Time to Rebrand?? - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

LizB · Veteran Member

Time to Rebrand??

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Strange you should say this, it is also something I have been giving some thought too. I am toying with the idea of moving from KM Bookkeeping Services to KM Bookkeeping and Accountancy Services (although I've yet to check this with ICB, but cant see an issue) as some of the services I offer sole traders such as self assessment are still seen as firmly within the realms of accountants. Actually, this year I have taken on more self assessment clients than anything else. These tend to be private landords who think they need an accountant.

I am not suggesting I am an accountant, but that some of services offered are seen by the clients as accountancy services. It's very difficult to communicate the difference to them if you can't speak to them, because they think you cant do the work they need.

I think there is a line between suggesting you can offer services for which you are not qualified or competent, and better communicating the services that you do offer.

I'll be most interested to see how this thread develops.

Kris

ADAS · Guru

kjmcculloch83 wrote:

I'll be most interested to see how this thread develops.

Me to,

I don't see anything wrong with labelling your business as a provider of accountancy services. The reason isn't to mislead the public but, imho, there's a conception amongst some that bookkeepers are "merely" data entry clerks.

The "problem" is many bookkeepers fall somewhere between the two extremes of data entry clerks and accountants. Neither description is a fair one. It's interesting that in Money Laundering legislation bookkeepers fall under the category of ASP's which seems fair enough to me.

BudgetB · Guru

I'm in agreement with all of this; as Liz said, and as I think I ranted about on a different thread, I've also had the 'just a bookkeeper' line a couple of times recently to which I take great offence.

What to call yourself is of course where the problem lies, although anyone can call themselves an accountant, and whilst I do a lot of 'accountancy' there are also a lot of things that I don't do and would most definately turn down because I know I don't have all of the required knowledge. So what am I, an accountkeeper? or booktant? lol

I think accountancy service provider is a far more accurate title (although a bit of a mouthful), and I too have been giving serious thought recently to the way the business is named. Only yesterday I had a conversation with someone who said (paraphrasing).....oh do you do that, your business is called bookkeeping'. Yet I also have clients who came to me to do their self assessment because they don't need an accountant (their words) because they are not big/important enough. Do I lose that market if I rebrand?

Through my membership of the AAP apparently I am called an Accounting Professional, which is quite a nice title. I'm sure somewhere I saw a comment from the chairman saying we could all call ourselves accountants with this membership, but I am hesitant to do that due to all the above, which brings this back full circle.

Stuartbham · Senior Member

BudgetB wrote:
Through my membership of the AAP apparently I am called an Accounting Professional, which is quite a nice title. I'm sure somewhere I saw a comment from the chairman saying we could all call ourselves accountants with this membership, but I am hesitant to do that due to all the above, which brings this back full circle.

Hi Jenny

Do you mind me asking what the AAP stands for?

Is it an accounting institute or body?

Thanks.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

The only thing that makes me stop and think a bit, is how re branding to accountancy services would affect my relationship with local accountants, or any potential future relationship.

Kris

BudgetB · Guru

Stuartbham wrote:
BudgetB wrote:
Through my membership of the AAP apparently I am called an Accounting Professional, which is quite a nice title. I'm sure somewhere I saw a comment from the chairman saying we could all call ourselves accountants with this membership, but I am hesitant to do that due to all the above, which brings this back full circle.
Hi Jenny
Do you mind me asking what the AAP stands for?
Is it an accounting institute or body?
Thanks.

It's the International Association of Accounting Professionals (I forgot the 'I' earlier!). It's a new thing that the IAB thought up.

BudgetB · Guru

kjmcculloch83 wrote:
The only thing that makes me stop and think a bit, is how re branding to accountancy services would affect my relationship with local accountants, or any potential future relationship.

Kris

True, they may feel threatened I guess.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Stuart,

I think that it should be IAAP (International Association of Accounting Professionals).

This page gives a run down as to the exemptions to gain IAAP membership :

http://accountingprofessional.org/membership.html

Like yourself this isn't one that I've heard of but there are just so many out there.

The website gives very little information but I do get the impression that it's another one that's very closely linked to the IAB (like the IFA).

Very incestuous bunch these supervisory bodies!

All the best,

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Darn it, I type too slow.

Stuartbham · Senior Member

Thanks Jenny and Shaun. Not heard of them but I'll have a nose at their website.

Strange that the IAB have set up an accounting body considering their link to the IFA. Wonder what their thinking was behind it?

LizB · Veteran Member

My, those responses were quick. I only went out to pick up some paperwork from a client!

I was thinking along the lines of Accountancy Services / Provider. I would not call myself an accountant, although I have come into contact with a couple of businesses that do, all be it they have the same qualifications as me.

I think what is stopping me at the moment is what kjmcculloch83 said about affecting possible relationships with local Accountants. Are they going to think they can get a cheaper rate for passing work on to a Bookkeeping business, rather than an Accountancy Services firm? Might they see the latter as a threat to take their clients away??

Anyway, I'll continue to dither over what to do, and post up my conclusions.

By the way, does anyone know if you can just change the name of your business bank account? Was thinking that if I do rebrand, I've only just got most of my clients to pay online/ by standing order, so don't necessarily want the hassle of getting them to have to restart with a new account number etc...

BudgetB · Guru

Shamus wrote:
Darn it, I type too slow.

biggrin

BudgetB · Guru

Stuartbham wrote:
Thanks Jenny and Shaun. Not heard of them but I'll have a nose at their website.
Strange that the IAB have set up an accounting body considering their link to the IFA. Wonder what their thinking was behind it?

As a member....er, I don't know. It was to recognise the fact that we do more than just bookkeeping, although apart from a nice certificate they haven't actually started producing anything yet, but then it is still pretty new. As you say there already is the IFA, so I assume this is an inbetween the two type membership.

I expect Frauke knows.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Maybe they've not told the IFA!

I've just sent away for an application form in the hope that it comes with an information pack as the website gives very little info and the benefits page is actually headed IAB!... Strange that you can't see what the benefits of membership would be unless you become a member... Which of course makes membership non enforcable / illegal in a similar way to not being able to read a multi storey car parks terms and conditions until after you've purchased an entry ticket.

BudgetB · Guru

The only info I've ever had is what is on the website.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Liz,

yes you can change bank account names and still keep the same account number.

In my case they just wanted a copy of the updated certificate of incorporation. If you're not incorporated just talk to your bank about what they need from you in order to change the name.

My main problem was with HMRC. They were very efficient at changing the details but its not a one stop thing and I needed to contact several departments seperately.

All the best,

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Jenny,

got to ask, considering the very little information that they post as to benefits of membership what inspired you to opt to join that one over the alternatives such as IFA or AIA? Have the IAB been having a sales push on this new organisation... Also, how many three letter accronyms have we got in this business!!!! (add AAT, ATT, ICB, CAT to the above for starters).

ICBUK · Guru

Hello All,

Firstly as far as I am aware the IAB and IFA have gone their separate ways, the IAB have probably setup the IAAP to replace the accreditation, but I speculate. Maybe Frauke could clarify.

I don't think leaving the term bookkeeper will fix anything. As these 'paper shufflers' you refer to would just follow suit and start calling themselves accountancy providers or whatever.

What is needed is an industry standard that defines a bookkeepers assistant/ junior bookkeeper/ bookkeeper/ professional bookkeeper/ certified bookkeeper or whatever the chosen terms be.

However, in general, the people I meet in ICB membership meetings or talk to on the phone, the more successful practices call themselves bookkeepers, the ones struggling to get clients almost always call themselves accountancy services or something.

Again very generalisation but it is now one of the first questions I ask when giving advice over the phone.

LizB · Veteran Member

ICBUK wrote:
However, in general, the people I meet in ICB membership meetings or talk to on the phone, the more successful practices call themselves bookkeepers, the ones struggling to get clients almost always call themselves accountancy services or something.

Now thats interesting! As a 'Bookkeeper' my business is reasonably successful at the present. (Touch wood!!) - Well I have enough to fill my time up anyway!! Therefore, I wouldn't want to jeopardise that by rebranding as an Accountacy Services business.

Oh dear, what a dilemma.... confuse

BudgetB · Guru

LizB wrote:
ICBUK wrote:
However, in general, the people I meet in ICB membership meetings or talk to on the phone, the more successful practices call themselves bookkeepers, the ones struggling to get clients almost always call themselves accountancy services or something.
Now thats interesting! As a 'Bookkeeper' my business is reasonably successful at the present. (Touch wood!!) - Well I have enough to fill my time up anyway!! Therefore, I wouldn't want to jeopardise that by rebranding as an Accountacy Services business.
Oh dear, what a dilemma....

Tony (ADAS) seems to be doing ok....

BudgetB · Guru

Shamus wrote:
Hi Jenny,

got to ask, considering the very little information that they post as to benefits of membership what inspired you to opt to join that one over the alternatives such as IFA or AIA? Have the IAB been having a sales push on this new organisation... Also, how many three letter accronyms have we got in this business!!!! (add AAT, ATT, ICB, CAT to the above for starters).

Quite simply because they set it up and wrote to me saying I was guaranteed a membership for £30, and I got a shiny certificate. I assumed that there would be more info/benefits etc once they got going and had some members.

To date there hasn't been any communication at all and the website hasn't changed. The certificate looks nice on the wall, and the letters look nice on my letterhead. What can I say...

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Personally I don't mention bookkeeping or accounting anywhere in my name and people can jump to their own conclusions from the name of my company!

Think of all of your local accountants... Or solicitors for that matter and ask yourself how many state what they do in their name? They may add it afterwards or underneath but the actual name seldom contains a restriction or definition as to what services one can expect from them.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Jenny,

sounds as though it was a sales push to getthemselves off the ground.

Looking attheir website your membership should gain you access to the benefits area which may hold some more info.

As James says above, maybe Frauke will know more when she logs in later.

BudgetB · Guru

It's just the same as the IAB stuff; 15% of such and such insurance, software etc.

ICBUK · Guru

LizB wrote:
ICBUK wrote:
However, in general, the people I meet in ICB membership meetings or talk to on the phone, the more successful practices call themselves bookkeepers, the ones struggling to get clients almost always call themselves accountancy services or something.
Now thats interesting! As a 'Bookkeeper' my business is reasonably successful at the present. (Touch wood!!) - Well I have enough to fill my time up anyway!! Therefore, I wouldn't want to jeopardise that by rebranding as an Accountacy Services business.
Oh dear, what a dilemma....

It is very much generalisation, I think running a small business it is very much about your personality more than anything. ie: if you are successful it is mostlikely down to you, rather than your name.

However, if you are having trouble finding clients I would not recommend calling yourself an accountancy service provider and expect it to fix everything. Perhaps have a more general look at how you advertise yourself.

If you do get people who think bookkeepers just are data entry, inform them on the different levels, and how you offer more services/are qualified/registered with a body/insurred etc.

Not everyone understands the financial world, just like I don't understand the different levels of being a pilot or an electrican.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

ICBUK wrote:

If you do get people who think bookkeepers just are data entry, inform them on the different levels, and how you offer more services/are qualified/registered with a body/insurred etc.
Not everyone understands the financial world, just like I don't understand the different levels of being a pilot or an electrican.

I would agree to an extent James. From the number of clients and ordinary people I speak to who think if they run a business as a sole trader they need an accountant are huge.

So, does the huge word bookkeeper in my name put some off calling, because they think I'm not what they need? Probably. How, in that case, can you enter into dialogue with these people to redress their misconceptions? I would suggest with great difficulty.

And given the fact that the boundaries are becoming increasingly blurred, am I the only one who finds this conversation difficult?

Kris

ADAS · Guru

ICBUK wrote:

I think running a small business it is very much about your personality more than anything. ie: if you are successful it is mostlikely down to you, rather than your name.

Precisely. The way you brand your business, imho, is your "way in" to potential clients after that it's purely down to personality and the client accepting your credentials and having confidence in your ability to deliver what they need.

It's a similar point with your website. I've been critiscised by some here for you using the url accountancyliverpool. But the fact is potential clients are over 100 times more likely to search for accountancy than bookkeeper. So it didn't make sense, to me, to limit any potential viewings.

I know Kris & Liz posted concerns about the impact on relationships with Accountants but in my experience it can work for you to. I'm sure most posters here know in their own mind where bookkeeping stops and accountancy starts so I'm sure most Accountants know the same. The ones that I deal with, don't want to do bookkeeping because they'd rather concentrate on more value adding aspects of their business.

I do agree with James though, until the terms are protected in Law, there will always be this confusion.

Edit:

thanks for making me smile Jenny.

-- Edited by ADAS on Thursday 22nd of September 2011 02:16:05 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

I have to say that this sounds a little like turkeys campaigning for Christmas!

If bookkeepers get what they do protected in law then accountants will do the same which to my mind will reduce the things that bookkeepers would be allowed to do where that strays into accountants territory (final accounts, tax returns, busdiness advice, Management Accounts, etc.).

That would just serve to return bookkeepers to data entry roles.

As such is it not better to leave the uneasy status quo as is rather than fiddling with a system that whilst less than perfect does seem to work to the advantage of bookkeepers at the moment.

BudgetB · Guru

Agreed totally Shaun!

And Tony, no worries, all part of the service here! (Clients also get counselling, life coaching, motivational talks etc etc)

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

I also agree Shaun.

In addition to a name change, I am also thinking about limiting my services to individuals and sole traders. That would mean ignoring, or redirecting ltd companies and partnerships elsewhere. What are the views in limiting, or specialising?

Kris

ADAS · Guru

I disagree.

It don't see why a suitably qualified and regulated bookkeeper should be restricted by type of business. But I'd be in favour of a restriction based on size and therefore perceived "risk", in a similar way to audit requirements work now.

I think it would benefit the public as a whole and clear away a lot of the confusion.

ICBUK · Guru

Just done a quick bit of research based on Tony's post: " But the fact is potential clients are over 100 times more likely to search for accountancy than bookkeeper"

Google says the term bookkeeper is searched for 90,500 times a month, the term accountancy services is searched 14,800 times a month. However, the term accountant is searched 823,000 times a month smile

If someone thinks they need an accountant, they wont swap to a bookkeeper just because you advertise as an accountant and tell them they don't need one, or perhaps they will.

The ICB is targeting banks and business start up funds etc to get to the smaller businesses and explain they should be looking for a bookkeeper. They only started doing this a couple of years ago and already it has seen some effect.

Yes I know it isn't a massive change, it wont happen overnight. But if all the bookkeepers start calling themselves accountants/accountancy services it will kill the message.

BudgetB · Guru

Yes and no. I don't think that turning away Ltd Co's is a good idea, if you can do the work they are worth keeping, however I quite like the idea of a limit similar to the audit limit, where over that mythical figure only people at a certain level could do the accounts.

BudgetB · Guru

ICBUK wrote:
Just done a quick bit of research based on Tony's post: " But the fact is potential clients are over 100 times more likely to search for accountancy than bookkeeper"
Google says the term bookkeeper is searched for 90,500 times a month, the term accountancy services is searched 14,800 times a month. However, the term accountant is searched 823,000 times a month
If someone thinks they need an accountant, they wont swap to a bookkeeper just because you advertise as an accountant and tell them they don't need one, or perhaps they will.
The ICB is targeting banks and business start up funds etc to get to the smaller businesses and explain they should be looking for a bookkeeper. They only started doing this a couple of years ago and already it has seen some effect.
Yes I know it isn't a massive change, it wont happen overnight. But if all the bookkeepers start calling themselves accountants/accountancy services it will kill the message.

So as a win win situation keep the 'whatever bookkeeping' name and then have a little strap line under it saying Accountcy Service Provider - hey presto you've covered all the bases!

ICBUK · Guru

I agree with Tony,

The Industry could try to further define the boundries based on 'risk' or turnover or the level of advice.

The ICB has not gone this far yet, but there have been discussions. Perhaps you all should attend the bookkeepers summit and debate the topic biggrin

ICBUK · Guru

BudgetB wrote:
So as a win win situation keep the 'whatever bookkeeping' name and then have a little strap line under it saying Accountcy Service Provider - hey presto you've covered all the bases!

Yes, like on Kris' logo

BudgetB · Guru

ICBUK wrote:
BudgetB wrote:
So as a win win situation keep the 'whatever bookkeeping' name and then have a little strap line under it saying Accountcy Service Provider - hey presto you've covered all the bases!
Yes, like on Kris' logo

I hadn't noticed that before. So since 09.39 this morning he has gone from toying with the idea to having it on his logo??!

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

No, It's been like that for a couple of weeks. Like I said, I was toying with it for a wee while.

I changed it on the website, when I changed the text of the homepage to monitor any difference. I got 3 new clients last week. Coincidence? perhaps.

I am almost convinced that there is money to be made by specialising in sole traders and offering a one stop shop for them. For me this would be a good time to make that move if I am going to, as I don't currently have any limited companies on my books.

A bit more thought first though.

Kris

NickCraggs · Guru

It would be interesting to hear where Frauke and James feel the level IV qualifications fit in with bookkeepers, as both the IAB and ICB currently do/will offer these, whcih cover things such as corporation tax etc.

Are these still within the remit of a bookkeeper or an "accountancy service provider" or even an accountant? Are these not on a par with level IV aat memebers who call themselves accountants (which is a different discussion)

I think the roles are being blurred but i don't think it is a bad thing, just confusing for clients.

ADAS · Guru

ICBUK wrote:
The Industry could try to further define the boundries based on 'risk' or turnover or the level of advice.
The ICB has not gone this far yet, but there have been discussions. Perhaps you all should attend the bookkeepers summit and debate the topic

Hi James.

Will the "future" of the ICB be debated at the bookkeepers summit?

(apologies to the OP for taking the thread off-topic)

ICBUK · Guru

Hi Nick, Tony,

The 'future' as in where it goes on various subjects probably will be discussed during the bookkeepers forum/panel. The summit is meant for all bookkeepers, not just ICB members, although members do get a discount.

I think more and more the topic of should what a bookkeeper/accountant does be more about the risk/turnover/size of a business, rather than just flat saying final accounts, is coming up.

i.e. identifying that there is a difference between the accounts of a 1 man band ltd and Walmart biggrin

BudgetB · Guru

ICBUK wrote:
I agree with Tony,
The Industry could try to further define the boundries based on 'risk' or turnover or the level of advice.
The ICB has not gone this far yet, but there have been discussions. Perhaps you all should attend the bookkeepers summit and debate the topic

There is a (probably very sad) part of me that quite wants to have breakfast at the Houses of Parliament!

ICBUK · Guru

BudgetB wrote:
There is a (probably very sad) part of me that quite wants to have breakfast at the Houses of Parliament!

I did it at the last conference and it was very nice. I have been to many meetings before but to meet people at breakfast made it feel more like a family in a way. That and the wonderful building and views really adds to the whole experience of a conference.

ICBUK · Guru

oh and there will be an MP there to question biggrin

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

I'll be bringing along a blow torch and a pair of pliers then!

betty121 · Senior Member

Hi everyone,

This is a very interesting thread and as I will be starting my bookkeeping business next year I have read with great interest.

Kris - I too was thinking of specialising in sole traders only and offering a complete accountancy service. I think the self employed/ sole trader self assessment market could be quite lucrative for a bookkeeper licensed for year end accounts and self assessment.

Does anyone have any idea how much an accountant on average might charge for this service? I was thinking as a bookkeeper I could provide this service cheaper and still have a fairly profitable business?

Does anyone else specialise in sole traders?

Elizabeth

BobHarper · Guru

We have decide to go for accounting services and have accountants to support local bookkeepers so they can offer the full service. For various reasons we are specialising in micro and small businesses and focussing on business advice not just bookkeeping, accounts and tax. I have put a page on our Website with a SWOT analysis for bookkeepers that you may find interesting.