The IFA - educate me! - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

HendyPhilhendy · Guru

The IFA - educate me!

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Phil,

they pride themselves in being one of the oldest bodies. Started in 1916 they are now the oldest non chartered body.

they used to be called the institute of book-keepers. Then they were the institute of administrative accountant and now they're the institute of financial accountants.

Mention their name over on accountingweb and your likely to get a deluge of abuse as the other don't really seem to consider them part of the club.

There have been failed talks about amalgamating with the ICAEW, IAB and AAT. I think that the link with the IAB is actually still quite a close one although I will leave it to someone like Frauke to confirm or deny that.

Certainly it's one where you can get full exemption based on membership of any of the others and it seems to be the easiest route to a practicing certificate... But that's still not to say that it's easy as you still have to pass the exams of the other bodies or pass the IFA exams which are apparently based on the ACCA syllabus.

Peasie · Expert

HendyPhilhendy wrote:
The truth is 2 things, Twitter you can't post a full opinion in 140 characters

Use "Twitlonger" for the occasional time you need to exceed the 140 characters.

http://www.twitlonger.com

gbm · Guru

Hi Phil,

You could try "not CCAB", which is factually true, although of course CIMA is now leaving CCAB.

ICBUK · Guru

Hi

I think Shamus has a good way of describing them, "the oldest non chartered body".

The term qualified accountant is a bit of a grey area, as I think even the AAT call their members qualified accountants now.

I guess until you restrict the term accountant, or define it, anyone who has a qualification in the subject could call themselves a qualified accountant?

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Just found that back in 2006 the chief executive of the IAB Malcolm Dean was simultaneously also the chief executive of the IFA so there is a definite link there. (I think that Malcolm Dean is now the International Development director of the IFA and I can't see any current link to the IAB).

On accountingweb I found this thread about the ICAEW / IFA merger (yer right!) which gives some excellent discussion / arguement / people throwing dummies out of prams and also encompasses discussion related to the proposed AAT merger.

The thread is entitled AAT takeover of the IFA and the ICAEW myth which sort of says it all.

http://www.accountingweb.co.uk/item/168181

As an aside and just for a laugh have a read of this one that I found in the accountancy age archives :

http://www.accountancyage.com/aa/news/1785081/institutes-ifa-acca-damages-claim-syllabus-copying

which was followed by a follow up in a the July 16th 1998 edition of accountancy age stating :

"ACCA legal win confirmed ACCA has confirmed its legal victory against the Institute of Financial Accountants as revealed in Accountancy Age two weeks ago (2 July). The High Court found the IFA had plagiarised large portions of ACCA's syllabus, including a typographical error".

If the papers even have the same typographical errors then the IFA was on a non starter with fighting that one. But of course 1998 is a long time ago and institutes change.

The one thing that comes accross to my mind is that the IFA seems to have attempted to partner up with almost everyone which would make me worry about the validity of my practice licence with them should they ever manage to succeed as I know from bitter experience in business that transitional arrangement are not always best for the people on the ground floor.

Back to the original question in relation to CPD. The IFA offer external CPD at discounted rates to members but the CPD is available to non members for £20 more per course. See this link :

http://www.ifa.org.uk/members/online-cpd-courses

I couldn't see any breakdown on the site of number of hours accreditation for each course but I wasn't on there for very long so probably missed it.

I could be very wrong but the conclusion that I've come to after reading through the various posts elsewhere is that IFA tends to be a home for accountants who have passed the exams of various other bodies but cannot get the experience required to gain practicing certificates through their own bodies.

As such, despite being naughty over their 1998 exams it does seem to tick many of the right boxes for many of the people on here.

I really don't think that picking the same three letter acronym as Independant Financial Advisers has done them any good though.

That was fun. Right, now back to studying swaps and options! :(

YLB-HO · Guru

I have been busy doing ESCL & VAT returns and a couple of final accounts over the last 2 weeks - with a weeks holiday coming up - so did not see this! So here goes.....

I have my practice certificate with the IFA and am a IFA member. I choose the IFA route, because I had no interest in statutory audit work and found the the other bodies qualifications required too much time spent not doing the accountancy basics. (My father was a FCA who just did statutory audit work and my brother a ACA - who cannot practice as an accountant as he went the corportate route). I do know the IFA beleive that only members of a professional body (which does include the IFA) should be able to call themselves Accountants in the UK.

The IFA has never been in talks to amalgamate with the ICAEW, IAB and AAT. (The AAT is seperate body, but I don't think it has ever been said they have been in amlagation talks with other CCAB bodies, even though they have links.) The only time there has been amalgamation talks which failed were the one with the ICAEW and ACCA, which failed because the ACCA membership voted against it. But they do talk to other bodies for various reasons.

The ICAEW sponsored the IFA to become an associate member of IFAC, this involved the ICAEW carring out "due dilligence" on the IFA as understandably they would not sponsor an body they did not consider to be an accountancy body. ALL the other bodies have mapped the IFA exams to give exemptions, should IFA members wish to qualfy to join other bodies. To do this they have to talk to each other. IFA members do attend both all the various bodies CPD meetings, you will find the odd IFA member in partnership (or even employing) members from all the bodies. In some areas because some IFA members are also members of other bodies - there are joint branch seminars, and there are members who also serve on other bodies disciplanary committees. I know members who originally qualified with other bodies, but did not maintain their memberships as at the time they felt there was no need. It was not until many years later did they then realise the need to be a member of a professional body, but because they had not maintained their membership with the body they qualfied through found they could no longer rejoin - so joined the IFA. As mentioned above, some accountants who are members of other bodies are unable to practice as they don't have sufficent working experience - so join the IFA to gain that experience they need. Once they join, many choose to stay - they just go onto gain a practice certificate from the body they originally qualified through.

Over 10 years ago, the audit senior from one of the Big 4, working on the statutory audit for a Company I was the Management accountant told me that he had received the results of his final exam and he was now a ACA. He asked me about the tax return work I did privately as he had friends who had asked him to complete them for him, but he had never seen or completed one! He had spoken to the ICAEW who had told him that he could do what he wanted as long as he did NOT do it as a ICAEW member! He found it surprising that they were happy for him to do it as long as he did not tell anyone he was a ACA.

The IAB (which I am also a member, and a current elected member of Council) used to share staff and a building with the IFA, but (I think - I was not directly involved ) it occassionally caused problems once they had with seperate councils and chief executives with conflicts of interest so the IAB moved and now have their own staff.

I originally joined the IAB after qualifing as a Bookkeeper (even though I was the tax senior in private practice, and at the time I has no formal qualifications as an accountant), and then went on to join the IFA.

I started in accountancy by doing tax investigation work, which I really enjoyed. When I looked at studying so I could join a professional body, I found the choice of syllabus incredibly boring and decided not to bother! At the time I did not know the IFA existed. I only discovered the IAB when I did a bookkeeping course which was IAB acredited! When I started doing tax investigation work, PCs did not exist and Twinlock books were considered state of the Art!

-- Edited by YLB-HO on Sunday 24th of April 2011 01:37:06 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Frauke,

cheers for the update but could you expand on one of the lines as I wouldn't mind knowing how it works in practice :

"some accountants who are members of other bodies are unable to practice as they don't have sufficent working experience - so join the IFA to gain that experience they need. Once they join, many choose to stay - they just go onto gain a practice certificate from the body they originally qualified through".

My reading of this is you qualify but cannot get experience through (lets keep it close to home) the ACCA.

Using the ACCA qualification IFA gives exemption from membership and you can set up in practice using an IFA practice licence.

That to me means that on setting up in practice with the IFA you must leave the ACCA as you would still be restricted as the the services that you would as a non practicing member be able to offer under regulation 8.

What you seem to be saying (I could be misreading this though) is that you gain your experience with the IFA then can rejoin the ACCA to get a practicing certificate through your original body at which point of course you would not have to leave the IFA.

I know that many people who do get practicing certificates through the ACCA go on to become chartered accountants via the reciprocal agreement with the ICAEW but that is providing that one keeps both memberships. The IFA route that seems to be implied here would seem to involve a period of resignation from the ACCA otherwise one would not be able to offer any serices beyond bookkeeping to trial balance, payroll and VAT.

It's all a very confussing minefield out there and very expensive if one makes the wrong choices. For example, leaving a body assumes that they would actually have you back again and also that they would continue in the future to recognise experience gained under another body.

Anyway, hope that you've had a good Easter,

talk soon,

Shaun.

YLB-HO · Guru

No Shaun, as a ACCA member you would not have to resign.

If you are a member of any body - you do not need to leave. You just cannot advertise your services as a member of that body if you are in practice, as you must not put your body in the position where someone could bring a complaint to them via the complaints procedure. Your bodies regualations can only be enforced if you tell people you are doing the work for them as a member of your body. So you can be a member - break all the regulations and still not be breach of the regulations as long as you don't do it letting others (public etc) know you are a member of that body. A member of the ACCA can sign a letter but must not put the ACCA letters after their name designating they are a member etc. (Does that make sense?)

My brother has been a member of the ICAEW for over 20 years and pays membership fees to that body. He can apply for a job as a ACA, but he is not allowed advertise his services a ICAEW member as he is not covered by them to do so. If he was unable to apply for a practice certificate - and he wanted to practice - he would still be a ICAEW member and pay his subscriptions, but he would then have to find another body (IFA?) to allow him to practice. He would then advertise his services as a member of the IFA, but still continue to pay his subscriptions to maintain his membership of the ICAEW.

I do know (as I have helped a few ACCA members with the paperwork to get a ACCA practice certificate) - it is sometim all the areas they need to gain their practice certificate through their existing employer. So if they are unable or dont want to work for someone else to gain this practical experience, they have the option to do so by joining the IFA to practice. The IFA practice certificate does not allow members to practice as Auditors but allow to practice to do everything else, which makes it very attractive to members of other bodies.

-- Edited by YLB-HO on Tuesday 26th of April 2011 01:11:45 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Cheers Frauke,

I've also been doing a search around on accountingweb and one thread that had great potential as it covered the same material unfortunately went off thread and down arguements about CPD route. You might remember it as it's one that you had input into back in 2007.

http://www.accountingweb.co.uk/item/172352

Unfortunately I think that the ICAEW situation that you quote isn't applicable for the ACCA. There was a conversation on here last month about this very subject although such only hit things from a student perspective, not fully qualified.

Over on accounting web I did find another post that states that they have spoken with the ACCA about this to confirm the situation and it always comes back to the fact that if you are ACCA then their rules take precedence over anyone else that you may be affiliated to. And their rules state that you cannot go beyond very very basic bookkeeping services unless you have an ACCA practice certificate.

For the discussion see this link.

http://www.accountingweb.co.uk/item/180777

This is one of those threads where I really want your advice to be correct for my situation but unfortunately whilst it obviously is from an ICAEW perspective it does seem that the ACCA rules on this are possibly the most draconian and restrictive out there which really does leave it's members in a position of either getting the required post qualification experience in a suitable practice or move to another body.

Personally like yourself I have no intention of ever going anywhere near audit work which does open other options (IFA, AIA, CIMA, etc. non of which are anywhere near as restrictive as the ACCA). Anyway, I've not passed P2 yet so this is all just thinking about the future rather than anything that I've got to do right at this moment.

You never know, the ACCA might suddenly become more flexible in the next few months as to what they allow newly qualified to do... yer right!

Hope that you're having a good day,

talk soon,

Shaun.

YLB-HO · Guru

I am a bit short of time as I have a lot to do before going on holiday on Friday, so I don't have time to get into this. And of course a ACCA student may not have enough qualifications to get exemptions from the IFA to join and obtain a practice certificate!

I am just quoting from my actual experience with people I have know and been in contact with - I have even spoken to people at the ACCA in person, as I have gone to ACCA CPD meetings in the past when it has come up during private discussions. I suspect they will never put it into writing to ensure it is not open to a completely wrong interpretation. Sometime when things are done "officially" then the rules have to be rigidly followed - however if done quietly, the officials are happy not to accept the situation.

I used to be in business (about 20+ years ago,) with a FCCA and a FCA and both were told the same thing - don't but the FCCA or the FCA after their names and we were not allowed to mention they were members of their respective bodies as at the time neither a ACCA or ICAEW member were permitted to be partnership with each other or anyone else.

-- Edited by YLB-HO on Tuesday 26th of April 2011 02:27:05 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Cheers for taking the time to answer Frauke. Hope everything that you get everything that you need to sorted by Friday.

HendyPhilhendy · Guru

Thanks guys for taking the time to answer. Much appreciated.

One of the key differences then seems to be the ability to perform audit work. As it happens for myself I chose not to apply for a practising certificate to do this. It seems like I could have started my own practice sooner.

One thing on the accounting web threads that Shamus kindly linked to: I couldn't suss whether anyone had successfully completed the exams, traded via IFA i.e. not mentioning their ACCA status and then became an ACCA member. My understanding is that ACCA are very strict on the work being done. I know when I first enquired about it not long after my exams it was a blanket no and I would have had to lose my membership.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Mine is the same understanding as you Phil.

I'm wondering if maybe Frauke is getting some leaway in his answers from the ACCA not available to the rest of us due to his proximity to the various bodies?

Certainly as with you the answer that I've been given from the ACCA was an absolutely not with a prompt to read regulation 8.

On the Audit front even though it's not a path I want to go down myself I notice that AIA members can be auditors. I've started another thread on the AIA (with a title very similar to this thread) as would be interesting to get peoples opinions on that organisation as well.

GinnyBee · Veteran Member

Shamus

"You never know, the ACCA might suddenly become more flexible in the next few months as to what they allow newly qualified to do... yer right!"

All I can say is biggrin

Anderson Accountancy · Veteran Member

Hi guys,

Just my two pennies worth. I took the ICB route then was looking for something more in line with practice. As I do not audit (which many smaller firms don't do) I felt there was no need for one of the BIG bodies so found the IFA. I have been in accountancy for over 20 years and certainly consider myself a qualified accountant but the main difference between the big bodies and the IFA is that the IFA are based on their members actually being able to do the work.

For example, I worked for a guy who was a member of ICAEW and to say that he had no idea of how to do tax returns, or even whether a P&L looked right, would be putting it mildly. He even employed an apprentice who had just completed ACCA but had no idea how to do simple bookkeeping - it was my task to train him in bookkeeping in just 3 days before I left the practice.

So my thought is simple, it may be one thing to be a member of one of the big bodies and have those letters after your name but it's a completely different thing to be able to actually do the work.

** Disclaimer:- I am NOT suggesting that everyone in the big bodies do not know the basics, I am simply sharing my experiences.

Dave

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi David,

as an advanced level ACCA student back in 2007 I set up my own bookkeeping business just to get me started ready to set up my own practice. The ICB seemed to fit with what I needed and back then it was quite usual to do just the ICB level I and level II comp in order to get a practicing certificate from them so you would be covered for MLR and get PII on the cheap.

I did the two exams rather than ask for any exemptions as I just wanted to make sure that I had not forgotten any of the basics. And I got a respectful 99% and 98% respectively which came from using only ACCA study materials (plus sage line 50). Early last year the ICB changed their practice licence requirements and you needed to pass the level II manual as well. At the time besides being a single parent and also trying to jold down a quite demanding job (The day job is a freelance management consultant in banking operations) I was studying for ACCA papers P1 (risk & Corporate Governance) and P3 (Business analysis) so just didn't have the time to do any more ICB exams on top of that.

I spoke with the ICB about getting exemptions based on my ACCA studies and was told that the ICB do not recognise accountancy qualifications for exemptions. Needless to say I was absolutely astounded (and incensed) at the time to be told that accountants don't understand bookkeeping where I knew full well that as I had studied ACCA, not ICB but done so well in their exams then such was obviously not the case. (note that since then James has introduced a bit more flexibility into the ICB stance and if you have passed the foundation level paper F3 within the past two years some exemptions are available).

However, (you thought that I was going to be disagreeing with you didn't you!) since those initial email exchanges with the ICB it has become clear to me that there are many accountants that as you say do not understand the basics and I think that I've actually spotted the flaw.

Its the exemptions system. People from uni with relevant degree's and no experience can go straight to advanced level ACCA studies which go nowhere near the basics so is the real problem here that universities are starting students at too advanced a level? Just take a look at any typical uni syllabus for accountancy and it's full of economic and management theory but is seriously short on the basics or where the basics are in there they are as an options module.

I'm studying corporate reporting (paper P2) at the moment and to be honest, if I had only started here whilst I would be able to knock up the right calculations for consolidating accounts or quote bits of standards at you I wouldn't actually be able to produce a balance sheet and P&L as such knowledge is deemed to have been carried forwards from earlier studies but some may have ended up here without passing the basics.

Maybe the real issue here is that supervisory bodies should not give exemptions based on purely accademic qualifications. I'm not saying that there should not be exemptions where people have come through the exams of other professional bodies, just that somewhere along the line they actually passed them and have not just managed to find a route of exempting themselves past all of the basics.

Bet you never thought that you would read it James but I'm actually agreeing (sort of) with the ICB's stance on not accepting the qualifications of members of higher bodies as exemptions from ICB exams.

Actually, on the ICB front, over the past 12 months I personally have found that the restrictions placed on me by the ACCA means that I was not allowed to offer the service to clients that they needed so last year did not renew the practice licence and this year decided to give up the ICB membership. Although such is nothing against the ICB just that I wasn't allowed by my other affiliation to offer the services of equivalent level ICB members in practice which made it pretty pointless if I was only a member to offer services which I was not allowed to.

Well that's my two penneth worth which if you boil it all down comes down to a belief that if you pass all of the exams of a higher level supervisory body or claim only applicable exemptions for which you have equivalent or better knowledge then the accountants that get produced at the end of the process are thougherly competent and knowledgeable and well deserving of the title.

Again I only meant to write a quick reply!

all the best,

Shaun.

attilabenko · Guru

Hi Shaun,

With ICAEW you must do the professional stage knowledge level accounting module, you cannot get exemption for that whatever qualifications you have (apart from when you are already chartered , just changing bodies) they say it is to make sure evrybody has at least this level knowledge (that is basically bookkeeping - TB,P&L,BS,etc). You might get exemption of the whole professional stage but you still will have to do the accounting mudule. That is all fine BUT and there is always a but, this module is one of the very first ones and after that it can take VERY long to get the actual qualification and not everybody remembers what they studied 5-6 yrs ago. After this module I think basic bookkeeping does not really come up in the studies...

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Morning Attila,

Ah, but what if you convert from ACCA to ICAEW and to pass your ACCA you got there via the Uni route.

Then again, as Ginny said in her other post last night, that route into the ICAEW is now closing.

I suppose that there's a certain argument to suggest that if one can work your way through all of the loopholes to becoming an accountant then you would be absolutely perfect as a tax adviser.

At advanced level ACCA you can't get through without passing paper P2 which is firmly entrenched in financial accountancy. However, you can pass the rest from a corporate standpoint if the papers that you do are the other two core papers (P1, P3), and options papers P4 and P5.

Paper P2 has been voted the most complex paper of any supervisory body (ICAEW included) and is commonly refered to as the beast. Have a look at a few old papers over on the ACCAGlobal site and you'll see what I mean.

However, P2 has one consolidation question (either group accounts or group cashflow) and the rest are advice type questions based on current standards. It's all thinking in Millions and not at all the sort of stuff that one would use to do the accounts of Joe Bloggs taxi's.

Thinking about it as the advanced tax paper (P6) is also an option paper and you could skip F6 (tax) based on a degree. It is also possible to be an ACCA accountant without actually having done any tax study at all! How wrong does that sound for someone in practice!!!

Maybe financial accountnacy qualifications should be more specific between Practice and Corporate as at the moment you take one route (say corporate) which opens up the other without actually taking the exams specific to that route.

Or maybe... sure that someone will stone me for this. None of the papers should be optional and all accountants should have the complete well rounded knowledge that includes performance management, financial management, Tax and Audit rather than having to pick and choose between them normally based on which you think is easiest to pass rather than the knowledge that you think that you will actually need.

My options are performance management and advanced Taxation as the former is for the corporate side of my business and the tax is for the practice that I one day hope to have. I have no interest at all in doing audit work and financial management seems too close to performance management which although such would make it the obvious choice for minimal study maximum return that's not why I'm going through all of this anguish.

Appreciate what you are saying about it being a very long time which is why I did the ICB exams rather than asking for exemptions up front (which it turns out wouldn't have been available anyway!) but as it turns out it must be like riding a bike as even though you think that you've forgotten it it's really still all stored away in the old grey matter somewhere.

HendyPhilhendy · Guru

Some really interesting points about the basics!

As someone that did AAT and ACCA I started from the beginning and recall that this grounding really helped me when I dealt with bigger clients.

When I was working in a medium tier firm I was studying ACCA but also responsible for taking graduates out to clients etc. Often the graduates were being paid more than me, yet I was the senior on the job. After somewhat of a showdown with one of the partners this was rectified as I refused to train people who were being paid more than me. One of the things that struck was the lack of basic bookkeeping understanding. When you are at that level the focus is more on the understanding of the end accounts etc.

I guess one of the key things that I am learning now is that I didn't know about some of the other options available, certainly the IFA. We had ACCA and ICAEW trainees and knew about CIMA. Hence, I have mentioned on another thread about being in somewhat of a bubble. I went through the natural progression routes that were expected of me.

Again, there are both sides to it though as I have come across plenty of 'bookkeepers come accountants' who know lots about the basics of double entry but couldn't tell you what a balance sheet is.

HendyPhilhendy · Guru

A couple of people have also mentioned the point about not remembering exams from 5-6 years. Surely that is the same for anything as far back as GCSE's and passing your driving test! You have to be assessed at some point.

A plus point of these professional qualifications is the CPD requirement to continuously update your knowledge.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Phil,

this has turned into an excellent thread with some good discussions that have resulted in myself for one sitting back at times and thinking not only why did I take the route that I did but also why did I stick with it.

As you touch upon only certain options seem open to you at the start and you don't hear about the peripheral bodies that could have been better choices in some situations. Certainly from internet searches you really have to know what you are looking for in order to find it.

In my case the choice was between ACCA and CIMA. It was a few years back and one of the retail banks that I was working with made me an offer that I couldn't refuse (horses head in the bottom of the bed etc.!) so I became a permanent mid rank manager with them (or as permanent as a job gets in retail banking as my entire division was outsourced a year later!).

Those I worked with were a mixture of CIMA and ACCA bods and it very much seemed as though you were not really taken seriously by the more established members of staff unless you had proven your worth by being with one of those two.

I chose ACCA as my personal opinion is that a chartered certified accountant is one up from a management accountant. That isn't neccessarily a fact, it's just my personal thought.

I also had a similar situation to yourself in my first job which was a systems analyst with British Coal. There were set pay bands and if you had a degree you automatically went to band x. On leaving school I had been offered a place at uni (studying Law at Nottingham) but was also offered a position with British coal straight from my A level results and, being young and foolish and thinking mainly about the money I took the latter.

Ended up in a position where like yourself I had graduates working for me as trainee's on higher pay grades.

My approach though was that I found a position as a management consultant and then handed my notice in at British Coal. After being told twice previously by senior management that nothing could be done about the pay structure I was offered the rise that I wanted there and then on handing my notice in but I'm the sort that if I've decided that I'm going then it's a done deal. As it was, such was the best move that I ever made as I learnt (and made) more in the three years that I was with that management consultancy than I had in the eight years with British Coal before that.

Circumstance can be a fickle freind at times can't it!

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Phil,

totally random quick question.

At what sitting did you pass P2 / 3.6?

I'm trying to randomise which old papers I sit as mocks on the run up to June and this is about as random a way of picking which one I try first as I can think of.

cheers,

Shaun.

HendyPhilhendy · Guru

I can't remember to be honest! It was a few years ago now.

Try the June 2007 paper

biggrin

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Cheers Phil,

that one's as good as any espechially as it was the first sitting of the new syllabus.

attilabenko · Guru

Hi Shaun,

I thought it is a bit like riding a bike,too but when your exam is multiple choice and bookkeeping in your work experience is done on a software and you did not have any bokkeeping experience from before than there isn't much to remember either...
I do not want to offend anybody, not saying no chartered accountants remember the basics but there are certainly some.
Solution? That is something should be done at training/ work experience in my opinion - I like your example of bicycle but you can't really learn to ride a bike from a book :)

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Can't learn to ride a bike from a book... lol... And the way I'm feeling at the moment it seems that I can't learn accountancy from one either!

Seems that the more that goes in the more that slips out and escapes somewhere. My memory really feels like a tyre with a slow leak today!

attilabenko · Guru

Same here, spent all Easter working and will be working through next weekend,too. But next week I am off to Isle of Skye so at least I can relax there.

YLB-HO · Guru

When I started out a lot of Accountants learnt manual bookkeeping and all the "Basics" whilst working for an accountancy practice, so there was no need to study it and it was not in any of the syllabuses. They studied the more advance and specialist subject matter. This was before PC's so everyone had to learn double entry manual bookkeeping and all the other so called "Basics" - no-one had a choice.

With PC's and accounts packages, learning while working seems to have stopped, and instead too many learn by just studying - but many of the Accountancy courses never cover the "Basics" and what has happened is many unqualified have learnt these skills through doing the work, and many who study without doing the work don't know how to do it!

A very good friend with a Accountancy Degree, and a member of a chartered body, told me that it was only when he learnt double entry bookkeeping several years latter that he considered himself a good accountant - up until then - he had the qualifications, the well paid jobs - but didn't really know what he was doing!

-- Edited by YLB-HO on Wednesday 27th of April 2011 04:02:35 PM

ICBUK · Guru

Shamus wrote:
Bet you never thought that you would read it James but I'm actually agreeing (sort of) with the ICB's stance on not accepting the qualifications of members of higher bodies as exemptions from ICB exams.

Great discussion guys, it's good to hear the points of view from people outside of the ICB.

betty121 · Senior Member

Hi everyone,

This has been a great thread. I have been looking at the IFA's financial accountant diploma. It's a level 4 qualification and seems to cover everything you would need for running a bookkeeping business. You can also now get membership of the FTA as the tax paper has been unified. As far as I can make out a practise certificate is awarded upon completion for both IFA and FTA.

Elizabeth

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Elizabeth,

thanks for the info.

Are you actually saying though that there is a purely accademic route to a practice certificate or do you already have the experience requirement?

Just interested as I'm combining your answer with Frauke's above where he says that conversion from just taking the exams of another body such as the ACCA may not be enough for a practice certificate indicating that there is still a post qualification experience expectation.

There are of course other problems with an ACCA conversion such as having to give up your primary membership which is a route that I for one would be pretty adverse to go down but non the less I'm interested in what your understanding is of the experience requirements and are such requirements if any as difficult to attain as the ACCA ones (three years post qualification working in a supervised capacity for a suitably qualified accountant with no consideration as to the experience that you may have prior to that).

Could you let us know what your understanding is of the IFA experience requirements if any for the practice certificate via the route that you're considering.

many thanks in advance,

Shaun.

P.S. How are the AAT studies going at the moment? you're exams in June will be around the same time as mine (ACCA is from the 6th to the 15th where AAT is 13th to the 16th). are you feeling ready for this batch cos I know that I'm sure not. Good luck with whichever one's you're up for at this sitting anyway.

betty121 · Senior Member

Hi Shaun,

I phoned the IFA this morning to ask about work experience. The woman I spoke to confirmed that none is needed, the practise cert. is awarded upon application when the qualification is completed. This also applies to the professional qualification. She took my email and the education department will send me more information.

I am still on Level 2 AAT. I have been put off my stride a bit with the problems I know I will have getting a practising cert. I'm doing the computer based assessments so they are on demand. Best of luck with your ACCA exams. I'm sure you will pass.

Speak to you soon.

Elizabeth

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Cheers for following that up Elizabeth, some very useful information for this thread there.

I suspect on the back of that the IFA might get deluged with student applications from readers of this site.

wish that I shared your confidence on my next ACCA paper!

all the best,

Shaun.

YLB-HO · Guru

All caught up - and about to go and start packing!!!

The IFA issue both Compliance and Practice certificates. Compliance certificates are for anyone with less than 3 years experience. They are the same except in cost (!). I think the IFA have them with different names for their own monitoring purposes. I guess they would monitor someone with a compliance certificate more closely than someone with a practice certificate. Interestingly, any IFA member who has a practice certificate with a CCAB body, is exempt from requiring a practice certificate from the IFA!

All IFA fellow members have to have a minimum of 3 years relevant experience.

One thing not previously mentioned is that anyone applying for a compliance/practice certificate from the IFA has to submit details CPD for the previous 12 months. I am unsure what the minimum is, but last year I submitted 95+ hours. This also has to be done every year on renewal. PII also is compulsory for anyone applying. I don't know if it compulsory or not as I am registered, but I have to provide my Data Protection Act Registration details every year on my practice renewal too.

So although the IFA don't require "practice" experience for members to apply of a compliance certificate - they do require both PII and proof of CPD of the previous 12 months.

-- Edited by YLB-HO on Thursday 28th of April 2011 04:18:08 PM

betty121 · Senior Member

Thanks Frauke,

I will contact the IFA again next week and ask about the CPD. Just wondering how that would work if you applied right after completing the diploma as your knowledge would be up to date having just completed the qualification.

I am seriously considering this diploma as the sylabus looks very relevant to a bookkeeping business and ofcourse the ease of receiving the compliance certificate.

Elizabeth