Positioning for bookkeepers - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Positioning for bookkeepers

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Nup, I've watched it a few times, and that's not what it says. I quote:

"...you have 2 very different types of accountant to choose from. One option is to work with a traditional accountant.... On the other hand Crunchers are alternative accountants."

I read from this there are 2 types of accountants, traditional and Crunchers. Interested to know what others heard though.

As for Sage, I struggle to look the road they are on, let alone read their research, but I will seek it out.

Kris

-- Edited by kjmcculloch83 on Tuesday 24th of July 2012 07:27:15 PM

BobHarper · Guru

It is vital (in today's marketing place) to be different.

To bring out the difference you could think about producing a Positioning video. We've done one for Crunchers and there is a link below as an example.

I know Crunchers are Positioned as "Alternative Accountants" rather than bookkeepers. But, Positioning will still help you as a bookkeeper.

By the way, our reason for going into accountancy is because a) clients really want a one stop shop but more importantly b) accountants feel threatened by bookkeepers and want to be in control.

Our experience of working with accountants is that they just want the bookkeeper to do the data entry on a low hourly rate, leaving the professional fee budget and value advice for themselves.

Anyways, here's is the video:

http://theaccountingfranchise.co.uk/positioning/

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

First thirty second is a load of bollocks basically.

All qualified accountants know exactly how to help businesses of any size to succeed but the first thirty seconds of the video attempt to belittle the services that traditional accountants provide.

Your advertisment refers to accountants as sheep which is in direct violation of section 250 of the IFAC code of ethics for professional accountants.

Section 250 on marketing professional services clearly states :

One will NOT be disparaiging of the services of other practices

One will NOT make unfounded claims of the superiority of ones own services

Advertising will be honest, legal and in good taste

Crunchers are claiming superiority of service but also state that the the Crunchers network are qualified accountants so not alternate accountants, just accountants who either haven't read the ethical guide that they are bound by or who have had inappropriate advertising imposed upon them.

The advertisment may be claimed to be "a bit of fun" but it is attempting to subliminarily stereotype in the minds of viewers.

If you take on accountants Bob all you are doing is poking a sleeping giant with a stick.

Bahh...

Sweetpea · Veteran Member

BobHarper wrote:

Our experience of working with accountants is that they just want the bookkeeper to do the data entry on a low hourly rate, leaving the professional fee budget and value advice for themselves.

I have to disagree with you Bob, I am working with an excellent accountant who is happy to let me do as much as I am comfortable with. The more I get involved the more he appreciates it. He sees me as a good bookkeeper who makes his life easier.

I agree with Shaun, you should not be insulting the services of other practices disbelief

Laura

BobHarper · Guru

@Shamus - how specifically do all qualified accountants know exactly how to help businesses of any size to succeed? When are accountants trained on marketing and sales?

@Laura - two questions (if you don't mind) 1) what if your charge out rate? 2) Is the accountant comfortable with you advising the client on things like a) financial systems (for example switching them to Xero) b) preparing/hosting management accounts meetings and c) developing budgets with the client i.e. just leaving the accountants to complete year-end accounts and tax?

BobHarper · Guru

@Shaumus - I looked up a couple of these and found F2 Management Accounting, F5 Performance Management and F9 Financial Management - I am thinking about how to get to the top of Google and what to say when someone says I can get it cheaper down the road.

If traditional accountants are so good how come the failure rate of businesses is so high?

Sweetpea · Veteran Member

BobHarper wrote:

@Laura - two questions (if you don't mind) 1) what if your charge out rate? 2) Is the accountant comfortable with you advising the client on things like a) financial systems (for example switching them to Xero) b) preparing/hosting management accounts meetings and c) developing budgets with the client i.e. just leaving the accountants to complete year-end accounts and tax?

Bob I think you misunderstand what I said. It is not fair to say that the accountants "just want the bookkeeper to do the data entry on a low hourly rate, leaving the professional fee budget and value advice for themselves".

I just don't think is fair to "attack" the accountantants the way you did.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Bob,

the full list is :

F2 Management Accounting
F5 Performance Management
F9 Financial Management
P1 Governance, Risk and Ethics
P3 Business Analysis
P4 Advanced Financial Management
P5 Advanced Performance Management

The purpose of those is to ensure that one can properly advise clients on the management and direction of their business. All of those papers are forwards rather than backwards looking.

Marketing one's own services rather than the services of clients is almost entirely CPD although the general principles will have been indoctrinated during one's studies.

And on that matter, accountancy is not about being backwards looking, that is primarily just for financial reporting and tax purposes.

People who don't understand accountancy (I'm not implying there that you dont) think that all that accountants do is tax returns. That's like saying that all solicitors do is conveyancing.

As for failure rates for accountantancy practices, there are a lot of different variables involved. Also, do you include firms merging as a failure or recognise that this happens for positioning in order to comply with the rules of IFAC and the professional bodies aimed at preventing undue dependance on larger clients?

Franchises may be seen as the safer option but if I opened a copy of the Franchise directory from 15 years ago how many of those do you think are still in existance today! It seems that for every Molly Maid there are ten Athena's.

Its the same in any business. There are successes and failures but in accountancy not all disappearing practices are failures.

BobHarper · Guru

@Laura - I think our experiences with accountants are very different but you didn't elaborate on your experience.

Shamus - first, let me say that there are some excellent accountants out there and there is value in content of the papers you refer to. But, 80% plus of a traditional firms energy/time is spent on last years accounts. The truth is the truth hurts.

I wasn't talking about accountancy failure rates but their clients! If accountants where so good their clients would be more successful.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

BobHarper wrote:
If accountants where so good their clients would be more successful.

so if jockeys were better their horses would always win.... There is a serious flaw to that arguement.

Are you saying that a Crunchers accountant is a better accountant than others in which case I refer you back again to IFAC S.250.

businesses that come to Crunchers are just as likely to fail as those who go to any other accountant but I would hope less likely to fail in both cases than those who go to no accountant.

At the end of day accountants are only as good as their experience, their qualifications and their client base.

As such an ACCA qualified accountant working under the Crunchers umbrella should have the same professionalism as an ACCA qualified accountant working on their own.

The difference is that under Crunchers they have a franchise support network, not that they are better at what they do.

If that had been the emphasis of the video I would have had no complaints but the whole first thirty seconds of the video likening other accountants not associated to crunchers as sheep needs to be chopped.

As for 80% plus of our time being spent on historical data... Yes, that's called legal complaince for clients and is our primary concern.

Crunchers franchisee's will also need to be spending a considerable amount of their time on legal complaince work... Or is that work outsourced in which case that is not a matter that your accountants do not spend time on historic work but rather they free up their own time by sub contracting the bread and butter work.

BobHarper · Guru

@Shamus - I am saying Crunchers are different.

Yes, we will do everything we can do to eliminate work and reduce costs by using technology and outsourcing which includes using Xero and look at services like Receipt Bank.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

So, just to get this clear, Crunchers are still offering all of the historic work and what is really being said is that you have more time to offer additional services because the actual bread and butter work is offloaded to a third party.

There is absolutely nothing different about a crunchers accountant to any other accountant with the same qualifications.

So, the statement about the difference between Crunchers accountants and other practices is a complete fabrication in that any competent accountant can do anything that a crunchers accountant does it's just that yours have more time because the people who are dealing with ones accounts are not the same people that one deals with on a day in day out basis.

Marketing one's services espeichally in relation to professional services does not give one the right to distort reality and fabricate facts.

Generally I regard our debates with mild ammusement but in this case I really think that you need to have those first thirty seconds removed Bob as I personally take this marketing ploy of referring to accountants as sheep as an insult and I won't be the only accounts professional to think that.

BobHarper · Guru

@Shamus - yes, Crunchers will do the historic work but it's not so much about the time savings from technology/outsourcing but the value of our knowledge and processes.

The first 30-seconds is not designed to insult anyone but to get business owners to think.

I actually value our debates because you got me thinking.

One of the things we will be doing is helping clients discover what really drives their success because profit is just a consequence. We will also be doing this ourselves so perhaps one metric I need to focus on is the number/quality of creative/practical ideas we pass to a client per annum.

If we are challenged we can then be specific about our claims.

Wella · Expert

Mum Shaun said Bllcks

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Hi Bob,

I've just watched the video. The quality is very good. I do agree with what Shaun has said so far though. What you say is that there are two types of accountant. The traditional backwards looking ones, and Crunchers, but that's not strictly true, is it?

Even ignoring all the accountancy ethics rules that Shaun has spoken about, I'd be looking out for ASA knocking the door.

Good graphics, good quality, questionable content.

Kris

BobHarper · Guru

@Kris - actually, the message is there are two types of accountants - Traditional Accountants who spend the majority of their time looking backwards and and Alternative Accountants with Crunchers being an example.

The objective of the video (from a marketing perspective) is to create a new category of accountant in the mind of the market and to give clients a choice.

By the way, the video is supported by extensive research by Sage. Have you read their ABC and Pulse surveys?

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Ok, briefly read the Pulse survey and it doesn't seem ground breaking. Clients want more than number crunching from accountants. I can't believe they had to commission a report to tell them that.

Kris

BobHarper · Guru

@Kris - Alternative Accountants - the new Website will elaborate on that.

As regards the Sage results, they didn't surprise me either but it does support our messages in the video.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

yeah, but it doesn't say there are traditional and alternative accountants of which crunchers are one. It says there are traditional and crunchers are alternative accountants. To me, and this is only my opinion, I take from the video if you don't like the boring accountants crunchers are your alternative.

This may just be me, and I'll await what others are saying.

Kris

BobHarper · Guru

@Kris - OK, if that's your take but the point of the post is that (for marketing) being different is more important that being better.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

I agree that you need to be different, Bob. But imagine for a second that Pepsi release a new advert saying that consumers have 2 choices. They can have water or Pepsi alternative drink. Do you think this is an acceptable form of advertising, it sets them out as different but is not really the whole story. Kris

BobHarper · Guru

@Kris - I am not sure I understand what you are getting at. The idea of Positioning is that you play off the competition; you advertise in context.

Here is an example I use with clients:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YF40ECLmRQ

As regards our claim of finding what works and sharing knowledge, while we have been discussing this I have continued my research and listed 25 tactics to improve employee satisfaction which has been proved to improve profits. The beauty of living today is that all the answers are out there, you just need the time to find them.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Ive watched the clover advert and saw nothing there that derided the competition. It gave alternatives and put it's own position which was the middle ground.

The Crunchers ad likens acountants to sheep... In what universe has that method of advertising been considered acceptable since the 1950's.

If I were to produce a video showing peoples accounts being shipped to India / pakistan / phillipines (delete as appropriate) compared to an Accountant dilligently helping and working with the client on their final accounts and tax returns and advertise that "there is a better way for your business" then Crunchers would be up in arms.

If I showed a client loooking at a report with their accountant compared to looking at a screen with a message saying "connection unavailable" Crunchers would be up in arms about it.

If I showed images of Franchisee's as identical drones being produced on a production line... Well, I guess Crunchers would be up in arms about it.

But. when the boot is on the other foot Crunchers believe that there is no problem with belittleing the accounting profession with inappropriate and misleading images of what accountants in the 21st century are actually like.

I am not saying that the scenario's that I portrayed above are correct the same as the Crunchers portrayal of accountants is not correct.

I would not tell on you to the ASA as I'm not that sort of person and I don'tbelieve that Kris is either... But some accountant who see's that video will complain as those first thirty seconds are neither fair nor truthful.

All in all, this reply really boils down to the fact that putting a lie in a video does not turn it into a truth.

Shaun.

p.s. I do agree with Kris that the graphics and sound on the video are excellent (but deserved better content).

p.s.2 I read the Sage Pulse report and it's right up there with a committee that after much dilligent deliberation decides that the sky is blue... The report is just common sense that any muppet already knows. I assume it's like one of those reports that one sometimes gets in banking where a manager has been kept out of harms way by giving them a report to write that nobody really needs to read but makes them feel useful until you can think of a reason to fire them.... Or promote them into another division.

BobHarper · Guru

@Shaun - I thought the use of images relating to the alternative to Clover were very powerful. Watch it again from the perspective of being a competitor.

Outsourcing - I am happy to have a debate about the financial benefits, ethics and morality.

Connection unavailable - I don't get your point?

Drones - not sure about other franchises but at Crunchers each franchisee is encouraged to specialise and be themselves but we like the idea of developing stuff that works.

I appreciate you don't like the images but I am not lying. From the client's perspective accountants do:

Have a reputation for being all the same
Are a little staid
Speak gobbledygook
Spend most of their time working on last years accounts
Rarely come up with practical or imaginative business ideas
Prefer working with larger business where they can charge more

Some of this I know because I speak to business owners. Some of this I know this because I have spoken to hundreds of firms personally and had a telemarketing team call thousands of accountants for me.

BobHarper · Guru

@Ruth - thanks for raising your head and commenting.

@Peasie - we developed our own offline bookkeeping system so I know it's horses for courses and if a business needed guarantee 24-7 to their bookkeeping then perhaps an online system would not be the best. But, like you say, you have a problem with Talk Talk not the Internet or online systems.

-- Edited by BobHarper on Wednesday 25th of July 2012 09:26:06 AM

Peasie · Expert

BobHarper wrote:
Connection unavailable - I don't get your point?

Well my broadband connection was down for about five hours tonight. I think it was a major TalkTalk problem. Maybe that's what he was getting at. But hey-ho - at least my Sage was still working.

RuthA · Senior Member

My experience is that lots of accountants are exactly as Bob describes and that lots of business owners perceive them as such. I've lost count of how many clients we have taken on specifically because they were so annoyed with their accountant never returning their messages, failing to offer them any sort of help or support and charging them a small fortune for just preparing the end of year accounts but doing nothing to add value to their business.

I didn't interpret the video as saying that Crunchers are the only accountants who aren't like this, to it me it was more 'there are sheep and there are alternatives, we're alternatives'.

I think there is quite a big market out there for exactly what Crunhchers are offering (I would say that as it's pretty much exactly how we have positioned our company, too). Again my experience is that historically affordable quality financial support for small and micro businesses has not been available as it isn't the target market of many traditional accountants, but it can be done (and be done profitably) so there is definitely a market.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Peasie,

Yes, I was referring to internet access.

In the past year I've lost virgin once for two days. The issue on that one was tracked back to something to do with a package jam whatever that is? Apparently they have to ping multiple (50+) messages from their end which unblocks the line... Which bless their little cotton socks it did.

I've had a BT issue where one of my phone lines was down for best part of a week. On that one I am lucky as I have three lines plus a mobile but if I were not so well prepared.

And the icing on the cake was that I burned out my Zoom Router in the middle of the night when nowhere was open in order to replace it (now got a Netgear router and a spare).

Now imagine how much I would have lost if I were totally dependant upon internet based software.

My comments above were not suggesting that Bobs business was guilty of any / all of those things but rather how would he feels if someone used those stereotypical examples of peoples perceptions of franchise book-keeping businesses in an advertising campaign.

There is probably no more truth to them than depicting accountants as sheep but the intention was to show how the situation would feel reversed.

The issue really comes down to a sales tactic that works on the basis that people are generally reasonable and when one makes a statement, even where one disagree's with it reasonable people will try to find commonality. This will often be in the form of a follow up statement that people can identify with which creates subsequent agreement giving an element of credence to the original statement.

Unless I am seriously offened by something I, like others will try to accomodate the other persons views.... But I still don't buy their products.

In this instance nothing that has been said moves the conversation away from a fundamental error of judgement in attacking the accounting profession by subliminal imagary intended to undermine the profession and reinforce peoples misconceptions of the accounting industry for personal gain by Crunchers.

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Ruth,

There are bad accountants, bad franchises and bad bookkeepers.... But there is also a lot of good in each profession.

My business had one bad chartered practice that was really not interested in us and made one horrendous mistake followed by two excellent chartered practices (Fired the first, second sold her practice to number three who I am still with).

I also know a lot of chartered certified accountants the majority of whome genuinely care about the companies that they work with no matter what size those companies are. However, time and again I get the feedback from them that clients never appreciate what you do for them and just complain about the fee's no matter how reasonable they are for the hours put in (which of course clients don't see).

The sad fact is that clients don't really want to pay for anything. They know that they have to produce final accounts and tax returns so that is all that they budget for. If Crunchers are able to produce final accounts and look after a clients tax matters and still have time for other advice within the budget that a client is willing to pay then good luck to them.

My issue is not with Crunchers, or any franchise book-keepering or accounting business. it's with the fact that crunchers felt it necessary to subliminarily belittle other practices in order to create a platform to differentiate themselves.

If any qualified accountant (including AAT) working with Crunchers had produced that video which is in serious breach of S.150 (and related supervisy body implementations of s.150 which are often more stringent) they would have been fined by their supervisory body (I think that the current fines start at £800) and faced possible expulsion or at least suspension.

The fact that they are removed from the production of the video should I believe save them all as whilst they are crunchers franchisee's they will have had no control over the video.

I assume that Bob is not with an IFAC member body so he will not be bound by the code of ethics that those working with him are.... That does seem like a real flaw in the rules right up there with senior accountants in chartered practices not necessarily being qualified at all (so long as 51% of the firm ownership is chartered).

But I digress. I have no issue with the second part of the video as we all need to differentiate our businesses and as I said before I think that this is done very professionally in this video.

Shaun.

BobHarper · Guru

@Shaun - your issue seems to be with the images, is that right?

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Yes.

ilsm · Senior Member

I haven't looked at the ad yet, so I'll confine my comments to what Shaun said earler:

Your advertisment refers to accountants as sheep which is in direct violation of section 250 of the IFAC code of ethics for professional accountants.

Section 250 on marketing professional services clearly states :

One will NOT be disparaiging of the services of other practices

One will NOT make unfounded claims of the superiority of ones own services

Advertising will be honest, legal and in good taste

As I read those provisions, I cannot see a prohibition on disparaging the services of "professionals" or "accountants" but only on practices ... and I take that to be identifiable practices. I don't really think you can undermine a whole class of people such as accountants, or the quality of the work that class of people does, just by categorising them in unflattering terms that are nevertheless generally recognisable.

I also think "alternative" does not mean "superior" but even if it does, aren't we all unique? Doesn't that mean we can say we are different ... alternative, even?

Iain

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Really not a good idea to bring this one back to the fore as I had allowed it to die, but, if you want to kick a hornets nest.... (I know that a fair few of our regulars have been waited with baited breath for the next instalment).

Ifac code of practice section 250 refers to marketing professional services.

The IFAC code as a whole states that one will adhere to the IFAC code and other regulatory guidlines where such are more stringent so add to that the rules of the ACCA / ICAEW / etc.

The quote is pretty much indoctrinated into every professional accountant whilst they learn their professional ethics which basically dictates that one will not make unfounded claims of the superiority of one's own services or be disparaging of other practices.

The guidlines are also based on the profession as a whole rather than individual practices or members.

Watch the ad and tell me that traditional accountants are not being likened to sheep.

got to go out for a bit but look forwards to continuing this later.

Shaun.

-- Edited by Shamus on Sunday 7th of July 2019 04:00:27 PM

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

The very first half of your first sentence said it all for me. I haven't bothered to watch the video, but I still want to stir up such a controversial topic anyway. Enough said!

Rhianrach · Expert

Well I thought I would watch the video and I liked it.

It does however tend to put all other accountants in a bad light, making unsubstantiated claims of inept-ability.

It also comes very close to making yet more unsubstantiated claims of your ability to make businesses grow, something that you can't claim to definitely be able to do if a business was to become your client.

And yes you do liken accountants to sheep biggrin

Other than that it seems likely you will draw people in with it. I have to say though you are only offering what our accountants do already so I don't see how you are alternative.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Iain,

ok, I'm back with a bit more time now.

here's the relevant paragraphs taken directly from the ACCA adoption of IFAC section 250 :

250.2 A professional accountant in public practice shall not bring the profession into disrepute when marketing professional services. The professional accountant in
public practice shall be honest and truthful and not:

(a) Make exaggerated claims for services offered, qualifications possessed, or experience gained; or

(b) Make disparaging references or unsubstantiated comparisons to the work of another.

250.2A Advertisements and promotional material prepared or produced by a professional accountant shall not (either in content or presentation):
(a) bring ACCA into disrepute or bring discredit to the professional accountant, firm or the accountancy profession;

(b) discredit the services offered by others whether by claiming superiority for the professional accountants own services or otherwise;

(c) be misleading, either directly or by implication;

(d) fall short of any local regulatory or legislative requirements, such as the requirements of the United Kingdom Advertising Standards Authoritys Code of Advertising and Sales Promotion, notably as to legality, decency, clarity, honesty and truthfulness.

For access to the full version see here :

http://rulebook.accaglobal.com/banner.html

Notice that the use of the word ACCA is not always used but refers to ALL professional accountants no matter what banner they offer their services under.

Each body has a slightly different wording in their adaptation of the IFAC code but all agree to the same underlying principles.

Sure that you can see now why accountants will take such offence at the video where professionals would not dream to portray other professionals in such a manner.

All in all everyone in this business is supposed to adhere to the same high ethical standard. We can argue amongst ourselves but we do not slate each other to clients. The video, predominantly the first 30 seconds, goes against that principle and attacks the profession which is unacceptable behaviour from anyone who wants to work within this business.

That said, this thread was burried, admittedly in a very shallow grave... I don't know your reasoning behind digging it up but if you are in any way connected with Crunchers I don't think that Bob will thank you for your efforts.

Shaun.

BobHarper · Guru

@Shaun - I have no problem with this thread being commented on, I found all the comments interesting.

@Steve - how do you know what we are and not offering?

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

BobHarper wrote:
@Steve - how do you know what we are and not offering?

Surely that says more about your advert than anything bob? If Steve can watch the video and still not understand what you are offering it doesn't bode well for prospective clients or franchisees. Kris

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

BobHarper wrote:
@Shaun - I have no problem with this thread being commented on, I found all the comments interesting.

So you understand now why those first thirty seconds are fundamentally against the ethical standards that all qualified accountants must adhere to.

The repositioning of Crunchers to being accountants rather than bookkeepers surely means that it is producing advertisments that it's franchisee's must distance themselves from if they intend to retain their qualifications and avoid substantial fines from their supervisory bodies.

If you don't believe me though just get one of your qualified franchisee's to phone the ACCA (or CIMA/CGMA, or ICAEW, or ICAS, or ICAI, or IFA, or AIA) and see what their reaction to the ad is.

Not sure about the AAT? They should adhere to the principles of the code but are still likely to be more flexible and less restrictive over the adoption of the code in relation to advertising which I suppose is one of the reasons why bodies further up the food chain still tend to rather unfairly consider AAT only as an introductory qualification rather than an end in itself.

The issue as I see it for crunchers is what if you sell a franchise to an ACCA affiliate? (passed all the exams but needs to be supervised for accounts work as doesn't have two years post qualification experience). Do they then need to give up their qualification (or risk having it taken from them and fined for the privelage) in order to be a franchisee represented by this advertisment?

These are cunundrums that would never have happened had a qualified accountant been involved in the production of the advertisment... And if a qualified accountant was involved they should have known that this was wrong and said something to save Crunchers from making what to my mind is an expensive (but very well made) mistake.

Hope that came accross more constructive than some of my earlier posts which initially were born of shock at the advertisment.

Shaun.

BobHarper · Guru

@Kris - the video is a Positioning video...it does not explain in detail what or how we do it but from what I know we are very different to traditional accountants.

@Shaun - thanks.