Xero + you + me = win - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

MalcolmSackman · Newbie

Xero + you + me = win

Don Tax · Expert

MalcolmSackman wrote:
.............
There is a great opportunity for bookkeepers to win clients ad work with an accountant around Xero. We can do joint marketing and you do the bookkeeping, VAT returns and perhaps the management accounts. I can support you and come in after the management accounts have been completed with tax/business reviews.
It could be that clients do their own invoicing and between us we do the rest.
What do you think?
If you are interested then my Sackmans are Accountants North London but I can work with bookkeepers all over the UK.
Feel free to give me a call.
Malcolm

Your Sackmans are accountants...... ?*$#! Looks like they're keeping the best PR work for themselves.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

I'm going to take issue with some of your benefits. Not to say they are not true, but they don't show the full picture as some apply equally to desktop software.

1 - I'll give you
2 - This is true for one or two clients, as soon as you get to 3 there are cheaper options like VT Transaction+ and QuickBooks.
3 - QuickBooks ProAdvisor can be paid monthly, and you own the software at the end
4 - See 3
5 - Not sure what you mean, but if it's selling on the package QB does this too.
6 - with a bit of work most desktop software can auto backup too.
7 - Business Continuity - seriously? I think I have better continuity with something I have absolute control of.
8 - Sustainablilty? How? Can't cloud providers dissappear? At least If Intuit go I still have the software.
9 - Most desktop packages have this too. Many will check for updates when started up.
10 - I'll give you this too.
11 - Desktops do this too.

Kris

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

When Intuit were speaking about their cloud offering they stated that the clients purchase the product with the bookkeeper / accountant also having access to that product inclusive of the price that the client pays.

Forgetting the likes of Sage (my practice has) and going with traditional software where you can process as many clients as you need is not the issue here that if you have (say) 40 clients that is 40 cloud licenses that you need whereas with the traditional software you could handle that many under a single license or is Xero different to that?

I feel that from what I have learned so far about cloud offerings it is a case that whilst they may reduce costs for the accountant such is merely moving the cost elsewhere and clients expect reduced fees to compensate for their additional costs for taking on the software themselves.

To me the main issue with the cloud is still the idea that we have no control over access to it.

The case always quoted as a warning about depending upon such medium was the intuit outage of 2010. I know now that they have made huge improvements including mirror sites but it still remains a real fear that where one controls their desktops and can put their own emergency procedures in place, one cannot control the net or access to it (I assume that was one of the five that you mention).

I think that you may need to expand each of those points for the audience as some of them seem just random words (sustainability? Sustain what?).

As with all lists it is not the quantity but rather quality of points in the list.

Also using the same point several times does not make it several points (lower costs, less money tied up (lower cost), Monthly payments (less money tied up)).

I also think that you meant scalability rather than saleability but please correct that assumption if I am wrong.

kind regards,

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Morning Kris,

I'm sure that we'll have Malcolm buying QB or VT by the end of the day. lol.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Yip, I may be innovative but even I'm not ready to abandon my desktop accounts software, payroll is slightly different.

Kris

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Yes, Payroll worries me a little at the moment with RTI looming.

I always read Tims updates with great interest (Tim, you've been promoted to RTI guru) and the Government stance very much reminding me of the guy who threw himself off a skyscraper and was heard to comment as he went past each floor "so far so good".

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Actually, change my above line from QB or VT to QB and VT... No iXBRL filing in QB... Bah humbug

Don Tax · Expert

Hahahaa, love the anecdote Shaun and cheers for the promotion. Think Kris's solution is going to be part of my remedy so I'll have to get used to clients entering their own hours and pressing the send button. I may tailor a solution if I carry on with payroll by always printing a disclaimer on the summary.

Typical of my concerns is with micro-micro-micro businesses who pay out the same wage every week. Contrary to Lord Freud's example, RTI is not just "pressing a button" for these folk. It's clearing the dinner table on a Sunday, getting the PC out of the cupboard, attaching the printer, settling dispute over who scrapes the pudding bowl, loading up the payroll program, printing out 1 payslip, send the RTI, get it wrong, send again (repeat x 52 x life of business).

Alternatively, there will be more costs with employing a clerk or the accountants. When I read £1 per payslip, or thereabouts, I have severe doubts about whether the responsibility has been sufficiently thought through.

kind regards,
Tim

AliG · Veteran Member

And she sneaks up behind the crowd discussing Accounting Software, pops her head up over the shoulder of a little grey man and says...
"Kashflow"....
Then runs away very quickly biggrin

If truth be told, I have serious issues with both Xero and Kashflow... but then I plainly just have issues smile

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

I've actually dropped offering Payroll at the moment as you are completely right, the compensation to risk ratio of the old system is being blown out of the water by RTI.

To take on the additional risk I would be looking for substantially more money which I know that clients will be unwilling to pay.

As such I think that this will actually result in a move to the American system of bookkeepers subcontracting their payroll work to specialist bureau's.

There's a good American book "How to open your own in home bookkeeping business" by Juile Mucha-aydlott

It was one of those free kindle downloads that one comes across (gone up in price now) and made a surprisingly interesting read and a good insight into the bookkeepers role over the other side of the pond.

Plenty of tips in it for building loyal customer bases and mistakes made along the way (its not a bookkeeping manual but rather a here's what I did, what went right and what went wrong sort of book).

The positive spin put on the US equivalent of RTI is that one builds close relationships with payroll bureau's which in turn works as a great source of new clients in both directions.

There you go, I just managed to put a positive spin on RTI.

Just realised this thread has turned into the reason why original posters should not post and then leave as the original intent of the thread seems to have just been dropped for more rounded unbiased discussion.

you've got to love the way that this site works.

talk in a bit,

Shaun.

RuthA · Senior Member

I've used several cloud systems but really don't like them, mainly because they are all so much slower to use than Quickbooks. Even with super fast broadband it takes a bit longer to go from one screen to another and not being able to have numerous windows open at once - instead having to keep reopening - drives me potty.

But I don't think I've ever seen anyone else complain about this....what do other people on here think?

-- Edited by RuthA on Friday 5th of October 2012 06:09:28 PM

VinceH · Expert

I agree, Ruth. I've yet to see a c***d based system that allows me to enter data as rapidly as I can on Sage.

(Edited to remove the bad language)

-- Edited by VinceH on Friday 5th of October 2012 06:12:50 PM

Spamkebab · Expert

Did you just admit to owning a Kindle?

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

I hope there are a load round my way doing the same as you are Shaun. Maybe I'll go and pickup all their clients.

Kris

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Nope. Go wash your mouth out Neal. Me as part of the anti paper brigade!!!

I own quite a few PCs and have kindle as a freebie bit of software on them.

Sometimes Amazon gives books away on kindle and it would be rude to say no.

I'm still yet to pay for a book on the kindle reader as if I read the book and think that it's good I generally buy the traditional one that you can put on a shelf... That's probably defeating Amazons objectives there.

Kindle is a great example of why not to entrust the internet with anything that you cannot afford to lose. Of all the books for it to be done with, George Orwell's 1984 was revoked from peoples kindles and their money refunded to their accounts. If you had bought a paperback it is yours forever but to own something online such ownership can apparently simply be revoked.

As I say, what a book to pick to do that with!

Don Tax · Expert

Brilliant, amazon. Big Sister Is Watching You.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Do you mean that you are starting a payroll bureau Kris or that you expect to pick up clients in their entirety from book-keepers not offering Payroll services?

Didn't you look at outsourcing your payroll for a while? What decisions did you reach on that one?

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

I did outsource to Terri, but when I took on a new employee who had a background in payroll it seemed to make sense to bring it back in house and push the service a bit more. The other bonus is that I moved to MyPAYE which helped streamline things a bit, and means we're not tied to one person, for example Alison is at a funeral today so I can run the payroll remotely.

I have a few clients I do just payroll for, but most it's in addition to other services.

Kris

MalcolmSackman · Newbie

Without addressing each point all I would say is that cloud computing is much wider than just accounting. Some of the benefits apply best to non-accounting applications.

I'm not looking to have a debate out this and understand Cloud is new so this is only for early adopters. All I am looking to do is connect with bookkeepers who are opened minded.

Thanks

Malcolm

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

I would suggest your reply is very condesending. Being open minded doesn't mean you'll leap into something just because it's a new concept, especially when the list of benefits you propose don't add up. i would suggst this is a sure way to become the proud owner of a pig in a poke.

Kris

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

I think that the above were open minded and legitimate responses.

the cloud isn't new, the debates have been going on on the site since before I joined in Jan 2010.

The whole idea surely has to be with a forum that if you make a statement you need to justify it.

This really isn't the sort of site that would take a statement unquestioned. But it also a site that is full of people who listen and adapt and take new products on board (word of moth on the site I am sure helps 12pay and VT no end).

That said, the people here are quite worldly wise. The sort of hype that comes with most cloud offerings has been seen by many of us so many times before that you need to discuss statements rather than simply make them assuming an accepting audience who do not question facts and motives.

Yes, the cloud is much wider than accounting. Its not worked out for Microsoft the way that they thought that it would though... I mean, which of us here uses the pay per click cloud based virtual office suites which was to be the new way!

That's a very specific example and going the other way idea's such as Dropbox have really worked.

Without discussion the thread is simply an advertisement that has gone horribly wrong for Xero which to my mind is unfair on Xero as I personally have nothing against the product, only the way that it is being put across that those who don't move to the cloud will wither and die.

people will make their own minds up based on facts and rational discussion which I hope that you will take the time on the site to elaborate on all of the points which people took the time to respond to your initial floored post.

Over the coming years businesses will change but I think more towards the integration of cloud and desktop applications such as Intuit seem to be working towards. I'm still not convinced by the current Intuit business model but I am fully behind the joined up thinking of where they are trying to go with their cloud and desktop service offerings progressing hand in hand.

kind regards,

Shaun.

Spamkebab · Expert

Made me chuckle, did that, Timbo.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Word of Moth. lol... I killed her because the Moth told me too... Sorry, meant word of mouth in my post.

VinceH · Expert

There appears to be a lot of bad language in this thread. People keep mentioning the dreaded 'C' word... Cloud.

Don Tax · Expert

lol Neil. Btw, I've just written one of those postings that never quite get sent. Must do better with RTI next year.

Ok, the last bit of it was ........... There's at least one similar mistake on their website.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

lol Vince.

I think that those pushing the C word as the only way forwards never expected the strength of opposition that they have encountered.

I think much of the opposition is rooted in the way that change is being pushed using frighteners rather than sold to the audience. I'm sure that such sends shivers down the spines of the real marketing experts out there as the principle has to be that people will only sign up to an idea if they believe that they have come to the conclusion themselves.

I was very impressed with the Intuit approach of ok, the cloud is right for some, not for others. We've got both. Take either, take both, take neither, up to you.

The key was that the audience was slipping what was being told to them in their minds into their own business models which would work for their practices. The fact that it was not being pushed that you will go down this path brought the audience on board with the idea rather than alienating them.

With myself, if someone tells me that I have to change I'm less a stick in the mud and more a tank trap.... I get the impression that I'm not alone in such stance on this site :)

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

I'm a bit like yourself, Shaun. I don't mind changing the way I work if I can see a benefit for my business, but I refuse to jump on any passing bandwagon just because it's there. I think in this instance the OP decided that a list of words would be enough to have us running to him, and in this case he got it very wrong. I'm not so much a stick in the mud, but need to be convinced that it's right for me.

For me, the ideal is some kind of hybrid of cloud and desktop accounting software, but no one has really embraced this yet.

Kris

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

That's where I think that Intuit are heading as the impression that I got was integration of the cloud version and accountant version of the desktop (not sure about the other versions and you would also need to get this confirmed).

During the meeting you could see people signing up to the idea that some clients would be online, others off but the integration within the firm should be transparent.

I don't think that Intuit are quite there yet especially when you have things like flat rate works in the cloud version but not the desktop but my feeling was that at least they are heading in the right direction and listening to the audience rather than telling the audience what they are supposed to think.

There may still be time to catch the Edinburgh one if you can manage it. I certainly thought that it was an excellent use of a morning and you know how cynical I can be!

Mmm, wonder if the poster realised that a Xero thread was going to end up pushing QB. lol

Don Tax · Expert

justify + substantiate + facts + grammar - pig - poke = win + me + over

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

or even

interest = facts + benefits / consultant speak

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

No, there was still a bad word at the end of the sentence Vince lol.

VinceH · Expert

LOL!

Although, to be fair, I think Sage is only a bad word when referring to the company, rather than the software.

Dalbir · Senior Member

RE: Arithmo + you + me = now you win

pDm · Senior Member

RE: Xero + you + me = win

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

pDm wrote:
It's a bit like the difference between owning a CD and downloading the song,
or owning a well stuffed bookshelf over a single kindle.

Apart from :

(1) you own the CD / book. You own the right to use the music / reading material if downloaded unless such right is revoked. (see 1984 case above).

(2) When you buy a book / cd in virtual form. You do not pay every month in order to keep it.

The real driver is that with the cloud more people need to pay monthly in order to keep access.

With the desktop bookkeeping software can be ten years old and work perfectly.

Accounting software is different but an accountant will ideally want to have one peice of software from which they are able to access all clients data.

I would actually see the cloud more through Intuits glasses in that it has it's place as does the desktop sollution and the real challenge is bringing those together.

On the whole cloud thing, try visiting farms / businesses in parts of wales / lincolnshire / peak district / Scotland and tell me a virtual office is better than a laptop with the software on it.

On the big boys like to own everything I worked with one of the big consultancy firms who would have even rented the A4 pads and pens if they could (won't say who but they are big and American and not an accountancy consultancy firm). They were the ultimate in virtual presence yet gave the impression of complete stability because people just assume that they own everything.

The banks like to own their real estate portfolios as long term investments but you would be surprised at how much equipment is on operating lease.

And train operators, next time that you are on a train take a look at the little door plaques saying who the train is rented from.

In fact, thinking of that as a great analogy, the big boys own the software but rent the machines that the software sits on which is actually the complete opposit of the cloud.

Shaun.

pDm · Senior Member

Shamus wrote:
pDm wrote:
It's a bit like the difference between owning a CD and downloading the song,
or owning a well stuffed bookshelf over a single kindle.
Apart from :
(1) you own the CD / book. You own the right to use the music / reading material if downloaded unless such right is revoked. (see 1984 case above).
(2) When you buy a book / cd in virtual form. You do not pay every month in order to keep it.
My point was one of convenience, not cost. CD's and Bookshelves are bulky compared to digital alternatives which are more easily portable. Likewise, owning software that is in a fixed geographical location can be inconvenient at times.
...
On the whole cloud thing, try visiting farms / businesses in parts of wales / lincolnshire / peak district / Scotland and tell me a virtual office is better than a laptop with the software on it.
Yes, as I said "give or take a 3G signal". But one day those remote farm and villages will be connected just as well as everybody else... we'll see what happens then.
...
On the big boys like to own everything I worked with one of the big consultancy firms who would have even rented the A4 pads and pens if they could (won't say who but they are big and American and not an accountancy consultancy firm). They were the ultimate in virtual presence yet gave the impression of complete stability because people just assume that they own everything...
I didn't know that, my bad - but doesn't it prove my point if larger companies actually prefer to rent/lease everything over ownership? They must have the right idea; they are big companies after all. They just haven't got round to the cloud, yet.

;0)