in would be shared...nothing is going to happen too quickly and I want to be king of this jungle (take your pick from Tarzan or Lion King!!!)