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Hello!

Im thinking about doing a sage course. I have absolutley no experience in this field but am looking for a career change (well looking for a career really), my dad suggested to me that this would be a good path to go down. The courses can be quite pricey and i dont want to waste any money. Just wondering if they are truely worth doing and if it will help me develop a career in this area?

Thanks

Charl



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my view echoed by many on here and also the ICB and IAB is that Sage alone is a mistake and one should not look at learning the software until one understands what the software should be doing.

Passing the Sage qualifications may get you some work but such is only likely to be sales and purchase ledger stuff which is often minimum wage work... Nothing quite like paying out a fortune in training to find that you are actually paid less than someone stacking shelves in Tesco!

Before jumping to the Sage qualifications take a look at the ICB qualification. The qualification has ease of access. It won't help you get a permanent job but it will teach you the basics. Level II includes computerised accounting for which you would learn Sage or an equivalent such as Quickbooks or VT. Eventually you will probably learn all of those and several more.

You would stand more chance of employment (although in these very trying times such is not guaranteed) with the AAT qualification.

For distance training providers consider these and look at the courses they offer :

Training Link
Premier Training
Ideal Schools
Eagle Education

Don't consider price as a reflection of quality of training as there are some very reasonably priced courses that are as good and sometimes better than more expensive alternatives.

One final thing, how old are you and what qualifications do you have?

I ask as you may be able to get yourself on an AAT apprenticeship. You won't be paid a lot but then you won't have training costs to self fund.

just a thought there,

good luck and hope too talk soon,

kind regards,

Shaun.

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Shamus wrote:

my view echoed by many on here and also the ICB and IAB is that Sage alone is a mistake and one should not look at learning the software until one understands what the software should be doing.


It would appear that the IAB has gone down the easy route and have accredited a short Sage course with a tutor marked assignment that leads to their membership.

So they have gone in the opposite direction to the ICB (and many on here) that sees software as a support tool which is best harnessed by a professional. 



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Anna

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Hi,

before the IAB vs ICB debate starts again, it is my understanding (and i may be wrong as i havent looked into it in great detail) the IAB accredited Sage qualification is a seperate qualification accredited by Sage, that purely states that someone is competant with Sage.

I dont think it leads to membership, (if it does, it shouldnt) but i think that it is just an extra qualification which specialises in Sage and no more. To join the IAB you still need to do the same exams as you did previously.

I am sure Frauke, will clarify things in due course.



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Hi Nick,

I was like yourself trying to avoid a post of a newcomer descending into another bckering match but thinking about it the original poster deserves to have the facts.

Until Frauke appears to give the full story this is cut and pasted from the IAB website showing that associate membership of the IAB is far from a short Sage course which is how James' post read but I'm sure was not as he intended.

To beome an IAB member one must pass :

L2 Certificate in Bookkeeping QCF

L2 Award in Manual Bookkeeping QCF

L2 Certificate in Applied Bookkeeping QCF

L2 Award in Computerised Bookkeeping QCF

L2 Certificate in Payroll QCF

L2 Award in Practical Payroll QCF

L2 Award in Computerised Payroll QCF

L2 Award in Applied Payroll QCF

L3 Certificate in Payroll QCF

L3 Award in Computerised Payroll QCF

L2 Certificate in Computerised Accounting for Business QCF

L3 Award in Costing and Pricing QCF


To move that up to MIAB you also need to add :

L3 Certificate in Bookkeeping QCF

L3 Certificate in Manual Bookkeeping QCF

L3 Certificate in Applied Bookkeeping QCF

L3 Award in Computerised Bookkeeping QCF

L3 Certificate in Computerised Accounting for Business QCF

And to escalate to FIAB you can just do the Sage course but that needs to be accompanied by an equivalent qualification from another body and two years verifiable practical experience.

kind regards,

Shaun.

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Shaun

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Hi James,

the ICB is no better or worse than the IAB.

Each has it's merits and it's failings.

Neither is likely to see the poster into employment without experience to back up the qualifications.

I didn't want to get into a debate about such here but rather simply let the poster know their options for them to explore further themselves before asking about specifics.

kind regards,

Shaun.


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Hi Shuan,

Think you missed the heading on the top of the page:

"To apply for this grade of membership you must hold, as a minimum, one of the following IAB qualifications or equivalent qualifications from other awarding or professional bodies:"



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Hi James,

i see what you are getting at in that you only have to sit computerised OR manual, rather than both like the ICB (which i agree) with.

But the short, TMA marked, Sage course is not listed under the requirements, this is a seperate qualification which is accredited by Sage.

The computerised bookkeeping exam, as far as i am aware, is still a lengthy exam, sat under exam conditions in a centre, and not an easy way into membership. 

The lack of a manual element to become a member is a different arguement however.

Nick



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Sorry I appear to have highjacked the thread, sorry Charl <slaps wrist> smile

However, it is tutor marked, no examination required. IAB do say the college should be prepared to hand over 20% of coursework for moderation though.

And then you are straight into membership.

By the way this is more of a personal thing from me, I don't think the ICB have an official stance on this course, but they chose not to go down this route when it was offered.



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Hi James,

I stand corrected, you are right and to be honest i dont agree with it.  Whilst there is 20% moderation, some centres are more generous than others.  Some centres never had students that failed an AAT skills test, as the students were practically given the answers and so the moderation never picked up any students that handed in work that was substandard but never picked up students who did not meet the requirement.

I know this will probably be getting this completely off thread, but all qualifications that are worth anything should be assessed by an exam in exam conditions.

Nick



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Nick Craggs FMAAT ACA  AAT Distance Learning Manager

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Surely people should know that ICB are NOT accredited by any institution namely Ofqual, who regulates qualifications, examinations and assessments in England and vocational qualifications in Northern Ireland
http://www.ofqual.gov.uk/

This is a strict regime, IAB have worked very hard to pass the strict guidelines and having the accreditation, they MUST continue to do so in order to keep the OFQUAL standards.
IAB cross check their exams and training centres, also tutors MUST adhere to strict controls. IAB course materials have been written by professionals in the industry. I know this because I tutor the courses and they are very comprehensive.
IAB are very professional and treat their members with respect. I am proud to be an MIAB of which I have worked extremely hard to gain, and be a tutor representing such a great organisation.
Having taken the ICB exam in the past I am able to give a comparison, so commercially I have nothing to gain from my comments.


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Hi Laura,

I think you are getting confused between qualifications and membership. No one is saying the course is bad, or that tutor marked assessments are bad. I am saying you need more than just that before you get handed a practice certificate. That is membership.

Some of the ICB courses have tutor marked assessments, but you don't get membership or a practice licence anymore until you have sat ICB set and marked examinations, at least 1 being in a centre. 

It is all part of trying to get bookkeepers recognised further as professional industry. Rather than people who do a software course, technically becoming a data inputter, and calling themselves a professional bookkeeper but charging £7 per hour.



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ICBUK wrote:
It would appear that the IAB has gone down the easy route and have accredited a short Sage course with a tutor marked assignment that leads to their membership.

So they have gone in the opposite direction to the ICB (and many on here) that sees software as a support tool which is best harnessed by a professional. 


 

Aren't they talking about ASSOCIATE membership?   In other words, an entry-level, paid-up member of a club and there are both full and fellow memberships to aspire to.



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James,

I am not getting confused, the IAB courses you refer to are all broken down into two parts, both manual (knowledge) and Computerised (skills) at each and every level.(L1, L2 L3).
Only when the student has completed Level 1(2 x courses) and Level 2 (2 x courses) they can then apply for the Associate membership [AIAB]. At this level members are invited to apply for a practice licence.
It is not as you stated, because you don't get handed a practice certificate that easily. Students have to work through 4 courses and satisfy criteria set by IAB examiners and Ofqual.

I am sure the professional industry will recognise it is important for students to learn both manual and computerised at the first basic Level 1. This is the only way of ensuring the student is competent, before moving onto higher levels.
This is simply part of the IAB ethos and Ofqual basic statutory requirements.


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Hi Laura,

Thanks for clearing that up.  So an IAB practicing bookkeeper has had to learn both the manual and computerised sides to it, AND passed the exams in exam centres.

That is certainly best scenario.  I had an feeling it must have been that way, as i know the whole IAB mantra is "exams sat in exams conditions" and a course which didnt require any exam leading to membership did not seem to fit very well.

So at the end of the day both IAB and ICB memebers in practice must have had to sit both manual and computerised exams.



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I think the OP may have chosen the basket weaving course now anyway! lol.

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@Neil lol

Hi Laura,

The IAB website says the Level 1 is optional, the Level 2 is tutor marked assignments. This is information from the IAB's website (http://www.iab.org.uk/pub/L2_Certificate_in_Computerised_Accounting_for_Business_(QCF)_Qual_spec_2011-12.pdf), which is also on training providers websites as well. As per my earlier copy and paste (and Shaun's) you only have to complete the computerised section to get membership.

The ICB and IAB now differ on their opinions on requirements to practise, ICB now requires both manual and computerised + at least 1 centre exam.



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