Website advice - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

RE: Website advice

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

BobHarper wrote:
and I'be made sure you quote you this time so you understand why I am saying what I say.

Just this bit

BobHarper · Guru

@Kris - I quoted you so that you realise/understand that you basically accused me of lying.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Ah right, when you put the sentence that way I understand it better.

Spamkebab · Expert

Lyndsey · Senior Member

Wow go out for a day and come back to over 50 emails with updates on this thread!

Firstly, not meaning to get involved in any arguement but, Bob I think you missunderstood the comment about the "fool", I understood that he was saying that there are not enough "fools" out there with money to burn to make us all millionaires, so many of us are having to go the the less profitable cost concious clients...

Ok, back to my marketing strategy...

To start my main market aim are local business/self employed within my local market town. The town I live in is quite a "local" place with a lot of small independant businesses, I think the only chain business we have is a Boots and a Co-op. We have managed to stave off the advances of the mighty Tescos for years. However, that said, it is very much a working class town, with very traditional values (if you want a feel for it google the "straw bear festival"). And the local businesses like to deal with local businesses... Not those strange city dwellers smile

My other half runs a small independant car bodyshop (which I help with business side), so we have a lot of local contact with car dealers/mechanics/business with company vans etc. A number of who when I was studying mention that they were having problems with their accountants, and to let them know when I was up and running.

Next point of call is our local magazine, which I already have a deal with advertisement (through other halfs business - everyone wants a few scratches/dents getting out of their car!). This magazine has a circulation of over 6500 households, its free delivered to houses, which everyone I know reads and uses for local business ie trademen etc.

Local comeptition - there are two based in my town http://www.davisbusinessservicesuk.com/ and Calm Accounting (which I see their website is down today http://calmaccounting.co.uk/) both ACCA accountants. If I spread into Peterborough there are quite a few more.

My aim for the next year or two is to get enough work to fill up to 15 hours a week, as I will still have a lot of work with my little girl. And carry on studying to become fully qualified accountant.

I think someone mentioned somewhere that many of the local businesses I am aiming for will look at a website like that crazy lady's (sorry cant remember her name!) will look at it an think that this service is not what they want and way out of their price range. I'm trying to work to a simple down to earth design, which will not alienate the typical "working class" man

BobHarper · Guru

@Lyndsey - my understanding of Kris' comment is the same as yours.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

So why the issue?

HendyPhilhendy · Guru

Getting back in topic!

I think the edits mentioned are necessary and suited for your current marketing plan.

However, one thing I do tend to agree with is getting the right people in for the job. For around £3-500 you can get a content managed WordPress/ Joomla site built. You would pay £30-50 per annum hosting fees. This will give you the ability to amend the content and Adjust as you wish. You will also get the right SEO plugins already in it.

This should certainly be something to think about if you are expanding in the future.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Do you use wordpress Phil? I have never managed to get into it. I did try Concrete5 recently which I really like.

Kris

BobHarper · Guru

@Kris - you talk about your clients/segment and then refer to others outside your segment as fools. I just said it showed and lack of understanding/respect and suggest you stick to cost based fixed pricing.

@Phil - I agree WordPress is the way to go, that should put Kris off.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

That isn't what Kris said and that wasn't what Lyndsey said her understanding was.

Kris simply passed freindly comment with Phil about personal preference. A bit like site comments about 12pay and moneysoft payroll. Its just personal preference without any adverse opinion towards the other.

HendyPhilhendy · Guru

Hi Kris,

I will ignore the sniping comments from elsewhere.

My site is built on WordPress by a developer. I like the platform and it performs really well from an SEO point of view. It does need a bit of a revamp though. The main point is that it is custom coded, not a template site.

however, as you mentioned it does come down to personal choice. I mentioned Joomla in my post as well but didn't comment too much as I am not experienced with that. There are other platforms around and I think we were agreeing that getting it coded is important. (Despite what Bob thinks!)

Hal · Veteran Member

Really good info in this thread re websites - great pointers for someone thinking about it for a new practice and what to look for when testing the site.

As for the "discussion" well.... maybe it kept the thread running to get all that information referred to above.

Hal FFA FFTA

HendyPhilhendy · Guru

Shamus wrote:
That isn't what Kris said and that wasn't what Lyndsey said her understanding was.

Kris simply passed freindly comment with Phil about personal preference. A bit like site comments about 12pay and moneysoft payroll. Its just personal preference without any adverse opinion towards the other.

agreed

BobHarper · Guru

@Phil - I agree, getting referrals/recommendations from a peer group to a professional is a good idea but that wasn't what was being done, which is why I questioned it.

There is difference between a designer asking other designers for a recommendation to a good accountant and asking other designs if they can claim for suit they have bought for client meetings or if they should set up a Ltd Co.

-- Edited by BobHarper on Wednesday 10th of October 2012 12:29:41 PM

BobHarper · Guru

@Kris - I accept we all have our own personal likes/dislikes but it's not about what bookkeepers/accountants like because they are not the OPs market - this is another reason not to ask them!

Good designers know what works. They know how to communicate a business strategy/ideas using images, colour and typography. I have dealt with designers who have set-up their own business without professional advice and they always cost themselves money. I think the OP is making the same mistake.

-- Edited by BobHarper on Wednesday 10th of October 2012 01:12:19 PM

BobHarper · Guru

@Phil - the sniping has been going on for a while.

This thread started with Kris responding to a comment I made where I questioned the value of asking bookkeeping/accountants about design. I think that is a fair point, consider it the other way around where designers are advising each other about tax planning!

There was actually no need for Kris to respond to me but he did with:

"Typical really. I won't tell you what's wrong, but I'll slate everyone else who does".

The way I read this is just a nasty little snipe to a genuine comment intended to help the OP.

I get the impression that Kris has appointed himself as some sort of forum members protector/champion.

Is he?

Spamkebab · Expert

I think we all have our own voice Bob.

Reading from your replies and the way you ignore most posters apart from Kris i would say you are not being a great deal of help, i have just read this thread from the beginning once again and i can't see any value in your input.

I joined this forum so i could seek advice from the higher ups in the hope that some day soon i will be able to pass on this advice to new members/students.

I am not in the habit of taking sides like some sort of school yard game, and to be honest, your usual arguments with Kris offer the reader a view from different perspectives.

But this is getting boring, you seem to be spending more time copy and pasting or quoting than actually helping.

Can we please get back to "the whole point of the forum"

Neil.

BobHarper · Guru

@Neil - I agree, it is boring.

The value in my contribution (if you choose to see it) is that unlike everyone else here I think a) the Website design should be changed (before nit picking technical issues and content) b) it should feature the OP front and centre because she is the main proposition (with professional photography as per my examples) and c) be designed professionally.

The discussion extended into target markets and again I offered value in the form of a new perspective of not designing the market the OP will get recommendations for but to target a more profitable/value conscious segment. As a rule of thumb, sole-traders will be making less than £30,000 or they should be a Ltd Co for tax savings so their budget is very limited.

We'll see how Kris response and if there are no digs that would be great.

Amanda · Expert

Well said Neil, I think this thread needs abit of closure. Hopefully its helped Lyndsey with her website, which is what she wanted in the first place. Hopefully she has taken on board comments regarding marketing and how to make her website suit her needs, after all we all have different needs when it comes to your businesses, however big or small we may chose to be.

VinceH · Expert

BobHarper wrote:
I think a) the Website design should be changed (before nit picking technical issues and content)

And the belief that design comes first is why the web is full of rubbish websites, where the real content with any significant value is hidden behind flashy design and pointless gimmicks.

Such as the first example you gave, where there is almost no actual content (and what little there is has no significant value from what I saw, but that's beside the point).

I don't necessarily disagree with the idea that the site could "feature the OP front and centre", but note that I didn't quote your "should" and instead used "could". The site could feature her front and centre, but more discretely would be better - done in a way that doesn't immediately shout "LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME!" the way that Hudson-River site does. If it's going to be on every page, perhaps something a little over passport sized, otherwise a larger one (but still not the size of Hudson-River's) would be perfectly well placed on an 'about' page - and that's if the OP is comfortable having her photograph online; not everyone is.

Because the OP is NOT the main proposition - her abilities and skillset are, which unsurprisingly enough, lead to the services she is offering. If you're looking for a bookkeeper, zookeeper, zoologist, theoretical physicist or whatever, while it might be nice to know what they look like, what you actually NEED to know is what they can do, and whether they can do that for you.

BobHarper · Guru

@Vince - there is a difference between what I am saying "design first" and what I think you are referring to of "design over content".

The sites I gave as examples did not have flashy design or gimmicks but I agree content is vital and needs to have value.

By the way, my take is that when someone is looking for a bookkeeper (and they find one) they expect them to be able to do bookkeeping. If they want proof they can go deeper into the site and read accreditations, testimonials and case studies. But, at the initial point of contact they are looking for someone they can trust, people buy from people.

Spamkebab · Expert

Just let it be Bobby.

"We'll see how Kris response and if there are no digs that would be great."

This is what i'm talking about, your post was fine up until this point. Let it lie.

I do think you have summed up the perfect Bookkeepers website with your last description though.

Neil.

HendyPhilhendy · Guru

BobHarper wrote:

This thread started with Kris responding to a comment I made where I questioned the value of asking bookkeeping/accountants about design. I think that is a fair point, consider it the other way around where designers are advising each other about tax planning!

In response to this query then - I have no issue with someone asking their peers about anything. Surely it is and should be the first place you would go i.e. how did you get your site right, who built it, does it get clients etc. It would be pointless going to the first designer you come across and take on board their recommendations. Much better to get a consensus of opinions from within your peer group and a referral to someone who is very good.

Your point about a designer advising tax planning is a mute one really. Again designers would talk to each other first and ask what their accountant/ tax adviser did to help them. The person wanting the help would go to that recommended person.

Word of mouth recommendation is without doubt the most powerful marketing tool in your armoury - use it both ways!

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

I think there's a fundamentl difference, this being that every one knows what they like and don't, we all know what looks good and doesn't and this is different from person to person. Design and content is very subjective, accounts are not (or shouldn't be).

BobHarper · Guru

@Lyndsey - when thinking about a strategy/segments/services (especially for a new bookkeeping business) I'd strongly recommend research and looking at developments within the industry.

If anyone is basing their business on providing bookkeeping for sole traders then they should be aware of http://www.receipt-bank.com/the_plans/individual. My understanding is that a sole-trader can send paperwork in a free post envelope and get this turned into useful data for about £10 a month.

This and legislation changing so self-employed people don't need accounts tell me this is not a good market to target. Make hay while the sun shines but get ready for tomorrow because it will be here before we know it.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Of course, I suspect that the main reasoning behind the relaxation of necessity relating to accounts is more down to some Whitehall mandarin doing his sums in relation to the additional revenue to be reaped from additional interest, penalties and surcharges for small businesses not having proper representation.

Personally I've only got one self employed business. The others are limited so it wouldn't make a lot of difference to my current business

And for the site discussion in relation to receipt bank see this thread :

http://www.book-keepers.org.uk/t50932041/fixed-feeooops/?page=1&sort=oldestFirst

Unfortunately, another thread that became a battlefield.

Personal viewpoint as to looking at future direction is generally to look at America as changes that happen their tend to filter over here (RTI being a good example). At the moment I'm not seeing any root and branch change to the bookkeeping industry over there as my view is that small business owners are more concerned with stability and traditional values than constant improvement.

Shaun.

VinceH · Expert

BobHarper wrote:
@Vince - there is a difference between what I am saying "design first" and what I think you are referring to of "design over content".

To some extent, yes, I have been reading what you've said as design over content - but even design first doesn't sit right to me.

Although I mostly don't bother providing web design as a service, there was a time (when the web was still just a kid) that I did. And the way I work was always to get the client to provide copy first; even if it's just a single document full of text - I'd split it apart and decide what needed to go on different pages, and then design the initial site around that.

Once the additional design is done, if the client wanted more pages, they'd supply the necessary copy - but at this stage the design is already done; so for those pages the design was first, but for the site as a whole, the copy - ie the content - came first.

One reason for that approach is that I never used any software other than a text editor, a locally run web server and an FTP client (and some browsers for testing, obviously). Taking this approach, starting with the content in a text editor is natural: You then add the markup around it - though there's more to it than that. (See below).

These days, I still prefer to do it that way (both for my own sites, and the fleetingly rare occassions I put together a site for anyone else), but with one additional tool: my own software, WebChange.

Of course, if you're using a CMS system such as Joomla or WordPress (and I do use the latter for three sites, because it's more practical for them), then arguably design does technically come first, because such systems do have a default design, even if it's fairly bland - but the beauty of them is that you can ignore the design and just drop your content in, and then change the design, either by working on it yourself, or by changing the template - which you can also do however far down the line you decide you're bored with the old look and want something new. These systems don't force you to think about either design or content first; they - rightly - separate design and content. (Which a well designed hand-crafted site should do as well.)

If someone came to me and asked me to put together a site using a CMS, I'd still ask for content before carrying on with the design.

The reason extends from the ease with which markup can be placed around content (mentioned above); sometimes, the content dictates the design - if you come up with a design before you have the content, you can easily discover that the content just doesn't work in that design.

You shouldn't ever fall into that trap if you start with content.

The sites I gave as examples did not have flashy design or gimmicks but I agree content is vital and needs to have value.

I'd say the Hudson-River one very much did: the rolling (using Javascript) image of her was very much flashy and gimmicky - and totally over the top and unnecessary. She could have had something like that on her site, but in a less obtrusive way; the image slightly smaller, particularly not as wide, with the text that was part of it above or below her. That image then could have gone to the left or right, with the rest of the space given over to the content, instead of forcing it so far down the page.

By the way, my take is that when someone is looking for a bookkeeper (and they find one) they expect them to be able to do bookkeeping. If they want proof they can go deeper into the site and read accreditations, testimonials and case studies. But, at the initial point of contact they are looking for someone they can trust, people buy from people.

This I don't disagree with - and that's why a photo is a nice idea; but as I said, something more discrete, and less in your face.

Lyndsey · Senior Member

kjmcculloch83 wrote:
As others have said your site is taking an average of 4.68 seconds to load.

Just wondering what you are using to time the webpage load. I've tried a number of online testers and have got results spanning from 3 seconds to 60...

Thanks

Lyndsey

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

There are loads of testers out there. I used pingdom tools.

Lyndsey · Senior Member

Hi, I am sorry if I am dragging up an old post which caused a bit of debate, however, I decided to go back and completely redesign my site (and I've also done my SA exam in the mean time) . Its not up on the main page yet but its under the subdirectory again http://www.westendbookkeeping.co.uk/joomla/

I would be interested in what you think

I've not completely finished all pages, there are some articles I need to work on formatting and some I need to upload a blurb

Oh yes and Bob I will be shortly adding a photo onto my "About me" page biggrin just need to find some time to get dolled up & have a pic done.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Ok, not really read the text, so I'll leave that for someone else. Just a few design points. Firstly, I don't think the mix between the serif ans sanserif fonts work on the page. I'd pick one and stick with it. Why is the menu text a different point size from the rest of the page?

I don't think the images work on the grey background because of the white outline. Maybe worth making these transparent. Same with the logo.

What does the tiny date add to the page? If the answer is nothing, why have it?

Just a few quick points from a short visit.

Kris

Lyndsey · Senior Member

Hi thanks for the feedback, the logo background was on my to do list, but I couldn't work out how. I have just realised it was v simple! just wasn't looking in the right place! I'm learning as I go along!

I've made the txt on the menus bigger & removed the date (it was in the template)

BobHarper · Guru

@Amanda - no problem, we all have our own opinions.

What do you all think of the design, look and feel of this site

http://www.tax-sorted.biz/

Bob

Amanda · Expert

Hi Bob,

THats a better website, the colours are bold and good. I haven't got time to read all of it now as just off out, but will have a read later.

chiragaegis · Newbie

If your site very slow than use of static site is simple and and fast your site.