Website advice - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

RE: Website advice

Don Tax · Expert

That's a model in a fictitious website. Nobody would put themselves up there, prancing about and grinning inanely at I don't know what.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

You think that the sites bad Tim. You should see the youtube video.

I cringed all of the way through it.

Cringed even more when I realised that it's paid for with the £1000 small business training grant.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Oh, you spotted it too Vince.

I was adverse to putting the spammed link in as the thread was not about the person or the site but rtather the style of their site.

However, I suppose if one opens the floodgates they have to be prepared for what comes through.

Yes, I read the spam blog and that's what led me to the video.

I wouldn't even pay £1000 (even if it is taxpayers money rather than one's own) to go and see a good marketing guru speak (I'm thinking the likes of Bob Etherington, Tom Hopkins, Stephan Schiffman and the like).

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

My strategy is to provide services to sole traders. I know from experience that they want a good value service and thats what I offer. I'm not the cheapest, not the most expensive but I can relate to my clients. Thats enough for me. The site you suggested is not a basic design, it's a poor design. Content must come before design. You can have a lovely site saying nothing and it wont be a success. Equally you can have a poor design, but if you have the content it will still work. So what is most important?

-- Edited by kjmcculloch83 on Tuesday 9th of October 2012 10:26:48 AM

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

That site doesn't display properly on my iPad.

I agree with you Shaun, just dealing with clients who are not cost conscious doesn't work. And before you say it does Bob, if it really worked you would have a team busy signing them up day and night and you would be sunning yourself on a beach somewhere 12 months of the year not on this forum telling us that our approach is wrong constantly.

I'm glad we finally agree that not everyone should aspire to share your segment.

Kris

-- Edited by kjmcculloch83 on Tuesday 9th of October 2012 12:42:18 PM

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

I think you may ~~hit~~ exceed your target.

I'm getting more and more annoyed at you taking my words and making them say what you want them to say rather than what I actually said Bob. I never mentioned value conscious clients once. In fact all of my clients are very value conscious, which is why they use my services, and none of them are fools. The fact you think cash and value are interchangeable terms say's more about you than I.

Kris

-- Edited by kjmcculloch83 on Tuesday 9th of October 2012 02:48:45 PM

BobHarper · Guru

@Amanda what do you think about http://www.hubspot.com/?

I wonder if you disagree with the design (having big photos on the homepage) or the photos themselves?

@Vince unbelievable.

@Shaun well done for not lowering yourself.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Oh dear Bob, I think the wheels have come off

BobHarper · Guru

@Kris - I'm interested, what's purpose/objective of your last comment?

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

I didn't think i'd need to explain obscure one line comments to you bob. I mean you put this site on a pedistal and I think the consensus is now that the design is rubbish, the content is poor and the person behind the site leaves a lot to be desired.

Amanda · Expert

@Bob, The hub website is good, I see what you mean about the pictures, but to be honest I think its totally irrelevant to the OP as she is a Mum who wants a part-time business, shes not a multi million pound company that needs help with marketing.

If you are a very large company then thats fine, but for the majority of us on here, it would be skimmed over and onto the next website!

BobHarper · Guru

@Kris - the content and person behind the site is irrelevant to the design.

I find some of the comments here extremely small minded and childish. Your last one seems to suggest you are more interested in having a dig at me rather than helping the OP.

Getting back to the point of design, I am surprised none of you see the value in the design. I still think it works for a one-person business because the proposition in the person and it makes the first contact personal. At the end of the day people buy from people and if someone was so shallow not to contact me because they didn't like my photo then I'd be more than happy not to do business with them.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

You surprise me Bob. If you look back I think you'll find we've all helped the OP in clear english pointing out specifics and how to get them sorted, except maybe yourself. Again you resort to airy-fairy language that when you dig down into it says nothing. The OP's main questions were about content. Content is king. Design alone doesn't get you "Google Juice".

I would suggest that many bookkeeper don't want the flashiest sites money can buy. Those of us targeting sole traders, builders etc. They would see an expensive site and assume that is what you are. Expensive. There is a lot to be said for a good basic design, with loads of great content.

Spamkebab · Expert

I have just deleted a post similar to yours Kris, coming from the point of a small business owner. Flashy is great but does scream expensive.

I think i fall into the category of Plumbers, Electricians and any other cowboys. I would like to see a site that is free from accountancy speak, yet helps explain what is on offer.

No dig at you Bob, but like i said, they scream expensive. Them big sites are probably nice for people who enjoy talking about how to save money while earning 70 quid an hour sat in on a 2 hour boardroom meeting twice a week.

That's how i see them, anyway.

Sometimes less is more.

BobHarper · Guru

@Kris - you started off on the right track but you'll need to be specific when you accuse me of using airy-fairy language.

The OP asked about design and content. I focussed on design because I believe the content will not get a chance if it is not well presented.

The site I suggested is basic design, it is just done by a professional.

@Spam & Kris - is your strategy to be cheap?

BobHarper · Guru

@Kris - first impressions count, there is no excuse/need fro amateur design. And, it is not content or design...both are required.

I find it interesting that many accountants/bookkeepers boarder on being phobic of many areas of sales and marketing; design is one. It is almost as if they feel they shouldn't need to invest in design because they have letters after their name.

Spamkebab · Expert

Bob, i was looking at the sites you provided as coming from a small business perspective. This forum is for Bookkeepers and so their target audience wouldn't be the likes of the CO-OP, i think their audience would much rather see a more open, honest and homely (if you like) site.

We are dealing, for the most part, with the Lay-man.

As for my strategy being cheap, i am yet to find out. I can tell you however, that the business that i am in now would not benefit from a website. A mere one liner pointing to an address is more than enough advertising.

I cannot comment on whether those big sites are well presented and compiled as i don't understand what they are selling and so find them not-very-interesting. That's just because they aren't relevant to me, although what they are selling looks expensive, too expensive for a sole trader to buy into.

Show me a gaming site and i'll tell you whether it captures the imagination lol.

VinceH · Expert

BobHarper wrote:
The site I suggested is basic design, it is just done by a professional.

pro·fes·sion·al

n.

1. A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.

2. One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.

3. A skilled practitioner; an expert.

So that would be definition 2, then: One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation - because given the technical issues I pointed out*, it certainly can't be definition 3: A skilled practitioner; an expert.

* And I only had a fairly quick look. I probably only scratched the surface, and I expect there were many more.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

But also one need to be very, very careful over what one writes on one's site Bob as the rules around advertising one's services are very strict.

I've mentioned to you before about the line that one must not be disparaging of other firms services or make unfounded claims (including implied claims) of the superiority of one's own services. That is at odds with the ego driven sites such as form the basis of this discussion rather than the OP's original question.

It's not phobic. It's just obeying the rules that financial professionals sign up for with their supervisory bodies.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

You're right Bob. First impressions do count. You have seconds to capture a visitor befor they move on to the next site. But these impressions must be the right ones. That means you need to design to your target market. that doesn't mean expensive design. Lingcars is one that springs to mind. As far as you can get from the design you suggested (although I would suggest ling is perhaps more successful) but her site is designed for her target market and works.

You should be happy that you are not residing in the same sector as the rest of us, that means you should need to try less hard to get clients than the rest of us. We're all happy where we are, why do we need to aim big?

BobHarper · Guru

@Kris - where did I say anything about needing to be big?

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

You read what you want there. Did I say be big?

BobHarper · Guru

@Kris - have a look at your last sentence "We're all happy where we are, why do we need to aim big?"

My comments are nothing to do with being big, they are all about being profitable which is really about working with the right clients.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

So how is designing a site to put you at odds with your target market going to make you more profitable? To design a site similar to the one you suggested would make most of us less profitable. If you think its a good site, you need to think again is what has been said.

Don Tax · Expert

Shamus wrote:
You think that the sites bad Tim. You should see the youtube video.

I cringed all of the way through it.

Cringed even more when I realised that it's paid for with the £1000 small business training grant.

Had to watch. Only consolation is it's cheaper than Bethlehem Hospital. First impressions count eh.

BobHarper · Guru

@Kris - I think we are getting somewhere now, this is really about the type of market segment being targeted.

The only way to know is to test, however, the research (any my experience) shows working with cost conscious clients is not the best strategy. So, even if the site off some prospects it would still work and be effective design.

Just because there is a market working with disorganised, low profit clients who are very cost conscious doesn't mean the OP needs to work with them.

Here's another example of a face on the front of a site in the bookkeeping world http://www.bookkeepingandbeyond.co.nz/

Spamkebab · Expert

Now that's more like it Bob, a bit of totty, Crumpet!

lol.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

lol, I want to find some business owners who are not cost conscious... Of course, I would need to be looking for a different client the following year as I don't imagine that those one's last very long.

By definition as well wouldn't the disorganised one's be the ones who are not cost conscious?

I think that maybe the world North of where you live / work is somewhat different Bob as my experience is that even the largest clients are very conscious of the value of every penny spent.

... Oh god, I mentioned value...

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

True, but if the op or anyone else choses to work with these, whats wrong with that? If everyone was chasing the same clients we would all make less profit. Cost concious clients can still be good for a lifestyle business. For a lot of products I am cost consious, but that doesn't make my money any less important than someone who can, or is willing to spend, spend, spend. I can often get more value for my pound than they can. This all comes back to how we each see value.

The phrase that springs to mind while typing this is "a fool and his money are soon parted" well believe it or not there are just not enough fools to go round so some of us need to target the typical hard working builder who wants the biggest bang for his buck.

Kris

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Agreed Neil. That one was a much better site.

Still get the same woman on every page though.

Also nice to see that a Xero shop offers Quickbooks as one of it's services.

Even better seeing the shoe boxes welcome sign.

Now why didn't you lead with that one as your example Bob.

BobHarper · Guru

@Kris - value conscious clients are not fools. But, if that is your attitude towards them then you are probably best not in that segment.

Spamkebab · Expert

Yep the shoebox is a nice touch and the Quickbooks mention. It's a winner Bob.

Now get that Melanie to do a youtube video..............................

VinceH · Expert

kjmcculloch83 wrote:
That site doesn't display properly on my iPad.

Here, it doesn't display properly in all of Firefox, Internet Explorer, Safari (washes hands), Opera, Chrome or NetSurf.

In the case of NetSurf it's the JavaScript issue again.

In the case of Firefox it's a rendering issue, preventing the user from seeing what's to the right if the browser window isn't wide enough.

In the case of the others, it's an inability to scroll right at all if the browser window isn't wide enough.

That's only attempting to open the home page in each of the browsers. I haven't looked any further.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

I thought that was just my messed up left hand monitor Vince! Thanks for clarifying as the poor monitor was just unjustifiably promised an impending end of days in a skip.

Better quickly appologise or she won't start in the morning... God, the thought of having only one monitor... How does anyone work like that!

Spamkebab · Expert

I just picked up a 28 inch monitor so i can lay 2 A4 sheets comfortably side by side in portrait, only trouble is, i now have to sit on the other side of the room to read owt as it gives me a headache lol.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Neil,

At Scottish Widows they installed huge HP screens to replace the multi monitor setups... It was like spending the day in a tanning salon! (and you know that us accountant types must never be exposed to daylight or anything resembling it)

I've normally got 2 * 22.5 inch screens in the office apart from the one has had to go back to the home office for a while so my left hand screen at the moment is the old 18.5 inch one from the emergency backup desk until I can get myself a new Iiyama (best screens bar none).

BobHarper · Guru

@Vince - great work.

@Kris - I never said winning value concious clients was easy.

As regards me:

1. My strategy is to work with partners (accountants and bookkeepers) and get them successful.

2. If you don't want to hear other people's thoughts why do you read my comments?

3. As for laying on a beech, I am not a sun lover otherwise I wouldn't be in Cornwall.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

BobHarper wrote:
@Kris - value conscious clients are not fools. But, if that is your attitude towards them then you are probably best not in that segment.

I don't think that there is anything amiss with the value for money offered by the likes of Kris.

You seem to be slipping between cost conscious and value conscious. To me they have always been one and the same but up until now you seem to have been trying to differentiate between the two Bob.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

BobHarper wrote:

1. My strategy is to work with partners (accountants and bookkeepers) and get them successful.
Maybe not a great idea to alienate them then

2. If you don't want to hear other people's thoughts why do you read my comments?
Morbid Curiosity

3. As for laying on a beech, I am not a sun lover otherwise I wouldn't be in Cornwall.
lol. has to be hotter and dryer than anywhere else in the country though.

BobHarper · Guru

@Shaun - I am happy to alienate because Crunchers is like Marmite, love us or hate us. I am planning for high 90% to hate us.

I was referring to Kris referring value conscious clients and fools. It shows a lack of understanding and respect.

BobHarper · Guru

@Kris - there are 32,000 or so firms in the UK, we'd be happy with 50 but we are hoping to find 200 but have a maximum of 300 so we are prepared to go over 99%.

The issue here right now is you using derogatory terms such as fools when discussing market segments with me.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Again Bob, you make sure you don't let the truth get in the way of a good post. Someday you'll quote me accurately.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

BobHarper wrote:
@Phil - I agree WordPress is the way to go, that should put Kris off.

Is it just me, or is this turning into primary 3? All i said is I didn't get into WordPress, why would you want to put me off? This is getting slightly ridiculous.

I thought it was worth stating why I don't really like wordpress. It's more open to hacking than a custom built website, it requires constant patching to keep it secure, will most users be able to do this? Plugins can be great and work well but can conflict badly with each other. Although there are good SEO plugins you get more control with a custome built site. These are just rom personal experience with WordPress. Other CMS add in to custom built site giving more flexibility of the base coding.

-- Edited by kjmcculloch83 on Tuesday 9th of October 2012 10:46:40 PM

BobHarper · Guru

Kris - I'll use speech marks for you.

You start by talking about cost concious clients by saying "Cost concious clients can still be good for a lifestyle business". Then you move on and say "there are just not enough fools to go round so some of us need to target the typical hard working builder who wants the biggest bang for his buck". The implication is clear that what I am talking about (value conscious) are fools.

I really don't see what your problem is. They are your words, not mine. If you don't like them being picked up don't use them.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Yeah, you conveniently miss out the part where I say the phase that springs to mind is "a fool and his money are soon parted". However, having said that, I do think anyone who isn't cash conscious is foolish. I'm sure even you as a tax technician understands the importance of cashflow. If people are not being cash conscious what would you call it?

I do think you are being a bit of a prima donna now though, and we're way off topic.

BobHarper · Guru

@Kris - design should flow from the marketing strategy so I am not surprised we are talking about market segmentation.

Being a Prima Donna would be asking for an apology. I just won't stand for you accusing me of lying by saying " make sure you don't let the truth get in the way" and I'be made sure you quote you this time so you understand why I am saying what I say.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Sorry Bob, didn't understand any of that sentence.

BobHarper · Guru

@Kris - there are three sentences, which one?

Spamkebab · Expert

Ahem!