@Kris - but it's true; software, training and the support of an accountant does enable someone to maintain the books of a business, or do you disagree?

I do not suggest business owners do their own bookkeeping, I encourage them to look at new technology/ways of working and work with bookkeepers/accountants who use this technology and add value.

It's undoubtedly easier for a non-bookkeeper than it was 30 years ago. In particular software has 'wizards'; a searchable help manual and forums like this are at the touch of a button. Generally there is a whole internet out there including government websites and webinars off the top of my head.

These things didn't exist before and I imagine a clerk needs to approach the accountant less than before for technical knowledge.

Figurate wrote:

---

I am starting to think that these things go round in circles, and perhaps in a few year's time, someone will be peddling the latest new management practice of: "hourly billing" (and make a mint out of writing a "best selling management 'bible'" on the topic)

---

Completely agree and your talking to a fellow cynic (I know, you would never guess from my cloud computing stance ).

In my role in banking I've lost count of the times that a change of management has seen a change from centralised to decentralised control only for the next change of management to go in the opposit direction.

Of course each group makes their bonus by having a different bunch of management accountants measuring performance in a different way and those at the coal face just shake our heads in disbelief and carry on regardless of senior management and the management consultants that they bring in as playthings for us in the sure knowledge that todays great breakthrough is tomorrows failed methodology that someone retired on the back of the success of.

Greatest failures that I've seen are :

 - Matrix Management. (So who exactly is in charge of me?)

 - Agile (If your not holding the rubber dinosaur you can't talk).

 - Telon (Lets deskill everyone as the software knows best... Its didn't!)

 - Outsourcing (Does anyone here speak Hindi?)

There are actually some great management theorists and some excellent methodologies but there tends to be a serious issue with goal congruence in that management want quick results now rather than better results five years down the way when there is very likely to be a different manager in charge.

Similarly, when Crunchers thought that there was money to be made from Bookkeepers they aligned their business one way and now they're allighing there business in a different direction.

Surely that means that Bob would be better off trying to sell the Crunchers brand on Accountingweb than here where he will only be met with reactions such as those evident in this thread.

kind regards,

Shaun.

p.s. just reread the above. Didn't mean for it to read for Bob to go away. We all still appreciate alternate views even where we don't all agree with them.

What I meant was that if the brand is now not a bookkeeping brand then attempting to sell it on a bookkeeping site is not the most cost effective use of his time. (Still like my analogy of meat pasties and vegitarians!).

-- Edited by Shamus on Friday 13th of April 2012 08:09:30 PM

At least on this forum we can have a discussion without it descending into the post deletions and bans that seem to frequent Accounting web.

I would guess that Bob is pitching it here as if he can convince bookkeepers that their skills are becoming redundant then they may pay to "up skill" [ Bob's terminology -not mine] to provide an accountancy service whereas accountants would believe that they already do that.

Although I may of course be wrong.

Hal AFA FFTA

ooh, not heard of "rightscoping" before - sounds painful.
And what's "agile" as a management method?
My pet cringes are: "personal branding" and "leveraging social media" both sound like mighty hard-work ways of (respectively) making sure you are fully dressed before leaving the house and having a chat over the internet.
I do wonder what happened to just getting on with things.
(loved the metaphor of advertising meatpies on a vegetarian website, btw - highlight of the thread)

Hi Louise,

rightscoping is management speak for they're going to make everyone redundant. For example :

There's been a paradym shift in the busines strategy resulting in the rightscoping of several of the current projects.

Translation.

We've overspent on the budget so we're cancelling all of the projects and everyone currently employed on them is out of a job.... Except the managers of course who will be moved on to destroy the next batch of projects.

Agile is one of the flavour of the moment methodolodies. It's a fast project development methodology which is "supposed" to cut time to market development time. Which basically means that management want the same results but they want to miss out things like proper design and testing of the product because those bits cost too much... Of course the fact that the project has to be rewritten three times and you have massive overruns can't possibly be down to missing out steps of the V tree model. (Think tortoise and hare).

My big memory of the implementation of Agile at the insurance company that I was working with was that there was a daily meeting in front of the office white board where everyone had to give a presentation as to where their project was but you weren't allowed to talk unless you were holding the rubber dinosaur.

Of course, me being me refused to play silly games and pointed out to the client that I'm a consultant that you've hired in to sort out your systems, not a child in a kindergarden class. I informed them in no uncertain terms that they were paying a lot of money to listen to me so I'll speak when I have something to say whether I'm holding a damn rubber toy or not... They never asked my to hold the dinosaur again!

Like yourself I'm a firm believer in getting the job done rather than playing silly management games often from managers who have never had any training in management but got promoted on the back of doing a completely unrelated job well (or just promoted out of harms way which I've also seen!).

My approach seems to work well as clients keep coming back where those consultants who just suck up to management without ever really doing anything just seem to disappear after a while.

It depends what you mean by support. If you mean standing behind them while they click the buttons then I could build a house with the support of a builder, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't fall down around my ears if they left me alone.

As Steve says, why not engage the services of a training provider rather than an accountant?  It's about understanding your core service, I'm not a teacher.

Kris

-- Edited by kjmcculloch83 on Saturday 14th of April 2012 06:46:18 PM

Sorry Bob, but your now backtracking and talking nonsense. Training was mentioned 10 times on page one of this thread. 8 times by Shaun, once by steve, and once by you.

The one time you talked about training is was in your fourth post where you talked about business owners having training to do their own books with support from their accountant. You chose not to expand on your point.

As I remember seeing on Aweb someone saying to you "Could you be any more patronising?", something I echo here.

Kris

BobHarper wrote:

---

What I have notice you haven't done is answer my question whether you agree that someone can do bookkeeping properly with software and the support of an accountant.

And, I am not back tracking, just trying to explain/defend myself from you that (in my opinion) someone can do bookkeeping properly with software and the support of an accountant. By the way, they could also do bookkeeping with software and the support of a bookkeeper, couldnt they?

---

 How much would the Bookkeeper/Accountant charge for the constant support though. It seems to me that they would be better investing the same money into training themselves.

@Kris - it's not about you but the person who asked the question. If they worked with an accountant they could start earning as a bookkeeper.

And, support could mean setting up the software, doing some bookkeeping together, answering some questions and checking every quarter for the first few quarters.

Right, lets try and sort this out before it gets out of hand.

First things first.

General note to our readers.

Crunchers is just a franchise brand that speaks for Crunchers and only Crunchers. It does not speak for either the bookkeeping or accountancy professions as that is the role of the supervisory bodies who have a somewhat different view of the worth to the business community of both well respected professions.

 

Bob,

you state quite clearly that crunchers have moved away from bookkeeping but you still want to post on a bookkeepers forum. That's fine and you are a welcome contributor. However anything that you say to the detriment of the profession or any member of it may in future be censored or removed.

Do not miscontru that comment that genuine debate over such things as the merits (or not) of developments such as cloud offerings would in any way be altered simply because I fundamentally disagree with the Crunchers stance. Healthy debate over such issues is good for the sites readership to gain a well rounded view as to what's going on in the industry and the often strongly held opposing views.

What may be censored are contentious statements that undermine the profession and you cannot get much more contentious than basically stating that this is a totally unneccessary profession where years of training can easily be replaced by a piece of software supported by accountants.

We are looking only for positive contributions on here for the general betterment of the profession, not the furtherment of any individual or indeed the crunchers brand although if that benefits from genuine constructive advice posted on here then so much the better.

I am not however seeing that the posts made in this thread by Crunchers have been for the betterment of the general perception of the bookkeeping profession and have for the most part served only to annoy those working in the profession.

If you would like to raise to issue with Site admin please feel free to write to them as I already have in order to bring this thread to their attention.

 

Kris,

You have made some very valid points but I can sense your anger boiling over and that's not going to be good for the site if we descend into open warfare on here (although I think you know which sides trenches I would be in).

I think that there's rather a lot of accountants that would completely agree about the AAT comment but unfortunately as things stand at the moment Bobs factually correct and AAT qualified bods are accountants.

In real terms I think that we all know that AAT is really more akin to the mising link between bookkeeping and accountancy. Unfortunately bookkeepers look on those whove passed AAT with quiet admiration for gaining an excellent qualification where quite often accountants look down at the qualification as the first part of an accountants training rather than an end in itself.

Funny old business isn't it.

 

Right, just put on my flak jacket and helmet and then wait for the follow up posts.

 

Good post Shamus.

I think everyone has quite rightly had the opportunity to comment and positions are still shall we say polarised.

The heat just needs to come out of it now.

I disagree with Bob on this topic but I am glad he posted it.

If a former book keeping franchise is re-positioning itself it is useful for us to be aware of it even if we disagree with the thinking behind it.

I have no connection with any franchise nor indeed am I in practice, although I have over 20 years accounts experience from the National Audit Office through to specialising in Solicitors Accounts work, but I will hopefully be launching a practice soon. I personally have found the shall we say controversial postings and the debate they provoke on both sides informative.

Hal AFA FFTA

I too understand each side. Bob highlighted a threat to a bookkeepers living and that we daren't stand still. Whether we ally with a franchise, an accountancy firm or 'upskill' (yuk) will determine whether we have a job later on.

I imagine by the time cash disappears, there'll be an extra column for VAT on bank statements. Won't be long before items come ready-marked as revenue or capital; balance sheet or p&l, current or fixed. We're almost doing this now, categorising transactions and ticking boxes -- automation has been with us for decades and will only become more sophisticated.

Right now, it helps if you can think in terms of debits and credits, but for how much longer, I'm not so sure. Happily the UK tax code (and there's nothing basic about it) has trebelled in size since I started, so there's plenty to keep us busy. It's as if the govt. are combating the ease with which accounts can be put together and then shortening the deadline for good measure.

Anyway, this isn't really news. Many of us will have witnessed data-entry clerks working at twice the speed of qualified bookkeepers on the advent of micro-computer. Just a few thoughts that I think might be relevant.

Tim

I think the point is though, bob, the op wanted to be in the bookkeeping business, not bookkeeping for their own business. By the same token as you say bookkeepers don't NEED training, neither do accountants. But if you do either without training or QBE you will come unstuck. I could build a dog kennel for myself, but that doesn't make me a joiner.

My second point is that accountants are NOT bookkeepers, they may once have known, but soon forget. Some may know that I'm almost finished an HNC in Accounts. My lecturer in year 1, a CA, didn't know that you assume a customer will take cash discount before calculating VAT. I have a friend in his final year of an accounting degree who couldn't do accounts to TB for a simple business.

Kris

Perhaps there is Shaun, but the point is just because you have an accountant looking over your shoulder doesnt make you a bookkeeper.

Ok, I've decided to reply...

To quote : "Shamus you and the bookkeeping/accounting profession can choose to ignore and ban comments or you can decide to understand why these comments are being made".

Oh I understand them all too well.

The banking industry has had years of management consultants pushing outsourcing companies telling them that they are the way forwards (or more to the point, take us on and you'll get your bonus!). They profess to being cheaper alternatives who will provide a better service. And invariably they use the reasoning of "well, everyone else is doing it so do you really want to be left behind".

Personal view there is that the management consultants are actually selling the idea of cliffs to lemmings!

Anyway, nothing could be further from the truth than what the banks were being sold by the consultancy firms

Whole departments were closed down on unsubstantiated promises and by the times that the banks realised that outsourcing gave them less control, lack of flexibility, a poorer product, no real financial savings, loss of expertise, etc. (a) the various managers had already made their bonus and either moved on to destroy the next business, or retired before they got rumbled (b) the alternative to outsourcing had been destroyed in order to save the costs necessary to pay for the poorer product so going back was no longer an alternative.

Now let's transpose that to our current scenario.

Bookkeepers and accountants for the most part do an excellent job for their clients who they genuinely care for, you spot when a client is perhaps going down the wrong path and help them back onto the right one. You stay ahead of current developments because clients cannot be expected to run their business and read every accountancy journal and new tax rule.

If the crunchers approach had been to say that only working to trial balance, VAT and Payroll work was dying then that would have been a different debate as like coders in IT I can see the legitimacy of that argument as clients want more of an all round service but cheaper than is supplied by accountants.

Nobody in IT hires coding monkeys anymore. You need to do the technical design of the programs / processes before developing them. In the same way, bookkeepers in this day and age pass trial balance at ICB level II.

ICB Levels III/IV are all about offering services up to filing accounts and tax returns for small businesses but the Crunchers argument would have us believe that this needs "upskilling" to achieve ignoring that it's something that the ICB and IAB already skill bookkeepers in.

Whilst there are still roles for people in data entry but it's really no longer what bookkeeping is about.

The Crunchers approach is to basically categorise bookkeepers as the people who do the data entry and accountants as the people who do the thinking where that is simply not the case and all this talk of "upskilling" is a load of management consultant tosh to try and keep accountants believing that the bookkeeping profession is still where is was twenty years ago which is simply not the case.

In banking unfortunately the managers believed the tripe coming from the management consultants about the people working in IT being coders, something that had not existed since the 70's.

In bookkeeping you are going straight to the end users to convince them that all that they need is software without training... That's an approach that even Sage seem to have backed away from.

The strategy that Crunchers had before of trying to get bookkeepers on board in order increase the market of both parties by being part of a brand seemed to be a good business model. Not one that I would have signed up to but one that I could see working for some and could have proven competition for many freelance bookkeepers.

Should we all be happy that Crunchers have decided to shoot themselves in the foot? Maybe.

The current model of trying to convince the end user that crunchers software is an alternative to having a qualified bookkeeper working with them by making out that bookkeepers in practice are less skilled than they really are simply alienates the crunchers brand from bookkeepers.

The word upskilling is bandied to basically say that bookkeeping is not good enough and you now need to be an accountant. This is at odds with the ICB stance of trying to get greater respect and acceptance of bookkeeping as a profession.

Luckily for crunchers the word accountant is still not protected so can I expect to see a new brand of crunchers franchisee "accountant" who is basically a software support specialist for Xero with much less knowledge than the bookkeepers that exist at the moment?

And on that point, how long would it be before crunchers also turns on the accountants and "upskilled" bookkeepers that they get on board by reducing costs by offshoring the accounts work?

Personally I think that this is only a transient state for Crunchers and at some stage in the future I think that you will reposition yourselves again to be a software company because I'm not seeing that your current business strategy is going to pan out as you expect.

@Shamus we are just about to turn on accountants; we will now only work with a business if we take on the accounts/tax work.

Sorry, but based on the feedback we got in the first couple of years I do not think being perceived as a bookkeeper is enough. But, nor is being seen as a traditional accountant.

Our strategy is based on positioning Crunchers as Alternative Accountants and I am comfortable this is at odds with the ICB stance because this gives people choice. But, everyone in Crunchers must have a professional qualification so they will be more than capable of supporting business owners if they chose to do their own bookkeeping.

@Don we are building the new Website and it should be up and live next month.

@Shamus on what basis do you say the majority of bookkeepers have realigned their services? I do not see that.

Our position is that home based bookkeepers do not have the capability of Crunchers and we believe businesses owners who turnover less than £1 million will welcome a new choice.

Time will tell if we have it right but unlike traditional bookkeepers/accountants time it isnt the basis of our business model/value proposition. Instead, Crunchers is about collaboration, sharing knowledge, new technology, change, specialisation, revenue sharing and creating value for clients which I think/hope that is the future for the profession.

@Shamus - interesting, your experience backs up ours.

I'll be able to be more definite as we will start to engage direct with bookkeepers later this year and find out what they actually offer. Having said that, we don't stop at offering accounts/tax services and have gone into business advisory with a knowledge bank to draw from but I will have a closer look at the IFA.

Large numbers is not our model, we only have room for one person in each area....what we need are people with ambition, drive, energy, some charisma who are entrepreneurial.

You troublemaker Neil!

This one was nicely forgotten with everyone's entrenched but it only takes one stray bullet to break the ceasefire.

Were you t the Reading Festival in 1981? I remember this guy walking down the middle of the crowd then he threw one empty coke can one way and another empty coke can the other. Next thing the sky black with a two way hail of (mostly) empty coke cans.

Don't think that you can even take cans into festivals now not that I mind cos I'm now a respectable person and in no way an ex hippy

Actually, on that point, this morning on radio West Midlands they were asking if you could just take one album to a desert island what would it be.

I was torn between the kick inside by Kate Bush, Floodland by Sisters of Mercy and the Wall by Pink Floyd. After thinking for a moment I said to my boy that I would choose the wall by pink floyd at which point the radio blurted out that they would choose dark side of the moon over the wall.... Both my boy and myself look at radio in disbelief!!!

In hindsight they must have been answering an earlier question but the timing of it coming out of the radio was just freaky.

... And to be honest, I think that the radio was right and I was wrong.

Oh yeh, we're off piest again!

 

P.S. edited due to spelling.

-- Edited by Shamus on Thursday 19th of April 2012 05:16:42 PM

Hi everyone. I have read the posts (well not all of them skimmed through some) and thought I would give my opinion....

I totally get what Bob is saying and used to own a Crunchers Franchise. I have moved on because it wasn't right for me any longer for a few reasons. However, this is not a dig at Bob because I did learn quite a lot about running a business, marketing and selling from him and he was really supportive. Particularly around value and I believe in Bob's ethos 100%.

I don't agree that a business doesn't need a bookkeeper BUT with the likes of the different choices in Accounting and Bookkeeping software coming onto the market, like it or not our Profession is being challenged more than ever. As a practice ourselves we are changing the way we do business and we are flying at the moment but it is tough going.

Bookkeeping is a profession and I believe all businesses need a good bookkeeper but I have taken over some shocking work from "bookkeepers" and am embarrassed sometimes to call myself one and want to distance myself from that word at times. I see myself more as a Finance Manager. Not saying I'm God's gift to the profession as I'm not perfect and have made errors in my time but the "Profession" needs some support. Institutes need to take more care into issuing Practising Licenses without requiring practical experience. They say they are there to support anyone in practice but that simply isn't enough. I know they are looking to change this so hope it is soon to save the reputation of bookkeepers. Having said that we have just signed 4 new clients and their accounts came from a firm of accountants and that is pretty shocking to say the least so whatever a business owner does really doesn't matter as we have bookkeepers and accountants making the same messes!

Business owners simply do not look at hiring a bookkeeper as something they need to run their business. They know bookkeeping has to be done. Accountant and Solicitors yes they need those they feel, bookkeeper NO. Why? Because they feel they can do it themselves or sister, mother, auntie whoever. Therefore they do not see the value in paying what is thought to be high rates for it. This is causing bookkeepers to undercharge for the work which quite frankly I feel validates this perception. In my Practice we as bookkeepers no longer sell our time. Our service as Bob has mentioned is about business support, advice, collaboration, software training, advice etc. Bookkeepers don't need to "upskill" in bookkeeping necessarily but they should perhaps consider upskilling in business knowledge such as selling, marketing, management, budgeting, forecasting, even social media etc. because bookkeeping is undervalued on its own.

In my Bookkeeping Business we offer all sorts of service packages. We have clients set up on software and doing their own bookkeeping and quite successfully but with our support in collaboration with their Accountant so they are not alone and they are happy and confident to do it. With some of the online accounting software it is pretty hard to screw it up with the right training and support which is important to have or else you can screw it up. Ultimately business owners don't want to do bookkeeping, they only try to because they don't want to pay for it or see the value in hiring someone to do it as mentioned. Once you get in the door and work with them such as having them do it themselves with your support and regular review and management to ensure they are doing it correctly they will eventually recognise the value and they will pay you to do it in the end. That is our experience. Almost always our Software users have become bookkeeping clients and they are often the best ones because having done it themselves for awhile they know what is going on and engage with us and value what we do more. Others simply hate it and don't want to do it and they are the easy sell but the price will be an issue so we find ways around that to get what we deserve quite successfully so far.

Like it or not bookkeeping is being challenged by technology and if you read other forums for online accounting software you will see this being discussed. Depending what kind of bookkeeping business you want depends on how you conquer this challenge. My business is making real progress and hope that we will continue to grow as well as we are now, but it will get harder as these online software companies develop I have no doubt about that. We use the likes of Receipt Bank, Xero and Kashflow and they are fab tools for this job but they will put pressure on bookkeepers in the future. No matter you opinions of bookkeeping and what it means. It is just the reality of where we are headed. I believe wholeheartedly in every business having a bookkeeper because we are worth our weight in gold but it is one thing for us to believe it and business owners understanding and valuing it in these current technology times if that makes sense.

Mel.

-- Edited by meldowie on Thursday 19th of April 2012 07:07:02 PM

I class Wish You Were Here as Floyds greatest achievement and also the best album ever made. I would love to be alive in a few hundred years time when schools are studying Pink Floyd alongside Bach and Tchaikovsky, although i may be a little old for school by then. The Wall and Dark Side of the Moon are both great albums but a little too commercial for me, being quite a fan.

Kate Bush made wacky sexy, and knows how to write rude songs.

If i were you Shaun i'd start wearing a tinfoil hat especially if THEY are contacting you via radio, and remember, just because you're paraoid it doesn't mean they aren't following you. lol

Showing my age but I was getting all excited about seeing Faith No More live at Knebworth in July and then it gets cancelled.

Just need to persuade the family that a holiday in the vicinity of their French concert is needed now.

Shame it s not near a beach!

Hal AFA FFTA

Hi Lyndsey,

it's just the tip of the iceberg.

you've also got all student ACCA's before they become accountants, IAB, AAT, etc. and they are just some of the qualified one's!

Its a sad fact but a lot of people will never make the money back out of this business that they spent in training to be part of it.

It's also a fact that there a good many who will.

The knack is just doing whatever you can to make sure that you end up in the right group!

kind regards,

Shaun.