The issue is that I think the client has just used me to get a better deal.
I gave him a quote and he accepted. He then signed the engagement letter and 64-8. Then he let me go in and collect his books. Once I'd sent the clearance letter to the accountant, I got a call from the client saying he'd changed his mind and that the old accountant wanted to come and collect the books.
I'm annoyed because I spent some time running around getting paperwork signed, I've done the MLR, sent the 64-8 off, set up on my system, and was literally about to start the job. I even went bakc and forwards copying ID as he didn't have access to a photocopier!
Rightly or wrongly I sent the client a small invoice (only £20) by way of compensation for my wasted time. That's why the accountant has sent the snotty letter saying I had no right to collect the books without clearance.
My enagagement letter states a month's notice period, which the client hasn't adhered to. I wouldn't do it, but surely I'm withing my rights to do the accounts and charge accordingly...
-- Edited by Jo Gordon on Monday 23rd of April 2012 12:12:59 PM
Do bookkeepers need to obtain professional clearance before taking over a client from an accountant? I would always send a clearance letter, but is it mandatory (probably not the right word but I can't think of another right now...)
I know for accountants to accountants it is done out of professional courtesy, but not sure about between bookkeepers and accountants...
I've just had a really snotty letter from an accountant, where I signed a client up and collected his books. The accountant is saying I should not have collected the books without obtaining clearance from him. I haven't actually started the work, only collected the books, but I just want to get this right in my head before replying to the accountant...
I generally do it, but it is a courtesy. I must say, it's a courtesy that many accountants I have written to don't care for. Most of the time I am still trying to chase up items I need from them months later. I've just written to one for details of allowance pools 4 months after they told me they'd email me "tomorrow".
If the accountant is getting arsey let him. You're not asking for permission from the accountant, just to check if there are any professional reasons not to take the client on. Right now I can't think of a single reason, maybe someone else can help?
Personally, I wouldn't even reply to the accountant.
I have to say I don't normally ask the accountant as it's down to the client if they wish to change the bookkeeper, after all you are not completing the clients accounts just doing the paperwork for the client to give to the accountant.
The only time there would be a problem that I could see would be if the accountant was doing the bookkeeping but then it is still up to the client.
If you are a member of a franchise should they not provide the templates for you?
However, I agree with Kris, you should as courtesy, but also just in case the client is moving around between accountants/bookkeepers to avoid due dilligence etc.
Just to put having sight of the books in perspective, sometimes a new client comes in off the street with his box of papers. One might very well have a glance to see that things seem to balance, and if this imaginary client were to accept your quote there and then, would you tell him to take his books away and bring them back after you'd got professional clearance?
The accountant is just having a go because he's been slighted by his customer. He might need his ego stroking a bit because his gripe about collecting books is splitting hairs somewhat.
To be honest, he's probably not worth the hassle of chasing. I'd just let him go, and the accountant. If the client it chasing low prices he's not the kind of client you'd want anyway I don't imagine.
One to chalk up to experience, but I'd be annoyed too.
Yes, I have templates. I agree I should out of courtesy, but is it mandatory?
Well, the answer to that one is sometimes.
Professional ettiquette letters adhere to the IFAC code of practice for professional accountants. Refer espechially to section 210 (professional appointment).
If your professional body has signed up to the IFAC code of ethics then it's compulsary but if they haven't it's not a set of guidlines enforcable in law (unlike accounting regulations) but is still good practice.
Not all accountants have the manners (or indeed knowledge) to acknowledge good practice but some of the better one's will appreciate your professional behaviour.
All members of the ACCA, ICAEW, IFA, CIMA, ICAS and ICAI are bound by the IFAC code of ethics so "should" be more appreciative of the effort that you have taken, although it's worth noting that not all people working as accountants in practices of the above bodies will actually be part of one of the above bodies.
That always seems wrong to me. If you go to a firm of chartered accountants you expect that accountant who deals with you to be chartered but that's very often not the case (and most of the time the client never realises it).
Seems a little like these Harley street clinics where because somewhere wears a white coat clients think that they are doctors! Nobody ever said that they were a doctor so no law has been broken but it still seems very wrong.
Welll, I managed to stay on peist for a little longer than normal!
kind regards,
Shaun.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Shaun's response is very good, there is also the "it's wise to check" aspect from a MLR point of view.
Shaun's off piste bit is interesting, it is a discussion the ICB is having regarding should all bookkeepers be Certified Bookkeepers before the practice can call itself that, or should just the principles be Certified Bookkeepers.
The point is if a client doesn't feel they can approach me, I'm 100% to blame, not them. They can take their money wherever they want without so much as a by-your-leave. I certainly wouldn't be upset with the client, but myself if I thought I had done wrong. People move all the time for a better deal, no point getting annoyed about it.
Have you never phoned your insurance company at renewal and played one off against the other? It's not shoddy, it's just life. Especially when big companies penalise loyalty.
I agree we shouldn't take part in a race to the bottom with price. I can understand why Jo is a bit annoyed, but the client played the game and won. Had the accountant stuck to his guns the client would be Jo's client now. It's the accountant who I think has done the wrong thing here, it'll come back to bite him/her on the bum.
Kris
-- Edited by kjmcculloch83 on Wednesday 25th of April 2012 03:22:23 PM
If everyone at a CA or book-keeping practice (or other professional services) was qualified and registered, then clients would have to pay FAR more for services, though. Also, how would anyone get professional qualification, given that there is (and should be!) a strong element of experience required?
So long as they are appropriately supervised and work is reviewed properly, with overall responsibility remaining with he Principles I think it's the only sensible option.
I imagine that the accountant is rightly cross with the client for without any notice or discussion apparantly taking on an alternative firm. I would suggest you should always send out a clearance letter - it's not to ask permission from previous accountant/book-keeper though, and nor is it to give them a heads-up that the client is looking elsewhere for services, it's to make sure you're not accepting a client who's Trouble!
Even if the accountant is cross with the client for moving he shouldn't be sending the new bookkeeper a shirty letter. Do you think Scottish and Southern Energy send British Gas nasty letters if a customer moves without telling them? Course they don't and neither should this accountant be. Clients come and go, the only way to stop them is by giving a great service. If you do that and they still move you need to understand that you cant please everyone, not get annoyed with the new provider.
Completely qgree, Kris! I wasn't intending to suggest that I thought the accountant was correct in sending a stroppy letter out to the OP. But understandbale to be cross with the CLIENT in not giving notice etc before taking on another professional services firm. Professional services are built on a relationship with trust on both sides. I would therefore be v miffed if a client of mine didn't feel able to tell me they were unhappy with service/cost/or whatever else made this client want to change.
I see it a slightly different way. If I had a client who didn't feel comfortable telling me they weren't happy with my service I think I'd be asking myself a few hard questions. My main aim is to provide a exceptional service 100% of the time, if I fall below that I'd want my clients to tell me so I could put it right. If they don't fell comfortable enough to do that and just move on that's down to me to create the relationship they can, not them. Their paying the money. In this case though the client was playing a game to get lower fees, had I been the accountant I'd have probably let them go. Once you start trying to compete on price you've lost the fight. I'd compete on every other part of the service, but not price.
Kris
Client isn't happy with the service in that he isn't happy with how much it's costing him! I wouldn't sit around saying "h'mm, where did I go wrong" in having a client who wanted the cheapest available rather than the best value available. I can understand your point, obviously expecting feedback on performance from clients is expecting too much, but expecting a discussion about fees would be normal, surely?
Assuming the client was playing games to reduce fees, I think that's utterly shoddy behaviour. I would expect a client to be direct and say "been with you x years, am v happy with service but need to watch my costs, how can we work together to reduce the fees?" or similar. Nowt wrong with that, and whilst I wouldn't aim to be the cheapest available I would always want to give the best value for money (not the same thing!).
To leave with the expectation that the accountant would accept him back at a reduced rate does show how little he values the services of accountants and book-keepers, and at the moment I don't need to accept clients like that. It constantly astounds (and annoys) me when you see jobs on freelancer web-sites with people looking for uk-based book-keeping & accountancy work for less than £10/hr....
If everyone at a CA or book-keeping practice (or other professional services) was qualified and registered, then clients would have to pay FAR more for services, though.
Hi Ann,
think that you misunderstand the level of person that I was talking about.
In any practice you expect for there to be trainee's, some AAT (or equivalent) qualified, etc.
But the people who own a chartered practice you would expect to actually be chartered. But sometimes that's not the case and QBE people with no qualifications can end up as partners or directors in chartered practices.
If one was just a member of the general public rather than someone like ourselves who notice when the letters after a name are missing then the assumption is that as one has gone to a chartered practice the senior accountants will in fact be chartered (or at least qualified).
Further down the food chain of course one would not expect everyone in the practice to be qualified as has you indicate, where would the new blood come from.
I think that with any relevant business, whether such is Accountancy or bookkeeping. If you profess to be qualified with a certain professional body then for your name to appear on the stationary you should be.
If your name isn't on the stationary then that's a different kettle of fish.
Well, that's my two penneth.
talk in a bit,
Shaun.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Fair enough to get quotes from competitors and re-negotiate fees (in fact, just good business practice to know what alternative key suppliers are offering). Also fair enough to walk away to a cheaper service provider with no discussion.
That's not what this client did. He walked away without any sort of notice. ...and... then came back, without any notice to the company he originaly left for! You wouldn't be able to do that to most larger businesses, as they wouldn't accept you breaking contracted terms. That's what I think is shoddy. Is absolutely different from calling up an insurance company and telling them "Company A quoted this much, can you match it" when your premium is up for renewal; in that case you're only negotiating and asking for quotes, and no question of not giving any notice.
Should the first accountant have stuck to his guns and refused to discuss fees? I think if he knew that his client had appointed someone else without giving him any notice than he made a mistake in accepting him back, but then I think Jo was lucky in avoiding this client, too. I think we all know that professional services are about relationships and communication as much as they are tax returns and double entry, and you can't be sure of giving good advice to someone who is -ahem - economical with the truth.
I agree, but this does not make the client wrong. The professional in this case has proved the clients point that to get a better deal you really need to leave. The same thing works with Sky. I get fed up, leave then they call me offering a great deal to come back. In this case the accountant allowed him to walk away and to return. I have to say that although my letter of engagement states that I require a months notice, if a client didn't provide this I wouldn't pursue it. Any action is likely to cost more than I would stand to gain. In this scenario the accountant has got into a mess of his own making.
We agree that Jo was lucky with this one, but unfortunate to have spent some time on it.
