Having opted down the self employed route myself, I have to say that although I can understand some of the negative comments made in terms of the salary, I have to partly agree with Shamus in that the experience gained will outweigh any shortfall in salary.

But in addition, it does take some time to gain your own clients (if you go down the self employed route) to the value of £ 13 - 16k - so it's not like we can all say that being self employed that your going to earn x as i'm sure others on here will agree that when you start-up it's really tough and can take an unknown time to reach your salary goals.

Based on how the job marked is currently and also how hard it is to gain a client base of this amount, I think that it's a fair wage for somebody looking to gain experience in a professional environment. Whether this person chooses to stay empoyed or to go self employed, this exerience will be invaluable to them

Just my opinions,

Ben

-- Edited by woody88 on Tuesday 21st of February 2012 06:42:55 PM

About the going rate in the SW, accounts assistants jobs tend to be advertised for between £14k-16k, bit of a joke really, I was earning more then that answering the phones for EDF!!

Blackmoreaccounts wrote:

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I was earning more then that answering the phones for EDF!!

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Hi Edward,

Small world.

I developed their Customer Information system

Actually, I developed London Electricities CIS, and then they got bought by the Americans who were well out of their depth so sold the company to the French.

Wonder how many customers don't realise what EDF actually stands for?

£13k is less than an admin assistant was getting when I was at the local authority. I can see the reasons why someone may do this, as outlined by Shaun, but I'm with you Neil.

Kris

look on it as a loss leader.

When you're ACCA (I was going to say "If you go ACCA" but I'm actually figuring that it's a foregone conclusion where you're going to be heading with your studies!) then until you have two years post qualification working in a relevant role for a suitably qualified accountant you cannot get a practicing certificate to go into business for yourself.

Is it not better to take £13k for 2 years then the potential of £40k plus after that than around £22k now going up by the rate of inflation.

I can't lecture on this one as I did it myself by taking the money now rather than more money later when I skipped studying law at Uni for immediate readies to spend on fast cars and loose women now.

Still reckon that this one is a gem of a job ad regardless as to the rate offered.

Which part do you disagree with, Ben?


Good talk everyone by the way.

Well, that sounds par for the course!

When I came on board it was on a freelance basis as the systems architect to stress test a system that LE had bought. It proved to be a none scaleable sollution. Fine if you were a little American energy supplier but no good at all for the UK (surprisingly Americans have a great many energy companies meaning that each has a far smaller customer base than the likes of LE).

It took some time to get through to management that if it didn't perform then it didn't work. Something taking five+ minutes to bring back the right answer is really of no more use than a system that brings back the wrong answer instantaneously.

None of the permanent staff at LE wanted anything to do with the project as it was deemed to be a disaster in waiting (reinforced by the fact that two management consultancies had previously tried and failed to implement the system that I rejected). This led to a situation where absolutely everyone involved was an IT contractor representing some of the best people in the market at that time (which is what happens when you get IT people hiring IT people rather than a companies management messing things up).

We gave the company what they wanted and needed rather than what they asked for. The system was a great success but as soon as that happened of course they got rid of all of the people that wrote it and the permanent staff who had wanted nothing to do with it up until that stage were suddenly the heroes of the hour.

My area was customer billing and all of the background calculation modules (definitely born to be an accountant methinks!). It's a fair bet that many of the green screens that you will have used to enter data were designed or developed by myself. (If they were windows screens that you used then that just used screen scrapers and the green screens were still very much there under the bonnet).

Anyway, glad that you liked one of my babies... Don't suppose that you've ever bought pre packaged travel money from RBS or Natwest have you as that's mine as well.

TTFN,

Shaun.

It may take a while Shaun but i'm sure you will eventually come full circle within a thread.

We can take orange to orange grove, where abouts in England would it be hot enough to grow oranges? I think Somerset would be ideal, Oh by the way, there's a job going in Somerset........

Neil.

Actually had a thought that made me giggle after i posted last. (i initially thought Revels were made by Nestle, but anyhow)

Revels are made by Mars who are a competitor of Cadburys and isn't Cadbury in Somerset etc. etc. 

-- Edited by Spamkebab on Thursday 23rd of February 2012 04:02:57 PM

-- Edited by Spamkebab on Thursday 23rd of February 2012 04:13:22 PM

Sooooooo.........having gone from a job advertisement to electricity suppliers....ahem.

Anyway i have been checkng out the lower salaried job offers around the Greater Manchester area and can find nowt that (when reading between the lines, or trying to) offers any kind of solid details of scope for progression. This seems more like a case of exploitation and cheap labour in a struggling market, more than a case of starting low but gaining experience under a fantastic chartered accountant that will enable you to command 30k after 2-3 years.

The lower salaried jobs seem to be aimed at school leavers and such but worded so's the advert doesn't discriminate about age.

Also offering low salaries and asking for experience as well as qualifications points me to my above comments on slave labour.

Maybe age has made me cynical and sarcastic, but hey, i'm still smiling.

Neil.

Well happy thats off me chest innit.

Spamkebab wrote:

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Sooooooo.........having gone from a job advertisement to electricity suppliers....ahem.

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 I feel that any thread that ends on the same subject that it started on is a wasted thread

If people knew what the thread was going to be about when they opened it where would be the fun in that.

Think of this as the forum equivalent of a bag of Revels... Those that end up talking about Sage are to my mind the Orange one's

Anyway. Where next think you one this magical mystery tour?

Spamkebab wrote:

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isn't Cadbury in Somerset etc. etc. 

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Not sure if they have/had a plant down there.

They should be in Bournville in Birmingham but Kraft put paid to that one!

Sure that the Quaker founders of Cadburies are waiting in chocolate maker heaven with baseball bats ready for when the last cadburies management team joins them.

Now that stories one seriously good reason why you don't trade more than 50% of your company in the open market.

I think that it was the sale of stock from just 40 fund managers than put paid to another British company.

 

Hiya matey,

it wasn't taken agressively and all of the above was just pure debate with everyone having sound arguements.

The interesting point that it emphasises is that people spend a fortune on training to get jobs (not this one) sometimes paid less than the office cleaner (and that's nothing against cleaners either).

Chatting with yourself has recorded on here for others to view the fact that the advertised rates bandied by some training providers are quite far from the reality of this industry.

People can expect very low rates in the hope that if they work hard one day they will own their own practice and reap the rewards later of sacrifices made now.

I think that this is why many in practice want to work in industry (for the money) but miss that many in industry want to work in practice (for the freedom and the feeling that you are actually making a difference).

Personally I'm about done with industry.... Do you remember the bit at the end of Life on Mars where they are all sitting around a table talking in politically correct terms and for Sam who has just got back from 1972 this is now totally alien to him and not at all what his role should be about...

Been there, done that, got the T shirt, writing the book. Fed up to the back teeth of people who talk and talk and talk and never do a damn thing but try to find a way of claiming the glory from those who do actually do something.

Give me work in practice everytime as the money from industry is no compensation for the overwhelming desire to turn up to work on a Monday morning with an M16.

I remember once that I was working in the head office of one of the big banks and a newstart asked quite innocently how many people worked in the building.

My answer was "About 20% of them".

Wonder if I should pitch the M16 idea to their management? (or AK74, I'm adaptable to my delivery method). I can see the sales pitch now... Your headcount would be reduced by 80% and you productivity would at least double... Sure that I can sell them on that one.

Success, we're well of peist again...

£13,000 - £16,000 ..... Full time?!!!!!

I wouldn't get out of bed for that.

(Don't be too cruel with your retorts...was just putting my two pennies in)

Hi Georgie,

I have to reiterate the point that this is a loss leader thpugh that would open doors.

If it was me I would definitely get out of bed for that and do a damn good job no matter how many hours were expected as at the end of the day you get your post qualifiaction experience signed off by an accountant meaning that you can eventually work for yourself as a chartered / chartered certified and reap the benefits of taking lower pay up front.

If the rate is really low then you get working family tax credits to top it up until you put the money back into the system later once you are in practice under your own banner.

Funnily enough my school reports contain, "Neil always finishes his work within the given time frame but continues to disrupt the class"

Your above response to G's post actually reminded me of a metal/woodwork class i used to take in secondary school, the other kids (as we lined up single file against the corridor wall awaiting the teacher) said to me one time, "Neil when we get in there ask him a question", i replied "why?" and one of the kids said "cos when you ask him a question you both start arguing and then its time to go home"

I never realised.

(When they said arguing they actually meant "healthy debate" but my class wasn't full of wannabe accountants, doctors or solicitors.

-- Edited by Spamkebab on Friday 24th of February 2012 05:43:42 PM

I have never taken any of the salary comparisons offered up by training providers seriously, the number one fault being the word average. Take the figures from central London and add them to central Manchester then divide by 2 and all is well lol.

I knew from the start that this would be hard going, no pain no gain after all. I did however let my guard slip with level 3 AAT and thought i was the bees knees but level 4 has put paid to that, the slog begins.

Been on the Tax Credits calculator this morning working with my wifes part time wage and a salary of circa 13k for myself and i must say things look a lot better.

I may just have a new lead, now where is that ellusive bobby dazzler of a job offer in practise within walking distance of my bed?

Neil.

I don't think anyone's metioned this:

Perhaps the role is part time, given that the number of days annual leave is 20, but the statutory minimum is 28.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/Timeoffandholidays/DG_10029788

If that's the case, then the f/t equivalent salary would be higher.

Before anyone shouts me down, more likely that the assumption is the difference is made up of bank holidays.

That was a "should have gone to specsavers" moment lol

I've seen part time upto 30 hours, which in my opinion is a part time full time position as it doesn't leave any time to pick the kids up or maybe increase your income with a second job.

What a can of worms gbm has opened now. This thread has got to be the most meanderest i've seen to date. Shaun still managed to plug the big bang theory.

I reckon SomersetAccountants have been back on here, just for a peek, and thought "Oh god, i hope none of them lot applies" lol.

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Hi Georgi,

maybe best I answer one bit at a time. Your comments are in black, my responses in blue

Sorry I have to disagree with you.

No worries, it's a forum and I'm not always right... Except when I'm debating with Neil and then even if I'm wrong I won't admit it

How do you know it's a loss leader?

It's a loss leader for anyone who needs to get post qualification experience under a suitably qualified accountant before they are allowed to practice by their supervisory body. Trust me, these positions are quite rare to find.

Without the experience requirement they will not have the opportunity to make the real money that only comes in practice when one is the boss.

And what if you are not eligible for tax credits?

As in if your household already has enough income not to need them or you are under 25 with no children. What sort of scenario are we talking about? My impression is that Working family tax credits are available to those who need them.

And I really can't believe that they would employ someone just for 2 years, knowing that after that they would get their practicing certificate.

Accountants employ in the hope that people will stay for longer but realising that there are situations where they may need to start thinking about serious pay rises or partnership offers or just letting the person go with the hope that they don't question the restriction of trade that will be in their contract too much (For the most part they're pretty much unenforcable).

Just reread the above. Note that partnership offers are seldom free. Employee's are expected to either bring a substantial number of clients with a good annual yield to the practice or buy into the practice. And that latter option is often mortgage type money that we're talking about. 

Surely they would be worried they would set up across the street as competition?

See comments above.

The contract of employment will have a clause in it restricting employee's from poaching clients or setting up in close competition for a given period after leaving the practice (I think mostly the clause is 3-5 miles). This is a restriction of trade and whilst the poaching clients may be enforcable, where you trade from is very unlikely to be.

Of course, the other issue there is that accountants depend on each other so the last thing one wants is to allienate yourself from other accountants. Taking that into account even though the restriction may not be enforcable it would be a good idea to comply with it regardless.

I have to say I feel they are just taking advantage of the current job climate and think they should be ashamed of themselves for offering such a low wage.

Its nothing to do with the current job market. It's always been this way.

It's certainly not by accident that at times accountancy feels like an old boys club!

Years ago people would have paid the accountants to take them on as apprentices with no salary as it was expected that their family would support them during training. Anyway, minimum wage legislation put paid to that... Actually, sure that I read somewhere that there had been a couple of conservative MP's who had their knuckles rapped for perpetuating the practice for their children (And who wouldn't if you can afford it and it gives your children the start in life that they need... And before any socialists take up the flag on that one, look how many offspring of labour MP's are in private education (pot, kettle, etc.)).

Bodies like the ACCA have to some extent perpetuated the need for people to work in a suitable practice regardless as to the salary if they want to have their own business.

Some employers pay low wages, others offer reasonable wages but expect 24/7 commitment with no paid overtime.

For the really unfortunate you get a combination of the worst parts of the above two.

All in all to my mind the bit that matters is the experience and any money that they give in addition to the experience should be considered a bonus.

Best wishes to all those hard working bookkeepers out there

You too.

Blackmoreaccounts wrote:

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Check the thread title ;)

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Of course!

Hiya matey,

which post are you thinking of????

Ur definitely not the class clown... To quote Mr Ollivander from the Potter films

"I think it is clear that we can expect great things from you. After all, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named did great things. Terrible! Yes. But great".

Spamkebab wrote:

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lol i fail at failing.

 

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Not exactly the sort of thing that you would have gotten a must try harder for at school!

I got so many of those!

In hindsight I should have realised that my answers were fine. They were just asking the wrong questions.

Hi R:)

don't suppose that you have a link to the latest tax credits changes that you mention do you?