Happy New Year to all,
(I posted this in recruitment jobs section perhaps the wrong place)
Just wondering if anyone has had experience hiring other self employed bookkeepers to work for your bookkeeping practice.
I run a growing practice and require bookkeepers to work onsite at various clients. I have read the HMRC rules but it isn't entirely clear. Some answers to their questions seem to fit employed and some self employed. If for instance they work 3 days a week for me and 1 day a week for someone else on a self employed basis should I be employing them due to the hours they are working for us? I know based on HMRC's website depends on how many times you answer yes to questions however as I said not clear I answer some yes and some no so just wondering how others hiring bookkeepers handle this.
Zero hour contracts is an option. Does anyone have any thoughts on those.
Thanks and hope you all have had a lovely Christmas and New Year!
Mel
I just happen to attend one workshop today, and there was "employment status" mentioned in the class, which I am not sure could help you: It is said that in general (not particularly for bookkeepers, but I think it could apply for bookkeepers), that if someone is self-employed, if this person does jobs for an agent (not sure if you could call yourself an agent in this case), then the person will be "employed" as the person's pay will be on the agent's pay scheme as a matter of fact. And any other job this person does will be "self-employed". So the person is on both "employed" and "self-employed". All the contracts of course needs to be clear about it. I hope this makes sense.
I think there is always a question is out of the box, and I would call them to clarify if you are really not sure.
The law says to determine whether a person is an employee or self-employed, consider the following accessment:
1. Does the person own the tools they use in working? (in the case of a bookkeeper, it could mean the question: Do they own their own working computer, software etc?)
2. Does the person have the ability to delegate? ie can the person go to your client to carry out his duty in the name of your company or in his name? Does the person act as your representative?
3. Does the person have the right to choose which hours to work? Or you dictate their working hours.
4. Is it just you this person works for full-time or does this person work for other organisation(s)?
5. Can the person take holidays without restrictions? Or you dictate when they can.
6. Does the person have the right to refuse or accept work?
7. Does the person earn his payment by a regular method?
8. How regular is his working hours? Is it consistent week in, week out?
Depending on how you answer yes or no to this question, is how HMRC will access employee employment status.
So if you take on employees on self-employment basis, ensure to operate in such a way that these questions are rightly answered and clearly stated on your contract with the self-employed.
Thanks for the replies. I understand the Agent status but she does invoice me for her hours so it isn't like she is filling in a timesheet and we are paying her like an agency so she does invoice me under her own company name.
Stevendi23 - The problem is I will answer yes to some of those questions and no to others so it isn't clear cut. Such as, she does own her own tools when she works from home for me but she also goes out to my clients so she would be using their computers as their accounting programmes will be on them, and yes she is representing my company as the client is engaged by me not her. She is sub-contracted by me to do the work. Yes she can choose her hours to a certain extent but sometimes as bookkeeping dictates she does have to meet deadlines such as paying suppliers has to be met but she can choose what days she wants to work and how many hours she spends there. If she has to go she can as long as the work in completed by deadlines set it is fine. She does work for another bookkeeper 1 day a week. She can take holidays whenever she wants, we cover. Yes she can refuse or accept work. Her hours are pretty consistent week in week out depending again on the level of paperwork for those clients when she goes in which you would expect in a bookkeeping role. So as I said bit yes and no. I think I'm going to have to consult HMRC on this one.
I'm surprised there are not more people on this forum in a similar position.
In the ICB's experience the HMRC seem to concentrate on points 3 and 6 from Steve's post.
So even if the person works for others, if HMRC think you are dictacting when they do the work, they will say they are employed by you.
So I guess a way you should prove this is to always put in writing (email) times the clients are available and let the person pick which times they want to do the work.
Also have something in place if they say no, for whatever reason, like you going yourself, or another sub contractor.
It is quite often a grey area, which is why you should try and always put things in writing (emails are ok), and get them to confirm to you as such. Also you might want to call the ICB and get advice. They will most likely confirm what I have said, but you can then document you have got advice, and the ICB would be able to confirm this should HMRC get upset.
Great! Thanks everyone! Just need to get it all clear in my head because we will need more sub-contractors as we are growing nicely but want to make sure I'm not breaking any rules of course and everyone is being treated fairly too! James, I will take you up on the advice of calling the ICB, I am a member after all and hadn't considered it!! Crazy don't know why!!! Sorry!!
Hi Steven, we are happy to take details of bookkeepers who are available to help out as and when. We can't promise anything of course but would love to have great bookkeepers we can call upon as we grow. If you could email me your work experience etc that would be great. mel@mndbookkeeping.co.uk
Thanks and I can give you a call to discuss how we work.
