A rant.... - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

kjmcculloch · Guru

A rant....

Marky65 · Guru

Hi Kris

I have just seen the post and all of the responses and am now in the same position as you.

Whilst occassionally the accountants on the UKBF are friendly they do seem to look down their noses at us 'mere' bookkeepers. I used to go there to ask for some more detailed and specific advice, more accounting than bookkeeping, and their replies were often condescending.

If this is the general attitude of accountants then it is no wonder it is very difficult to obtain work from them and work with them.

It reminds me of the attitude of one of my clients accountants who were asked to find him a bookkeeper and for quite some time simply refused to even acknowledge his request. It makes me wonder whether they saw the lack of a bookkeeper as an opportunity to make money by providing this service but at accountants rates.
My client posted a lead on Free Index to which I responded and we have been working together for many months.

Regards

Mark

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Kris, Hi Mark,

I've not had chance to look over on UKBF but answering the immediate question about the way accountants view bookkeepers with disdain I've had several heated debates with accountant freinds of mine on this very subject.

As everyone here knows there are lots of very good bookkeepers but a problem for our industry is the training companies churning out new bookkeepers after charging them a fortune and telling them that they're going to make a fortune.

The newbie bookkeepers take on work that's beyond their skills, they give tax advice when they shouldn't. And quite often they leave a real mess in their wake.

How many of us here have had to clear up after a bookkeeper who's done some training but has little or no experience?

Unfortunately, and very unfairly, regardless of our experience, we then all get tarred with the same brush.

I don't always agree with the ICB but I admire the fact that they are trying to do something about the situation which hopefully in years to come will see us gain more respect in the eye's of accountants.

Has anyone got any other details on the incident between the ICB and the ICAEW from back in 2008? I've found quotes of Garry Carter stating that Bookkeepers are not the scum of the earth but I cannot actually find any reference to the ICAEW actually making the statement that the ICB are refuting? Maybe just a bit of ICB PR rather than an actual response but if it were true it goes some way to answering why the ICB refuse to recognise accountancy qualifications.

Anyway, just quickly send this before my battery dies. Don't misread the above with my agreeing with the way that accountants think of bookkeepers, just filling in a bit more of the background history of the situation,

Talk in a bit,

Shaun.

kjmcculloch · Guru

I totally understand what you are saying Shaun, but you get good and bad in every profession. Lets remember that anyone can call themselves and accountant too. Even in professions which are 'managed' for want of a better word you get good and bad, solicitors, doctors.

I just felt that advising people to do their own bookkeeping to save money is to say that there is no skill involved.

Kris

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Kris,

no disagreement from me there.

The accountant one is one that particularly gets my goat as it's cost me years of study and a small fortune (even though I self study) and I still haven't passed my ACCA finals yet but someone with no experience or study can set up as an accountant and there is no law to stop them.

A year or so back there was a petition doing the rounds to try and get the term account the same protection in Law that is given to doctors, solicitors and architects.

I've still got the response at home from number 10 that stated that too many people would lose their livelihood if this were enforced.... What about all of those eople who end up with fines from HMRC due to bad advice!... Oh yes, that would be a win win for the Government wouldn't it!

On the advising people to do their own accounts it pretty much depends on the person that your advising but as a general rule of thumb I would say that it is ill advised and possibly more costly to do it yourself.

It comes to mind that anyone with a bit of common sense can think that they are processng the books correctly but how often do you think that even with the simplest books they will miss the obvious simply because they don't know about how matters apply to them.

I'm thinking here about things like Mileage Rates, AIA, VAT calculations, Depreciation, Amortisation, etc. Just to name a few.

Maybe when accountants give this sort of advice they should qualify there response by stating "If you've got an accountancy / bookkeeping qualification and several years curent experience then....".

I think that for the most part those who do go it alone for one year would be unlikely to repeat the experience for a second and the mess that people can get themselves in they just end up paying us twice the amount the second year anyway to get them back out of the mess!

Shaun.

stephen72 · Senior Member

Hi All,
I think it is wrong of an accountant to tell someone to do the books themselves as the person was obviously looking for someone as they are not capable of doing them themselves.

I had a conversation with a potential client about a year ago who was considering using my services .He later rang me back and said that as he was paying me a lot less than the accountant for his bookkeeping that he did not feel that his books would be done to as good a standard as his accountant would do them.
After some discussion he said that his accountant had told him that i was only a bookkeeper and probably wouldn't have the knowledge to do the work to the same standards so he decided to stick with the accountant .
I think this only goes to further demonstrate the way in which some accountants view bookkeepers.
Stephen

BackOfficeGroup · Guru

I think it shows that the accountants in question are not qualified to give good advice - advising someone to do thier own bookkeeping without knowing the customer and their circumstances is irresponsible. And obviously they don't need the business....

Shaun, I used to class myself as an accountant, unqualified by exam and not a member of any association but that did not make me bad at my job. Its the person who is wrong and not the system. There are good and bad in every profession and even regulation will not stop this, as seen with the banking crisis and FSA now banning loads of people for giving bad advice.

However, I do agree that the bookkeeping profession is now trying to become more defined and slightly different from an accountant, seeing as the self employed/small Ltd co's do not need an accountant, but for only more complex issues.

P

chellawson · Senior Member

I am a member of UKBF and I to use to post on there but to be honest I got very fed up with them they seem to think they are better than everyone else.

I just like having another forum to chat on they just made me feel silly and that I didn't know what I was talking about. No very professional as far as im concerned.

I tried to delete my account but haven't be able to as of yet.

Alison · Senior Member

I read that on UK Business forum and would say it would have annoyed me if I was still trying to find new clients but because I am not did does not affect me personally but can see why it upsets bookkeepers who are trying to gain new clients and that the accountants are snobby.

What did annoy me on there recently is someone asking advise on how to start up a bookkeeping business and how to get new clients and I said that what worked best for me was contacting accountants by letter mainly, who referred clients to me, the accountants on UK Business forum said that could not possibly happen as the letter ends up in the bin but would say in the past before the recession 75% of my client base were gained through accountant recommendation and they did not believe me.

Alison

semsley · Guru

They can be a bit sarcastic on there, I'm always very careful what I post either as a query or in response to a question, unlike here where no-one tries to belittle others.

Stardoe · Guru

Perhaps the accountants were hoping that by advising clients to do their own bookkeeping, they would make a hash of it thus enabling the accountant to charge loads of money at year end to sort it out! But that wouldn't be very professional of them would it?!

Pauline

Dalbir · Senior Member

From my experience: those who are qualified in ICB, AAT , other equivalent quals or have certificate levels in the accounting bodies should be more recognised as bookkeepers.

Where I am challenged is with QBE or business owners doing bookkeeping work without any form of support or double checking from a qualified bookkeeper/ accountant- That's asking for trouble and is unfair on the owner.

BackOfficeGroup · Guru

Dalbir

I take offence to you saying that QBE's are not good at their job and owners asking for trouble using them! I have only become qualified via ICB because of beaurocratic changes in law and nothing to do with my abilities as a bookkeeper or accountant. Furthermore, I used to take on clients who had been with a chartered accountant only to find the work so absolutely rubbish and overpriced.

All IMHO ofcourse.

P

Quentin Pain · Senior Member

Most UK business owners hate bookkeeping (I know from 25 years experience) and prefer to get a bookkeeper than do it themselves. I always recommend newbie bookkeepers contact their local accountants as their first point of call for new business. Don't let some accountants' snootiness on a forum put you off. The accountants I know welcome bookkeepers, bookkeeping is not why they qualified as accountants in the first place, so to make contact with someone they trust to do a good job will enable a good and long term relationship - but run away if they offer you a permanent position wink

I think the relationship can sometimes seem a little like the public perceived relationship of HMRC as being some kind of demon best avoided. In my experience, if you contact them, they too are mostly helpful.

-- Edited by Quentin Pain on Monday 2nd of August 2010 09:39:05 PM

-- Edited by Quentin Pain on Monday 2nd of August 2010 09:39:28 PM

Dalbir · Senior Member

Hi Guru

As an ICB member, you are a qualified bookkeeper.

QBE work- I have seen some shocking stuff, especially on bank side. Many dont understand the concept of bank reconciliations, so in final accounts there are fudges to make the bank account balance.

If you dig deep, the whole thing unravels, as the accounts dont reflect the business's actual financial position.

Quality of work from ICB, AAT members are far far superior to QBE in my experience because of their understanding and systematic approach to double entry bookkeeping and control work such as bank reconciliations and VAT reconciliations.

Hence why I believe ICB and AAT persons should have more recognition and why I believe bookkeepers should only practice if they have qualifications from recognised bodies such as ICB.

Would you take on a gas fitter who is not corgi registered or would you be prefer to be called a snob and only take on gas fitters who is corgi registered?

I know which I would prefer

Dalbir

BackOfficeGroup · Guru

Dalbir

If a profession requires qualifications in order to trade, then you must use someone that is qualified, but if this is not a pre-requisite, then they are not essential when choosing who you use.

The idea that a qualified person is better at a job is pure nonsense. There are good people and there are bad people in all professions, its down to you to find the ones you are happy with, that can mean trial and error.

I stand by my comments previously.

P

semsley · Guru

Dalbir

I agree with Philip. Although I have an '0' level in principles of accounts and several Pitman and RSA book-keeping cerificates from the 1960s, I was never a member of a book-keeping body, however, I have many years of experience and count myself as a very competent book-keeper.

I also think your assertion that QBE book-keepers know nothing of bank reconciliation is nonsense. You don't have to be a book-keeper to know how to do a bank reconciliation. This should be done by anyone who has a bank account not just those in business and in reality is done by many.

Anyway, like Philip I took an exam with IAB (L3 computerised), although strangely enough they would have accepted me on my old qualifications and experience. However, I only did this because it was cheaper to pay membership fees than register with HMRC for money laundering. Had this bureaucratic legislisation not been introduced I wouldn't have bothered.

-- Edited by semsley on Tuesday 3rd of August 2010 09:57:41 AM

Peasie · Expert

Dalbir wrote:
Would you take on a gas fitter who is not corgi registered or would you be prefer to be called a snob and only take on gas fitters who is corgi registered?

I don't think CORGI is the recognised body for gas fitters anymore (apart from Northern Ireland).

Dalbir · Senior Member

The requirement for private practice bookkeepers to adhere with HMRC anti-money laundering regulations reaffirms that bookkeeping is something not to be taken lightly.

Competent and Responsible bookkeepers who care about their profession (like Sheila and Phil) sail through their regulatory bodys vetting and adhere to the professional code of conduct as stipulated by their regulatory body.

Those who are not regulated bookkeepers; dont carry the weight of burden of responsibility of a regulated bookkeeper. For example ICB members cannot prepare any account which he/ she is not satisfied on the materials or evidence before her/ him.

This recessionary period is especially unfair on regulated bookkeepers as the few bad apples from the unregulated bookkeeper pool can take shortcuts without the risk of facing the consequences that regulated bookkeepers (many on this forum) have.

Dalbir · Senior Member

Thanks Peasie.

Didn't realise Corgi is no longer the recognised body of gas fitters

Peasie · Expert

Dalbir wrote:

Thanks Peasie.

Didn't realise Corgi is no longer the recognised body of gas fitters

I don't think you'll be alone. I had to look up CORGI on Wikipedia to see who was the regulatory body now. And I've forgotten already. I don't know what CORGI's role is now as it still exists.

Susie Sue · Senior Member

Think it's GasSafe

ADAS · Guru

The comment seems a little naive to say the least. I've seen some appalling work by Chartered Accountants. On one occasion I had to call HMRC in for a visit because I found £80,000 in unclaimed Vat in 6 vat returns because the ledgers weren't crossed balanced and their wasn't a Purchase Ledger reconcilliation

If an Accountants client is doing their own book-keeping, how much will they charge for correction of errors? Seems like a potential false economy to me or perhaps a little self interest on behalf of the Accountant.

Tony.

dizzy lizzy · Member

Yup - been gas safe for a year or two now

to a certain extent it really was just changing the name of the scheme but engineers now have to sit exams every few years (and pass) to keep their registration.

Cheers

Liz

dizzy lizzy · Member

hehe - good old CA's and 'qualified accountants'

I had to start the payroll system in a CA's that I once worked for as the idea was just to try and figure out how much to pay at the end of the year for PAYE.

Also had to redo three years worth of accounts and SA TRs for a client who had been totally screwed over and ended up finding he had well over paid in tax as well

Very often find that in CA's practices etc unqualified staff are actually the ones doing all the 'bookkeeping' to accounts production as well as completing SA TRs - the CA really is only there to answer the difficult questions.....

Susie Sue · Senior Member

Bit scary really......

Dalbir · Senior Member

Hi Lizzy, ADAS

Am not a CA. am a CMA (and ICB member too).

My posts on this topic are about qualified bookkeepers (AAT, ICB included) versus bookkeepers with no association.

In reaction to your posts: My turn to rant

Being qualified accountant means you have a badge of honour of studying during your weekends and nights for tons of exams (which last for 3 hours each).

Also you succeeded in begging your employer to give you assignments and promotions, which will provide you with the right experience to be signed off.

Its hard on your personal life too, going through the process to become chartered (ACA, ACCA, CIMA and CIPFA).

Hats off to those who did it. My advice is for you to take that horrid journey before calling someone naive.

Dalbir

ps Qualified Accountants do not command as high fees as past generation did and need to do Continuous Professional Development to retain Chartered status.

ok rant over, need a cup of tea now.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Nicely put Dalbir,

I think that the earlie poster should consider the audience who are reading these posts. Many of us on here either have accountancy qualifications or are studying towards them.

your line about weekend and night studying rings so very true. I'm a single parent and remember when my boy was very small actually reading him the accountancy text for ACCA paper 2.2 (corporate law) as a betime story. No doubt when later in life inexplicably contract law comes as second nature to him I'll realise the damage that I did.

We've actually got quite a few ACCA and CIMA bods on here and at least one ICAEW.

I don't know if I've said welcome to the forum as I've not been on here too much recently as I'm currently working on site for one of the banks.

Anyway, if I haven't, welcome to the forum. Keep up the excellent posts,

all the best,

Shaun.

ADAS · Guru

Hi Dalbir,

Ok, firstly let me apologise if I've offended you - I should have picked a better word than "naive".

What I should have said was that in my experience, I have come across plenty of examples of shocking work by people better qualified(academically) than me. I know several QBE's who are perfectly capable of providing their clients with a good service.

You are being a little unfair though. I'm well aware of the commitment required to gain chartered status, I was a CIMA finalist before "life" changed and currently I'm studying with ICB to gain a practicing cerf.

I'd like to think my clients are happy

Tony.

-- Edited by ADAS on Wednesday 11th of August 2010 05:06:25 PM

BackOfficeGroup · Guru

Here's a question

How many clients actually know how 'qualified' their bookeeper or accountant is?

I for one have never been asked!

P

kjmcculloch · Guru

It's certainly not something I've ever been asked, but it is one of the pieces of information in my new client information pack.

Kris

ADAS · Guru

I've only ever been asked once.

Dalbir · Senior Member

Thanks Shaun for the welcome.

Cheers Tony, nice to know you also had long weekends and nights in the books too. Good luck with ICB exams. I took ICB after CIMA. ICB Self assessment exam is a really good one to prepare for life in practice.

I learnt about averaging tax scheme for artists and authors from ICB. Has anyone ever used this scheme in real life?

This is a great forum because folks on here are not afraid to ask questions, share knowledge and disagree with one another. Long may it continue.

Luv the Dallas Fetish too.

Dalbir

maha22 · Member

A vlog is a Video Blog. Blogs have a wide range of topics, pets, a diary-blog, business, etc. You CAN rant in a blog. Hell, there can be a blog ABOUT rants. Or full of rants. But a blog is just a collection of written works/videos, usually pertaining to one another, or about a similar topic. Rants are "A criticism done by ranting; A wild, incoherent, emotional articulation; To speak or shout at length in an uncontrollable anger; To criticize by ranting." So, blogs and rants are different.
=========================
Life Insurance | Life Assurance

Merlion ABS · Senior Member

its always good to use a qualified bookkeeper, same as using a qualified accountant. But in my 14 years experience, using a bookkeeper at all is down to 3 things.

1) Does the trader want to spend time doing their own books?
2) Can they afford too?
3) How complicated is it? ie VAT, Payroll, Ltd Co etc..

The way I see it is that a small sole trader who is not VAT registered should make every effort to do their own books and pass to an accountant for the year end and tax return. They should however, take advice or training to how to prepare and organise their books. Even if they use a bookkeeper for this training session it can save them money on their annual accounting fees in the long run and give them a better understanding of their business.

If their business is a little more complicated such as VAT, Payroll etc... then it is better to outsource to a qualified Bookkeeper or Accountant to do. Yes this will cost money, but it will ensure that everything is correct and they don't get into trouble with the tax and vat man.

At the end of the day, a businessman wants to concentrate on their business and not get bogged down with paperwork, after all it is what they do best.

Sometimes they just need a little education and help along the way.

kjmcculloch · Guru

I feel I must disagree with you merlion. I do think that every business owner should understand how to read and interpret their accounts. But for many it just doesn't make good business sense to do their own books.

I would agree that many could do it, but whether they should is a very different story.

For example I could put in a new bathroom suite, it may take me 4 or 5 times the time it would take a qualified plumber and may not be to the highest standard, but I could do it. On the other hand, in the 2-3 days it may take me I could easily have made double the plumbers fee on bookkeeping, therefore it would make more sense to hire a professional in that field.

It follows then, that a plumber would generally take longer to do their accounts than I would and perhaps not to the same standard. but they may be able to make 2 or 3 times the bookkeepers fee in that period.

I think the important thing to understand in all of this is that no businesses time is free. They may think it is but they could always be doing something else to earn money in that 'free' time.

Kris

Merlion ABS · Senior Member

I think you may have missed my point or I have not explained myself well enough there Kris.

I agree with your point of "But for many it just doesn't make good business sense to do their own books"

For most business's it makes more sense to pass the worry onto a bookkeeper and know that not only will it be done properly, the business owner will have time to both concentrate on the business and spend time with the family.

I like your bathroom comparison. I certainly see your point and you are correct, it doesn't make sense, but my 1st question was, "why would you put the bathroom in during work hours when you should be doing your clients work? answer : You wouldn't, you would put it in after hours and weekends. Its the same for someone doing their own books.

Not every business can afford a bookkeeper. Whats the average fee? £15 to £20 an hour? Possibly up to £30 an hour in some cases. They could easily spend in excess of £1000 a year when they could actually spend £300 for some basic training and having it all set up for them at the start and save themselves £700 in the 1st year.

That adds up to a lot over the course of a year and for a small business, its money they probably cant afford. This is why I say for small, uncomplicated business's, its actually better for them to do their own books with a some training. it would probably take 3-4 hours a month max, not a lot considering they could do it one sat morning or spend an hour once a week sorting their books out late at night.

The training part is most important. This has to be tailored to their business plan and expectations as well as what financial information they need to know.

If they arent happy doing it themselves, then yes, see your accountant, see a bookkeeper.

Overall Kris, I agree with your initial Post, Some Accountants just don't seem to have a clue sometimes.

kjmcculloch · Guru

I need to pick up on a couple of points. Firstly, your point about doing books at night or weekends. Surely ones accounts are an integral part of running their business, but you suggest this should not be done during business time day, but rather in 'personal' time?

Regarding the fees, the same could be said about many things. Download and read the HMRC guidance and do their own tax return, save themselves a lot of money on accountants fees? Sometimes this makes sense, but for many businesses it is a false economy.

I'm sure their are some people who would rather do it themselves, because after all anyone can enter figures into a system, right? Well, actually yes, they can. But that would be to say a bookkeeper is no more than a data entry clerk. A good bookkeeper is so much more. They are a source of advice, they are able to determine which items should go through the business and which shouldn't. I have many clients who would happily put their full living expenses through their business. They are also on hand, as I was recently, to hand hold through a HMRC visit. This is what businesses are paying for, not someone to type in figures.

Please don't get me wrong, there are business owners out their who are perfectly able and capable, and I do understand that in the current climate there are many who will be looking to make chops and the bookkeeper will be first in many cases. My real problem was with one particular accountant who appeared to be saying that bookkeepers are an expensive luxury that businesses can do without.

Kris

Merlion ABS · Senior Member

Yes, Accounts are an integral part of running a business and are a vital tool in both planning, running and growing a business. There is no set time to do books, but from a business owners point of view, they would most likely do it out of business hours. I'm not saying its right, but that just from my experience.

I for one dont do my own books in business hours, but that's just due to the nature of how I run my business. its simple and not many transaction so takes me about an 45 mins a week to sort.

As for the Accountant you have difficulties with, well....that accountant obviously has never gotten out of the office much and seen what its like in the big wide world. I would steer clear big time.

Yes it would be nice if all business's could have a bookkeeper, but they can be neither expensive or a luxury if you pick a good one. I pride myself on not only offering a good all round bookkeeping service to my clients, but I also offer an outside perspective of their business, both tell and show them where their problems lie, help them understand their figures and how their business is performing, educate them in how their books are to be kept and processed and I do it for a fraction of the cost an Accountant would charge for doing the same work. And I sometimes do it as a free extra.

The problem with some accountants and it seems that way with the one you have encountered, is that they don't help the little guys. the ones that don't really provide great fee income. So basically they get the clients to do their own book stating it saves on bookkeeping fees, so that the accountant can charge a few extra quid for themselves.

Unfortunately, many Small clients are overlooked, yet it is these that make up the bulk of a town accounting practice.

I feel your pain and I would always recommend getting a good bookkeeper. They are essential to running a good business and its certainly the way to run a successful one.

Anyway its late. so I'm off to bed.

Night all.