ICB Level 3 Manual studies with Ideal School - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

ICBUK · Guru

RE: ICB Level 3 Manual studies with Ideal School

kjmcculloch · Guru

James, I don't care how I am on your system. I bought my course from HLC NOT stow, the books on my shelf are HLC books. I applied through the HLC website and was visited by a HLC salesman in a HLC car, signed a HLC form and pay money to HLC, what does that suggest to everyone else? HLC or Stow College?

No you never did receive a complaint, and quite honestly when I see how you reacting here I am glad I didn't waste my time.

No it's not an ICB forum, but you sell ICB ideas on it, therefore I can ask questions. I do not force you to respond in any way, shape or form. That is your own free choice.

I am happy to have this discussion with the other members, you don't need to reply. But I think others can make up their own mind from the way you have replied so far.

ICBUK · Guru

Kris you are making statements such as the ICB don't care about it's members. Obviously I am going to stand up for the ICB. Especially when the ICB was never told you were unhappy with the course.

The ICB only knows, and can only act on, information it is given.

john Boy · Veteran Member

To be fair James you are keen to take credit when credit is due on this forum, such as the reaction to the level 4 syllabus.

Kim has a right to let others know his experiences with HLC so others dont go down that expensive, waste of time route.

I notice you do more than reply to members queries and use this as an place to advertise the ICB, rightly or wrongly. It is a forum and people are wise enough to know that you will be coming form an ICB perspective and your input is greatly appreciated.

But i believe to improve we must listen to critcism and well as praise, such as in our markers feed back?

kjmcculloch · Guru

I asked many questions James. You've answered... erm.... None!

All you keep saying is the ICB care, you are wrong!

How much do the ICB earn from HLC?

Kris

-- Edited by kjmcculloch on Tuesday 2nd of November 2010 04:54:13 PM

ICBUK · Guru

OK last post biggrin

John Boy, I fully agree, however, all the ICB knows from Kris is he bought a course quite a while ago, passed with good grades.

Now the ICB and all on this forum are being told the ICB doesn't care.

I think that is rather unfair, especially since the ICB does a lot to make sure colleges follow strict rules, and the ICB was not told Kris was unhappy. Maybe if Kris rang or emailed the ICB when he was doing the course something could have been sorted.

kjmcculloch · Guru

I agree 100% with John. If you are going to sell yourself as the ICB rep, then you will receive feedback, good and bad. Yes, you are able, so far, to advertise the ICB, but as John says, live by the sword... You will receive negative comments which should be taken on board and not just dismissed as you seem to do a lot with them.

I am only surprised I've not received a call from you yet this time.

Kris

kjmcculloch · Guru

James,

I struggle to see how you could sort something that was in the past, it had happened. I did complain to HLC, but it went no where. Eventually you need to put it down to experience and move on, but that wont stop me from sharing that experience with others. You'll notice from my initial post I was airing my frustrations with HLC. I did comment that I did not think it was a great ambassador for ICB, but you choose to pick up on this and run with it.

We're not stupid here. We realise when you say HLC put 400ish students a month to ICB that's a huge amount of money to turn away. All I was looking for in later posts is some honestly. Lets face it, it will all come down to money eventually. ICB will turn a blind eye to sales practices of HLC because they ultimately get a good flow of new members from it.

I believe that is the truth in a nutshell, and through all of your posts you've said nothing to convince me otherwise. Others can, and will make up their own mind.

Kris

-- Edited by kjmcculloch on Tuesday 2nd of November 2010 05:10:28 PM

sally-anne · Veteran Member

It seems to me that HLC are not being monitored by AAT ICB and any other course that you go with. It just makes me mad it is all about money at the end of the day.!!!!

sally-anne · Veteran Member

I totally agree with every thing you say Kris, AAT are getting a huge amount of money out of HLC because the first years membership is included in there fees, most likely the reason AAT are turning a blind eye.

sally-anne · Veteran Member

Home Learning AAT Level 3

Kaplan £600
Eagle around £600
Premier Training £579
HLC £2200

kjmcculloch · Guru

I quickly worked out some rough figures since none have been forthcoming:

James says HLC put 300-400 new members per month to ICB. If we take that as a conservative 300, in student fees, and level 1 and 2 exam fees alone that's £540,000 per year just from HLC.

Say 50% of these upgrade to affiliate membership that's another £135,000 per year. Then if 25% take a practice license that's £63,000 per year.

These are obviously my estimates as this was one of the questions not answered. But I estimate HLC put just under three quarters of a million pounds ICB's way per year, probably a lot more when you take into account members will probably stay with ICB for a number of years.

James would have you believe ICB is a member owned organisation who are accountable to the membership. I've had a look round the website and still can't see their annual accounts.

Kris

kjmcculloch · Guru

ICBUK wrote:
We get letters saying how wonderful HLC are, they are above national average with their results.

They also are no way near the most expencive bookkeeping course I have seen.

I thought since I was now answering my own questions I'd post this for information of others, which flys in the face of the official ICB line from James.

This is for level 1 and 2 manual:

Premier Training £280 (membership and exam fees not included)

Open Study College £415.20 (includes membership but not exam fees)

Kaplan £263 (membership and exam fees not included)

HLC £1176 (membership and exam fees included)

Just also while looking at HLC site they are still quoting that if you complete level 1 and 2 you can command a salary of up to £35,000 per annum. This is similar to what I was told a few years ago. There is huge demand for bookkeepers, do this course, set up a practice and you can earn £3,000 per month, easy.

Kris

Wella · Expert

Ideal Schools are running their combined level I & II manual course for £359. Includes ICB registration but not exam/ membership cost

Bill

john Boy · Veteran Member

Kris,

i have asked why they do not produce annual accounts like the other accountancy bodies and got no reply.

There does seem to be a lack of transparancy in this.

AAT link is below, which gives the sort of accounts one would expect from a membership body.

kjmcculloch · Guru

I think its the same story from James time and again. You are the ICB expect when you want information. I asked a number of questions in this thread, he answered none of them.

They were:

How much do the ICB earn from HLC?

To confirm his statement with evidence that many providers charge more than the HLC for ICB courses.

Does the ICB think it's right that HLC sales people use pressure selling such as telling potential members they have a one time only deal, or that they can earn hugely inflated salaries from taking their courses?

From information I found and Bill has supplied I think we can take the statement that:

They also are no way near the most expencive bookkeeping course I have seen.

as an unsubstantiated myth.

There is a huge lack of transparency, I agree.

Kris

Wella · Expert

In James' defence

He may not be privy to the information being asked and would probably not be permitted to divulge it even if he was.

I too find it frustrating that the information is not made available to members though.

I had dealing with HLC when i was looking around for a course provider, made the mistake of calling them. Took ages to shake them off and get the picture I didnt want to take it any further. The resaon I phoned them was their more prominent advertising (I eventually went for ideal schools after following their link on ICB website. I cannot comment on the standard of training from HLC but I voted with my feet because of the prices being quoted and their high pressure sales techniques.

Bill

john Boy · Veteran Member

Kris,

have you looked on companies house for the ICB's accounts? they cost £1 but they may make interesting reading.

There are eventually there after being delivered 25 days late.

kjmcculloch · Guru

No, I haven't. I was on companies house for other things today but the websearch kept crashing. I may have a look.

Kris

john Boy · Veteran Member

well i have a copy it makes interesting reading, well from what you cant make out from abbreviated accounts.

-- Edited by john Boy on Wednesday 3rd of November 2010 04:58:13 PM

Peasie · Expert

What sticks out as being interesting?
(I'm trying to save £1)

kjmcculloch · Guru

Hi Bill,

I do agree with you to an extent. My issues is not so much that James doesn't know the answer to these, or even that he hasn't said whether he does or not. I don't even care that he come on and bangs the ICB drum, or recruits people through the forum.

My big issue is that he blast about unsubstantiated nonsense.

For a start he tells me that I was not an HLC student. That HLC are cheaper than many bookkeeping training providers, but refuses to say which.

He says that ICB care more about members than money, does that really ring true? How can you tell unless you have figures to balance it up against?

I don't have any issues with the ICB as an organisation, after all I am a member, what I do have issues with is ICB caring more about the providers of training than members. Even when these training providers are lying to, and ripping off these same members. How can that be reflective of a caring organisation?

Kris

john Boy · Veteran Member

Peasie,

Net assets of £196,382, current liabilites of £276,383, net current assets/liabilites (80,001)

Loss for the year (23,133)

looks a bit precarious to say the least!

Peasie · Expert

I was looking at the figures I obtained for free from thesmehub.com but they weren't the latest ones. I wonder how long it takes for the latest figures to appear there - I only started using that site yesterday. A handy site nonetheless.

Maybe sometime in the future it will be possible at Companies House to look up a companies figures over the previous x amount of years for comparison's sake and the cost will be negligible. I spent a couple of hours using that site to look up random local companies. But as accounts are abbreviated now it isn't much use.

kjmcculloch · Guru

Maybe a loss is the reason for the new compulsory £55 centre based exam for level 2 manual bookkeeping? Or the desire not to loose HLC as a student provider. I suppose it makes some sense now.

Kris

ICBUK · Guru

Ok lets compare exam fees:

IAB Level 2 via distance learning £640 (5 exams)
IAB Level 2 via self study £725 (5 exams)

ICB Level 2 via either method £80 (2 exams

Not sure why your complaining Kris biggrin

(fees taken from IAB website)

ICBUK · Guru

Oh I forgot to mention the £55 is probably a loss (most other Pearson Vue exams are around £100), and where I don't know about accounting or the ICB accounts, that might have attributed to it.

kjmcculloch · Guru

Unfortunately James, after the nonsense you have already come across with in this thread, I don't know whether to believe you or not.

Kris

semsley · Guru

Last year for CPD points, I did IAB Level 3 computerised through a college (attending weekly classes) and the total cost including exam fees was £60.

kjmcculloch · Guru

Thanks for that Sheila, it's nice to have some more honest objectivity.

Kris

gazal · Veteran Member

Hmm. Interesting and easy to work out. Without HLC ICB would cease to exist. Now that is an unfortunate position to be in. having said this ICB should not be accountable for the actions of HLC and as long as HLC maintaing any standards set by ICB then there is nothing they can do.
If someone pays a high price for a course then that is their choice, and lets face it we have all purchased something and then found out later that we could have got it cheaper. Do we complain to the manufacturer? no, we complain to the supplier so no doubt ICB do not get the complaints. However I do think that James chould concentrate on the task of maintaining the standards of ICB rather than defending a well known green mile candidate.
Trading standard have probably got an alphbetical file full of complaints about HLC and any awarding body should beware of association. Come on ICB, dump HLC and start backing and supporting the members and training providers who care, promote and enhance your image rather than those who tarnish. You deserve better.

ICBUK · Guru

Hi Gazal,

Good points there, mainly the one that if ICB receives no complaints and HLC meet standards there is nothing ICB can do. ICB can only act on information it has.

ICB has 'reviewed' HLC before, during which time accreditation was halted. Last time was in 2008 (since Kris bought his course).

HLC went through a major change, changed management (and I think that is when they stopped working with Stow?).

Since then their results have improved.

There is a monthly review on all colleges, Octobers for HLC went something like, results: above national average, complaints: 0. Result: Pass.

As far as ICB is aware, HLC is now preforming well (better than national avarage) and so cannot and will not withdraw accreditation.

You can rest assured that if they are on the ICB's website, they are preforming well. The ICB has dropped colleges that are bigger than HLC before, and has refused to work with others (can't mention them don't want to get sued smile

).

sally-anne · Veteran Member

I can not for the life of me believe that HLC have had no complaints, I know of 100 people who are totally disgusted with HLC in the first six months of this year. When you write a letter of complaint to them they never even bother to answer, hence your figures most likely the reason for being nil. I started the AAT level 3 with them in Jan of this year, paid £2300, and still not done any exams, due to the major cock up they have made changing over to the new QCF framework, there new study books for this new level are totally full of errors, would like AAT to have a look at them and see what they think. God it makes me so mad that ICB are defending them. What a bloody disgrace. I have lost a lot of money over this and their lies from their sales reps leaves nothing to the imaganation.

ICBUK · Guru

Hi Sally-Anne,

Have they told AAT? If no then what do you expect the AAT or ICB to do?

I think the main problem is that people expect the professional bodies to read minds, we can't.

If you don't tell the professional body about your college, all they have to go on is the success rate, if that is high (in HLC's case it is) then that is a tick in the box.

sally-anne · Veteran Member

I like many others have complained to the AAT and the finance company, i am still waiting a reply from AAT, HLC have not got the courtesy to even answer our letters of complaint, thats a warning sign we are dealing with a duff company, customer service i would have thought would be paramount to a good company. I wanted to do this qualification to get a better job and provide a better life for my children and myself, looks like i have been conned in a big way. If letters of complaints are not being answered we do not stand a cat in hells chance.

ICBUK · Guru

Hi,

Oh dear, well at the ICB our complaints procedures are dealt with pretty quickly.

Depending on what the complaint is, the ICB will acknowledge the complaint first, normally with the next steps in the procedue.

It does depend on the severity, but for example students sometimes complain they were not on the registra from their college, and therefore not registered with the ICB. This can be sorted out normally within an hour and the student is contacted again by the ICB to confirm the problem has been solved.

If you are complaining about lies from the college, well I guess depending on what those lies are the ICB would sort it out as quickly as possible and organise some sort of compensation in terms of a free exam or something??

But you would always get contacted by the ICB to let you know the complaint has been received and being delt with.

attilabenko · Guru

Hi,

I don't like politics!
I said in a different topic before, once I requested further info on HLC courses from them and before anything happened they did a credit check on my credit file. I do not appretiate these sort of things! I only wanted some prices on their courses and that's what they do. I complained to them, to ICB and to Equifax, too. HLC did not care about my opinion on the matter, they just said when you fill in your details to request further info it say it in small print on the buttom of page they might do a credit check. Ok my fault i did not read it, but i did not think to get a brochure requires credit check. I emailed to ICB they said there is nothing they can do. The only people seemed to be interested was Equifax, at least they take their job serious.

I can see a problem with all professional bodies, you complain, the most they will do is to try to correct errors and mistakes to make HLC courses better, what is fine but I think a lot of peoiple would rather have them removed from the accredited or recommended or whatever training providers list.

Maybe they are not the most expensive college but they are definietly more expensive than other schools/colleges ( double the price of the average course fees!!!)

About their sales techniques and the following is OPINION ONLY (no facts whatsoever!)
To get a sales job with them you probably have to have double glazing sales experience as a minimum and if you have conservatory sales experience you probably can get an area manager position....

James my problem with them is not tutor support, I never got to that stage with them - anyway if the tutors are ICB members it really is good for students, if they would have teaching experience it would be even better.
My problem is their prices, their unfair, pushy sales and those facts they are telling you (others could call them lies) through the initial brainwash about how many bookkeepers we need and how much money you can earn. Reminds me to early days of a company called Amway (no offense)

I have patience, more than most people. I only filled in an info request and talked to them twice on phone and that's how much they upset me, this says it all to anyone who knows me. I never gonna forget my experience with them and NEVER going to recommend them to anyone in fact I will discourage everyone to do anything with HLC.

We must do something against them, they had their chances to improve...

PS Back to the original topic I had really good experience with Ideal Schools.

kjmcculloch · Guru

ICBUK wrote:

(can't mention them don't want to get sued ).

Yet you appear to be happy to share the information ICB hold on me with all and sundry.

Kris

ICBUK · Guru

Hi Attila,

Unfortunatly if they do follow the law the ICB cannot punish them as such. Obviously if there are a number of complaints the ICB would fill out a report and request a change to be made. As the ICB responded to your complaint it would have been recorded, and probably mentioned to HLC to make their small print less small.

What did Equifax do?

The ICB took a decision not to be involved with course prices a while ago due to various price wars and constant changes. So I cannot comment on price. However, the ICB does recommend shopping around.

I hear your comments about sales people, however this is the world we live in. I went to buy a phone the other day but walked out because the pushy sales person annoyed me. That doesn't mean I think the shop should be shut down, sales techniques is something that has been around for thousands of years.

However, if they lie the ICB will step in to stop this (if the ICB is told about it).

Kris: what information?

ICBUK · Guru

Guys I think you have to try and see it from the Professional bodies point of view, they are just people like you sitting around a table (some of which actually trained with HLC).

There will be complaints about colleges, but there are also letters of praise. I know the ICB do monitor these things, and like I said earlier there is a monthly review and report sent to the colleges.

If the review looks good then the accreditation will continue.

sally-anne · Veteran Member

You can tell James is one of the shiny pants brigade, money is of no object to him. Why should we be sold courses and be told blatant lies from pushy sales people. I also will not recommend HLC to any person.

attilabenko · Guru

Hi James,

Personally I don't think there is much the ICB can do about this apart from considering removing HLC from the list of providers. And even that as you said if the results are good would not make much sense in the point of view of ICB.
But than again how much of the glory is HLC's? If you pay £1000 for your course you make sure you pass your exam with good results. That is psychology!
And when the next day you find the same course for half the price with some other college you will be very upset, that's psychology,too.

I am not telling you these things in terms of you represent ICB but trying to have a conversation...

There is etics in sales,too and HLC does not seem to follow any. (they don't have to by law, but...). We all know about the not named phone companies,too but at least you can cut a good deal with them. My favourite is take insurance on your phone, they will push it so ask them to give you £60 instant cash back for taking the insurance and cancel it the next day. You walk in with nothing, come out with new phone, good deal and money in your pocket. All you have to do is listen to them and be smarter than they are. If you know what their company expect from them you can play your cards wisely. ;)

But there is no such deals with HLC so I can see a difference between these two.
Still, you are right it is not the ICB's or AAT's job to judge colleges' sales techniques and prices but it is their job to make sure study materials are correct,etc ( that is to Sally-Ann reg. AAT)

I purposly ignored this topic for long time but I could not resist any longer :(

ICBUK · Guru

I know I tried to avoid it too but got caught in.

I just want people to understand the professional bodies point of view.

I have an idea though, maybe I should put forward a proposal to add 'Forum Feedback' into the monthly reports, as currently it is not included so all of this is practically ignored by the reviews.

However the problem is that we don't know who these people are, or when they bought the course.

I agree with the psychology bit, and like you say, it is not really the ICB's place to dictate how much to charge for a course etc.

sally-anne · Veteran Member

When you think about it HLC are breaking the supply of Goods and Services Act 1982, regarding the huge amount of errors in there study books, and they even have the AAT logo on them. Well thats all I am saying on this subject as it actually makes my blood boil.

attilabenko · Guru

I spoke to a girl a few months ago who bought an ICB payroll course from HLC for something like £1200 which included Sage payroll trial, she hardly had a choice to buy or not to buy because of the pushy sales. I know about another school who does the same course for about half the price with the full version of the software.
She paid for ICB course but half way through she does not know what ICB is or what she will get from the course or what exams she has to take,etc. Before I spoke to her she thought she complets her assignments and that's it. I told her about what ICB actually is and if she takes the actual ICB exams she will get the qualification. She knew nothing about these.
She is not happy with the tutor support,either and she does not know what to do now. She put her studies on hold because she is so disappointed. If she does not continue she wasted £1200. I told her to complete the qualification at least self study but after her study experience with HLC she thinks she would not be able to.

It is not ICB's fault but hers and HLC's.

She is probably one of many people with the same experience. She never going to complain to ICB as she did not even know what it is. She should have shopped around before buying the course and she should have looked up the awarding bodies and their rules,too.
Only thing she knew is she wanted to learn payroll.

Personally I think she only can blame herself but still it is sad nothing can be done.
I thought I share this with everyone.

attilabenko · Guru

James,

Does ICB do a Sage Diploma in Payroll Managment? Is it called sage diploma? Just seen it on HLC website above diploma awarded by ICB...it is in the Course Benefits

http://www.homelearningcollege.com/Courses/Book-Keeping/Sage-Instant-Payroll/

And that is the small print MAGNIFIED from the request course info page of HLC...
I just still don't understand why do they do credit check if i want course prices...when I ask for course prices or info I do NOT ask for credit in any way or form.

HOME LEARNING COLLEGE WILL NOT DIVULGE YOUR INFORMATION TO ANY THIRD PARTIES FOR MARKETING PURPOSES WITHOUT YOUR CONSENT. WE MAY IN THE FUTURE INFORM YOU ABOUT OTHER COURSES OR SERVICES, WHICH MAY BE OF INTEREST TO YOU, EITHER BY MAIL, TELEPHONE OR EMAIL. PLEASE CONTACT US IF YOU WOULD PREFER NOT TO RECEIVE THIS INFORMATION. HOME LEARNING COLLEGE WILL NORMALLY CONTACT CREDIT REFERENCE AGENCIES WHO WILL KEEP A RECORD OF THESE ENQUIRIES. I AGREE THAT INFORMATION ON THE PERFORMANCE OF MY ACCOUNT(S) MAY BE SHARED WITH CREDIT REFERENCE AGENCIES AND MAY BE USED BY OTHER LENDERS FOR CREDIT ASSESSMENT. IF HLC ARE UNABLE TO PROVIDE FUNDING DIRECTLY WE MAY INTRODUCE YOUR DETAILS TO TRUSTED THIRD PARTIES WHO MAY CONTACT YOU TO DISCUSS OTHER CREDIT AND/OR FINANCIAL SERVICES (THERE IS NO COST TO YOU AND YOU ARE UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO PROCEED) PLEASE WRITE TO US IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THIS. I AM INTERESTED IN FINDING OUT MORE ABOUT THE RANGE OF COURSES PROVIDED BY HOME LEARNING COLLEGE; I AGREE THAT YOU MAY CALL ME REGARDING THIS ENQUIRY. I UNDERSTAND THAT A COURSE ADVISOR MAY VISIT ME AT MY CONVENIENCE TO GIVE PRE-ENTRY GUIDANCE AND HELP TO CHOOSE THE COURSE THAT'S RIGHT FOR ME. I UNDERSTAND I AM UNDER NO OBLIGATION AT ANY TIME.

-- Edited by attilabenko on Monday 15th of November 2010 02:25:12 PM

Peasie · Expert

Maybe they do the same thing as Ideal Schools (remember them - the subject was originally about them) - if you pass all their assignments you are awarded a diploma from Ideal Schools. You still have the pass the exam from ICB to get the ICB diploma. Ideal Schools make this clear, maybe HLC are the same but are not making it clear.

attilabenko · Guru

They do make it clear (not).
Qualification: Sage Diploma in Payroll Managment
Awarding Body: Institute of Certified Bookkeepers

If you click on the link above and click on course benefits you can see it yourself...I think it is a bit misleading, but maybe I am not up to date with ICB qualifications.

ICBUK · Guru

Hi,

They are calling their course the Sage Diploma in Payroll Managment and it is accredited by the ICB and leads to the ICB's Level III Diploma in Payroll Management.

It is a bit confusing, most colleges just call their courses by the name of the qualification you receive (ICB Level 2 etc), this has been mentioned to them.

With regards to the girl you mention Attila, get her to contact the ICB we can swap her tutor. It is odd as HLC tutors are ICB members so they tend to be more active. Are you sure its an ICB course?

gazal · Veteran Member

It is hard to resist this conversation as we all know someone who knows someone and even someone who knows first hand.

The link with Stow College was to tap into ILA Scotland funding.

There are numerous web sites owned by a third party selling HLC courses but make no mention of the company who will provide the courses.

The descriptions of services and products are exremely misleading.
I could go on and on but at the end of the day HLC could be prosecuted as they were when they traded as Learning Library, pay the fine, serve the sentence and start trading under a different name. There is a masive undercover investigation going on and no doubt something will result from it but it wont stop them.

People have to wise up and stop falling for the old tricks that as James said have been going on for centuries. awarding bodies can do nothing about it as long as a training provider ticks the boxes and performs to a standard. The only damage to an awarding body is when they are seen to be involved, and in this case it seems that ICB are being tarnished for being involved.
Perhaps inviting HLC onto this forum would be of benefit to all if it were to happen. Well if we cant dream there is no hope.