I have been reading some of the posts on this forum as well as having experience with dealing with bookkeepers and one thing always amazes me. There seems to be a thing about just using Sage or perhaps Quickbooks.
When explaining transactions and bookkeeping issues how to record it on sage seems to be prevelant, rather than explaining the bookkeping techniques required.
Also I come across a lot of people who use just Sage or Quickbooks and won't touch any other packages. This comes down to training providers who also seem intent on using this as the only package.
This raises a couple of issues
You are restricting your market
Surely bookkeeping is the skill and Sage is just a tool?
Is Sage really the best package around?
Incidentally I have also seen it in reverse where accountants will only take on clients if they change to Sage - in my opinion it should be about what the client is most comfortable with.
All software packages are based on the same principles and the output should also be the same.
A bit of a ramble I know, will look at writing an article on this I think! Would love to hear other peoples opinions.
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Phil Hendy, The Accountancy Mentor
Are you thinking of setting up your own practice or have you set up and need some help?
If so a mentor may be the way forward - feel free to get in touch and see how I can assist you.
Think you have a good point there, unfortunately it is a bit of a chicken and egg situation. Most businesses use Sage, therefore Sage is very well known, therefore training providers will advertise Sage courses, therefore most people are trained on Sage, therefore most businesses use Sage.
However it is changing slowly. The ICB's computerised tests used to be Sage tests, however they are now non software specific because a lot of bookkeepers are now using other packages.
There has also been a rise in the use of the smaller accountancy packages in the UK , partly thanks to cloud computing, making it easier for them to compete, and also that most of them export to Sage for the accountant
The ICB is trying to move bookkeepers away from a dependency on software, and therefore a dependency on a particular software package.
Lets see how it goes.
I would be very interested in that article if you write one.
I agree! I did some training on Sage initially as that was the software used by the training company that I used, but then when I started the business I was using Tas Books (I forget how that came about now, too long ago!). Tas in my opinion is far better than Sage, much more flexible, easier to use, cheaper etc. Unfortunately when Tas got bought out by Sage the cost went up far too much.
I still use Tas, but in an unsupported manner! I also use/have used VT Transaction, Quickbooks and Kashflow. I don't find it an issue to pick up a new system as if you understand the basics behind bookkeeping (ie learnt it manually first) then you should be ok whatever you use.
Unfortunately accountants are fixated with Sage. Luckily I have less than a handful of clients that I don't do the whole package for so it's not really an issue anymore, but certainly was in the past. Often we would end up printing out reams of paper for the accountant because we weren't using Sage and so couldn't send them a backup.
I had a client who started with me around a year ago now, had been doing his not particularly complex books manually for 14 years, his existing bookkeeper had left and the replacement insisted on using Sage despite the client not wanting to, made him buy it and then spent hours (at the clients cost) transferring the info onto it and getting it set up. The client could no longer find information in his own accounts and she then subsequently left anyway. They phoned me and explained the situation and we're now back to doing it manually. He's happy, I don't mind a change from computer based work, everyones a winner.
Sometimes you just have to do what the client wants!
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Jenny
Responses are my opinion based on the information provided. All information should be thoroughly checked before being relied on.
Unfortunately accountants are fixated with Sage. Luckily I have less than a handful of clients that I don't do the whole package for so it's not really an issue anymore, but certainly was in the past. Often we would end up printing out reams of paper for the accountant because we weren't using Sage and so couldn't send them a backup.
It is amazing the attitude of accountants. One of the bookkeepers I was mentoring went to a networking meeting and was speaking to an accountant. She said she didn't really use Sage, so the accountant said she couldn't use her as a referral as all of their clients used Sage.
This bookkeeper is now a regular referrer of work to me!
The accountant couldn't see beyond Sage - madness!
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Phil Hendy, The Accountancy Mentor
Are you thinking of setting up your own practice or have you set up and need some help?
If so a mentor may be the way forward - feel free to get in touch and see how I can assist you.
Interesting thread thread Phil. I'm one of the Quickbooks users on here just really because it was alot cheaper when starting out, I no longer have support on it but to be honest don't really need it so its OK. Saying that I enquired about adding Payroll to my package and it was well expensive so won't be, instead I will try something else when the time comes.
I was sage trained years ago and do use 1 sage instant package for 1 client only because the accountant won't use anything else.
I use excel for one of my clients as it suits his work far better.
I have found an accountant recently that won't use sage at all which did surprise me, they use QB instead.
Interesting thread thread Phil. I'm one of the Quickbooks users on here just really because it was alot cheaper when starting out, I no longer have support on it but to be honest don't really need it so its OK. Saying that I enquired about adding Payroll to my package and it was well expensive so won't be, instead I will try something else when the time comes.
I was sage trained years ago and do use 1 sage instant package for 1 client only because the accountant won't use anything else.
I use excel for one of my clients as it suits his work far better.
I have found an accountant recently that won't use sage at all which did surprise me, they use QB instead.
cheers
Amanda,
Do you know the reasons why the accountants will only use either Sage or Quickbooks?
My only assumption can be that they don't want to pay to have more than one package in the office. This is where the online packages are really going to excel as they can just hand over instant access to the live data on any system. For Sage and Quickbooks clients I personally tend to pdf the relevant reports direct from the client system, either by getting the client to do it or remote access (or a site visit).
Incidentally I have found 12pay to be very good for my payroll clients.
Phil
__________________
Phil Hendy, The Accountancy Mentor
Are you thinking of setting up your own practice or have you set up and need some help?
If so a mentor may be the way forward - feel free to get in touch and see how I can assist you.
Yes I have phoned up 12pay and they seemed very good on the phone, its something I will have to do in the next few months.
I do think SAGE is really expensive and to be honest quickbooks does in my opinion a really good job for far less which when you are starting out does have a bearing on it all. I do agree with Jenny that you do need to know the basics manually first before doing sage or anything else. There are not many Accountants near to me that actually use QB's although a family member in the Financial industry has used it for years and swears by it.
Maybe that when Sage first got into the accountant's practices there prices were alot lower and perhaps it appeard to be good value? Only a guess.
-- Edited by Amanda on Thursday 6th of January 2011 04:50:14 PM
I'd be interested to know what software anyone would recommend I look at, I have 11 years experience of bookkeeping and accountancy work and am in the early sages of planning setting up my own business (I'm looking into all the stuff like practicing licences, money laundering regs, PII etc, etc).
I have in the past used Sage and Quickbooks mainly but also CashFlow Manager (and of course Excel!) but it was always what I was told to use! Now I'm in a position to make the decision so what other software should I be looking at! I'd like any recommendations good or bad!
Thanks
GinnyBee
-- Edited by GinnyBee on Thursday 6th of January 2011 05:32:28 PM
I'd be interested to know what software anyone would recommend I look at, I have 11 years experience of bookkeeping and accountancy work and am in the early sages of planning setting up my own business (I'm looking into all the stuff like practicing licences, money laundering regs, PII etc, etc).
I have in the past used Sage and Quickbooks mainly but also CashFlow Manager (and of course Excel!) but it was always what I was told to use! Now I'm in a position to make the decision so what other software should I be looking at! I'd like any recommendations good or bad!
Thanks
GinnyBee
-- Edited by GinnyBee on Thursday 6th of January 2011 05:32:28 PM
Ginny, you may have missed part of the point of my thread. Get the software that the client wants, also get them to pay for it!
If you feel you are going to go down the route of specialising you may want to consider using one of the online packages. Whilst they offer partner programmes you don't actually need to sign up. Just use separate logins for each client. I sell licences for KashFlow, feel free to have a look at their trial offer.
Also if you are setting up, why not have a look at my site which offers advice to new bookkeepers and accountants in the areas that you mentioned.
__________________
Phil Hendy, The Accountancy Mentor
Are you thinking of setting up your own practice or have you set up and need some help?
If so a mentor may be the way forward - feel free to get in touch and see how I can assist you.
I use Sage, Quickbooks and Excel - I've looked at Solar which seems good. I've recently changed from Sage Payroll to 12 Pay purely on a cost basis. 12 Pay is sooooo much cheaper and does the job well.
I think the problem with accountants and Sage is that they (the accountants) receive commission on selling Sage to their clients also it's easier for them if all their clients are on the same system. Mind you if the client uses a data inputter rather than a book-keeper on their Sage their accounts can be in a real old mess.
Sage and Quickbooks are a one size fits all package for Small firms and sole traders. They also had good profits in 90s and early noughties, so Sage aquired the likes of TAS and Tetra
New systems (web based, SaaS, cloud- take your pick) have one big advantage in that all their users are on the same version of the software.
Web based systems venders also target specific client bases rather than every one.
eg: Arithmo (in my opinion) is great for bookkeeping and accountancy practices clients that are sole traders/ micro businesses such as Driving schools, Tradesmen /women and Consultants.
I think Dalbir makes a great point with Sage being "one size fits all". If you accept it does a reasonable job in the majority of circumstances - where's the motivation for the accountant or bookkeeper to learn multiple packages?
I accept it mightn't be best for the client but I can understand why a practice seeks the economies of scale from a single piece of software.
On a side note, I've never worked in practice - but I though Iris was the most common software? Or is that for accounts production / tax integration etc.
Or maybe I've got that wrong?
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Tony
Responses are intended as outline only. Formal advice should be sort from your Institutes Technical Department or a suitably qualified Accountant.
As an "end user" I have used a few software pacakges. In fact started off with Sage in the DOS days. Found it a real pain as everything had to have a code assigned with spaces left in the code list for future entries in needed.
Then went onto TAS Books (again in DOS) which I found a lot easier than Sage.
I now use Money Manager Business Edition with the Final Accounts & Payroll module. My accountant did want me do swap to Sage but I resisted and sent him the program disk for Money Manager and the data files when needed. He was very happy with this and actually said that he found MM a very good program and very reasonably priced compared with Sage.
TBH I quite enjoy entering the transactions into MM on a daily basis. Everything is in plain English and not codes. The reporting is very good as well.
On a side note, I've never worked in practice - but I though Iris was the most common software? Or is that for accounts production / tax integration etc.
Or maybe I've got that wrong?
Iris is easily the most common software for accounts production, tax, co secretarial, and practice management. But you can't use their practice products to actually do the management books. They are very acquisitive so they they also own the Paymaster and Earnie payroll products and the respected Exchequer bookkeeping system (and probably a bunch of other stuff too). They also offer a cloud product based on Freeagent.
