New Client - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

New Client

Wella · Expert

Hi Kris

I think I would treat them all as individuals as you are suggesting, and invoice each individual company. They are going to need individual invoices for their accounts.

Again, I agree that as you are making a contract with seperate entities, then you need a letter of engagement for each (along with seperate MLR records as well).

All this assumes they are all independant, and not part of a group.

Bill

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

It's the strangest setup I've seen Bill. There's obviously a reason. Some of the companies own other companies. The guy I met who seemed to be the 'big cheese' isn't a director of any, but the manager of one seems to be the director of most of them.

To be honest, I'm now worrying about my MLR due diligence. I may need to walk away from this one, something just doesnt sit right.

Kris

Peasie · Expert

Reading this the first name that comes into my mind is Craig Whyte (note below). I get suspicious when one person has so many different companies. There may be legitimate reasons for the person you are talking about.

I wouldn't walk away though. If he passes due diligence then how is there a problem? If he pays on time - you will be able to see this by looking at his books anyway. If he is up to something dodgy at a later date then report him.

I was carrying out my own investigations into someone that had put in a planning application in my old village. It was in the name of a limited company. Himself and another were directors of the same companies. One company was dissolved then one of the other companies changed its name to the name of the dissolved company. Very dodgy goings on.

Note : This name Craig Whyte is in the news just now although someone reading at a later date may wonder.

Amanda · Expert

Kris,

They have spilt the companies up to avoid Tax/ VAT etc???

The only reason I say this is I use to have a client (really bad one anyway) and his new accountant (from down the pub) told him to split his company up into 2 to avoid paying any VAT and actually get a refund each quarter. Of course alarm bells were ringing and I stopped worked for him shortly afterwards!

Why would one of the companies own other ones etc and why is there the need for 6? Do they all do the same thing?

Was it a company buy out perhaps where the managers brought out the company?

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Hi Amanda,

It's not a VAT thing, they're all VAT registered. I may be getting worried over nothing, but I'm not sure. I also broke my own golden rule on pricing at the meeting so have really underpriced the work. But it will give me a chance to move to a real office space and possibly even take on a new employee and is a springboard to other work too.

Oh dear.

Kris

Amanda · Expert

Kris,

Sometimes you have to take a hit to move upwards, maybe delve abit deeper and then make you mind up?
What about pulling the accounts on companies house to have a look at them?

Peasie · Expert

Amanda wrote:
Kris,

Sometimes you have to take a hit to move upwards, maybe delve abit deeper and then make you mind up?
What about pulling the accounts on companies house to have a look at them?

http://companycheck.co.uk

http://www.duedil.com/

Save the £1 and get them free from the above

BobHarper · Guru

Kris - I would recommend you ask the client a few more questions so you get an understanding of why there are multiple companies. It could be different shareholder interests. And, why would you offer discounts just because someone gives you lots of work, that just makes you less profitable and less able to serve them. That's not good for you or them.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Yeah Bob. I see that in the cold light of day. But you sit in a room with a snake oil salesman and say no

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

I had a look in duedil peasie, thats really what started the alarm bells. I'll need to just have a think about it.

Cheers

Kris

BobHarper · Guru

I am very clear, I say at the start of my first meeting that the purpose is to get a good understanding and may need to email/call if anything occurs to me afterwards. I they push for a fee quote I explain that I will put a proposal together with different options. I'd suggest you look at your sales process and how you position meetings.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Thanks for your input Bob. I'm sure we all wish we could always be so clear at all times. Like the vast number of humans I will hold my hands up and say I'm fallible, however having already outlined that I recognised this error in my second post I'm not sure how helpful you were in hammering it home in the way you did.

Kris

BobHarper · Guru

Kris - not hammering, just explaining how the "sales" pressure can be reduced. Stating upfront what the objective of the meeting is helps you as much as the prospect.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Bob, I do understand this. I'm glad you've never felt pressured into giving more ground than you plan to in a meeting. In actual fact while doing this I was put so at ease that I didn't realise what was happening until I left the room, and by then it was too late.

I wonder if anyone else has ever felt like this? Or am I alone?

Kris

Amanda · Expert

NO I'm sure you are not alone!!!!

I use to be one of those Sales persons although on the phone as oppose to face to face, must say I wasn't that slithery although I did enjoy ripping people off!

Must say I'm not like that now though. lol
Its different when you work for yourself you have to be more responsible!

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Thanks Amanda,

I don't mind people getting a sale, we all need to do it. Personally I like to walk away knowing everyone got a good deal. When someone feels ripped off you don't get the best from them. Having said that, in this particular deal I didn't get ripped off but I did agree to an equivalent of about £15 per hour which is below my normal rates. My main concerns which I went a bit off track with was the setup of the businesses.

I have decided that as long as I carry out my due diligence in line with ICB guidelines there is no reason not to take the work on. Who knows, I may find a local bookkeeper who is happy to take the work on an outsource basis later.

Thanks to everyone. Sorry if I got a bit nippy Bob, no one likes being told what they did wrong after they've done it. They usually know by then.

Kris

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Maybe I'm not being clear Neil. I actually think I need to apologise if my posts have been a bit blunt over the weekend and beginning of the week. I've been in a foul mood since Friday after biting into a burger and breaking a filling with a bit of bone in it. Couldn't get a dentist to yesterday and thats the pain just going now.

My mrs has sent me to my office all weekend and the kids just give me sideway glances. I have a lot of making up to do I think.

Kris

-- Edited by kjmcculloch83 on Tuesday 21st of February 2012 03:07:41 PM

Spamkebab · Expert

Just about now i am mostly finding this free peek into other peoples business fascinating, it may wear off, but i doubt it. I'm thinking of every business i know of and having a looky see what the goss is.

It was me that definitely read it wrong Kris. But i'll accept apologies all day long. In fact i could do with an abundance of them to pass along myself.

I don't need toothache for my missus to want rid of me.

-- Edited by Spamkebab on Tuesday 21st of February 2012 03:39:33 PM

Amanda · Expert

HI Everyone,

The companies that Peasie suggested to check companies information from do the said companies that you are checking get an email /letter to say that you are checking them out???

I know that is a daft question but I need to pull someones accounts (not one of my clients) to do abit of research on them but obviously don't want them to be informed that its me thats pulled the accounts??

Its nothing dodgy that I am doing just checking out some competition!

thanks

Wella · Expert

Hi Amanda

I have used

http://www.duedil.com/

quite a bit, and find it really useful. I am 99.999999999% that there is no communication to the company you are checking out.

HTH

Bill

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Hi amanda,

Further to Bills post. I can confirm 100% that duedil don't communicate with the company. They just compile and provide access to information in the public domain free. Its a good service but I see they are going to be doing an advanced 'paid for' service too soon.

Kris

Amanda · Expert

thanks guys,
I have just download the accounts I wanted but they are only abbreviated ones.

If it says the the Director has a current account and balance due from the company is £150K would that amount be made up if Divs and also perhaps things that he has bought for the company from personal account/Credit card?

The reason I am asking this is there wouldn't be much for him to buy it is not a manufacturing company. So would that mean that perhaps he has taken it as Divs and wages (not all of it but a good chunk of it?)

When it says Profit of £140K thats just for one year I presume? As it shows a different figure for the previous year.

Sorry to ask so many questions!

Peasie · Expert

kjmcculloch83 wrote:
Hi amanda,

Further to Bills post. I can confirm 100% that duedil don't communicate with the company. They just compile and provide access to information in the public domain free. Its a good service but I see they are going to be doing an advanced 'paid for' service too soon.

Kris

I don't know what the "but" is for - I'm looking forward to see what they "paid for" service is. What is currently free will remain free. There is one slight problem with Duedil - sometimes the website details will have the latest accounts filed but the actual files to download don't change and you need to email them. Sometimes - not always.

And with Companycheck sometimes the files for previous years just aren't there even though there is a link for them. The details are on the website but I like reading the notes that come with them.

As more and more people are filing their accounts directly online and it's probabaly mandatory now anyway then less and less information is available. People file abbreviated accounts rather than the full thing. But when it was an accountant filing by post sometimes even the whole Profit & Loss account was included.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

The but is for it is good, but it may get better. I think you're reading my sentence all wrong Peasie. It's not a bad but.

Kris

Spamkebab · Expert

Must say i read it wrong too Kris, humblest apologies, i see what you mean now upon reading your post correctly.

(I too have been having sneaky peekies)

Neil.

Peasie · Expert

Spamkebab wrote:
Must say i read it wrong too Kris, humblest apologies, i see what you mean now upon reading your post correctly.

(I too have been having sneaky peekies)

Neil.

The good thing about sites like these is if you get sent changes by email for companies you follow. Any time a new document is filed at CH they'll send you an email. Some will do a weekly email with changes for all the companies involved. If there's a change of director, a mortgage etc. For those of you that have lives this may not be important. But for saddo nosey gits like me it's great.

Wella · Expert

kjmcculloch83 wrote:
Maybe I'm not being clear Neil. I actually think I need to apologise if my posts have been a bit blunt over the weekend and beginning of the week. I've been in a foul mood since Friday after biting into a burger and breaking a filling with a bit of bone in it. Couldn't get a dentist to yesterday and thats the pain just going now.

My mrs has sent me to my office all weekend and the kids just give me sideway glances. I have a lot of making up to do I think.

Kris

-- Edited by kjmcculloch83 on Tuesday 21st of February 2012 03:07:41 PM

Just to make you feel a bit better Kris smile

I am off to the dentist now to start a course of treatment.

About three years ago I got a smack on the cheek by a plank of wood (accident, not attacked), it cracked a tooth. had to have the dreaded root canal work/ crown cost £200 plus. Last year the adjacent tooth cracked (I suspect weakend from said clonk on cheek), more root canal work/ another crown another £200 plus. Had loadsa pain for weeks, turns out the original crown (by another dentist, incidently) wasn't right, so now having both crowns removed, a bridge fitted. first job today is removal of original crown, as it has to heal for a couple of months before bridge can be installed, then second crown removed and bridge fitted, another £200 plus. Would have been cheaper to do it myself, and as I hate injections, I opt for no anesthetic, if I can avoid it.

Maybe speak later (if I can yawn )

Bill