Offering guarantees - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

BobHarper · Guru

Offering guarantees

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Almost a 'pay what you think we're worth'?

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Why would a client ever rate you more than 5?

That would be Turkeys voting for Christmas.

Or even more topical, Council Tax payers in Birmingham voting that they don't mind paying extra council tax. (methinks that the council is looking for a huge vote from those who get 100% council tax rebates).

Rhianrach · Expert

Hmm it's a trap evileye

Spamkebab · Expert

I'm not playing any more.

I wrote a decent response and deleted it for fear of missing something important

and having a totally blonde moment. Upon deletion, you lot come in and steal my

thoughts lol.

MarkS · Expert

If you score 0 or less does that mean you need to give the 50% back?

BobHarper wrote:
Could you use guarantees to:
Win more clients
Increase your average order
Improving customer satisfaction

In response to the above

No
No
No

Usual Friday afternoon dross from Bob.

Keep at it Bob - as an inventor would say "for every 100 inventions that I have there is one that is good".

Your bound to come up with a good idea at some point.

Though then again...................

Mark

Amanda · Expert

Love it Mark!!!

Rhianrach · Expert

Spamkebab wrote:
I'm not playing any more.

I wrote a decent response and deleted it for fear of missing something important

and having a totally blonde moment. Upon deletion, you lot come in and steal my

thoughts lol.

I did the same, then I figured it out.

BobHarper · Guru

@Mark - a very odd reply bearing in mind you offer a guarantee of draft accounts being completed in 30-days and a 50% rebate if you don't.

By the way, the idea of a non-specific guarantee is that it can be matched to what the client finds most important/valuable. If they don't value what you are guarantee you are unlikely to:

Win more clients
Increase your average order
Improving customer satisfaction

Have you ever asked any prospect/client about the value they think accounts to be completed in 30-days has?

It's unlikely we will focus on that. It's like advertising you have clean toilets in a hotel; it's expected.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Or advertising a good nights sleep on a hotel? Surely you expect that too? But wait, Haven't Premier Inns (Travel Inn) spent millions on an advertising campaign doing just that? Is everyone (except obviously you, Bob) wrong about everything?

Kris

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

BobHarper wrote:
@Mark - a very odd reply bearing in mind you offer a guarantee of draft accounts being completed in 30-days and a 50% rebate if you don't.

No, that's not comparable.

Your guarantee is based on customer satisfaction which in a non tangible variable based on how a client feels.

Marks is a guarantee of completion within a specific time frame which is a tangible variable in that it can be measured.

The key here is that we NEVER (ever, ever, ever) prompt a client with ideas about how they could reduce our fee's.

It's hard enough training them in the first place that it's silly to even think about negotiating on price.

You read that guarantee as a something positive for you.

A client reads it as tick here or below to get a 50% reduction in your fee's... And better still here or above if you would like to take an additional 50% of our fee's off your bottom line.

As Mark suggests, this one is a silly idea that is best abandoned now before you invest too much time that could be spent finding that one elusive idea that will make Crunchers a fortune... Maybe, outlandish idea I know, but you could try studying accountancy to ACCA / ACA level.

The studies are full of brilliant ideas that you could adapt into the big differentiator.

I appreciate that you just want to make money as fast as possible but starting a Franchise before having all your ducks in a row is like buying a car before you've learned to drive.

If you think about the field that you are looking to play in, the people running successful Franchises such as TaxAssist and Certax are qualified accountants.

This is not intended as an insult but rather as (hopefully) constructive comment.

Sometimes in life we just have to take a step backwards in order to go forwards three.

kind regards,

Shaun.

BobHarper · Guru

@Kris - the point is that clients expect high levels of services as standard. And, we are talking about guarantees not just what it advertised.

@Shaun - I am not looking for one big thing for Crunchers to succeed, rather lots of things that all work together.

To give you an idea, over the last few weeks I've been working on a checklist for a start-ups...it will be the basis for a resource we will be making available next year. The content applies to accountants as well as clients and we are up to 123 points. Guarantees is just one point.

Does the ACA or ACCA cover the business case for guarantees?

As regards your earlier comments, not everyone is out to stitch everyone else up. And, if I was working with a client and didn't value me I would want to know quickly so I can move on. And, if they lied just to save some money I wouldn't want to work with them anyway.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

BobHarper wrote:
@Kris - the point is that clients expect high levels of services as standard. And, we are talking about guarantees not just what it advertised.

Ok, you're going to need to explain how their guarentee is not actaully a guarentee. And how is a hotel offering a good nights sleep (the expected service) any different from the comment you made above comparing Marks guarentee to the clean toilet in a hotel.

You've really confused me with your talking in circles now.

Kris

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

BobHarper wrote:
Does the ACA or ACCA cover the business case for guarantees?

From the perspective of ensuring that one does not overstep the IFAC code.

S130 Professional Competence and Due Care means that there is no reason to give a guarantee as quality of work and advice is implied by being a member of a professional organisation.

S240 as we've discussed before in relation to fee's would ensure that services are not offered on contingent basis.

S250, marketing professional services would ensure that guarantee's are not offered that could not be lived up to.

S120 Objectivity would question how objective the accountant would be if they were trying too hard to impress the client which could venture into Self Interest, Advocacy and Management of the client non of which are acceptable without suitable safegaurds such as your work and advice being monitored by an independant accountant or the client being advised to seek to opinion of another accountant in relation to any advice given.

The overriding issue I think here is that you have 123 points. You've posted only one of them on the site and it causes disagreement.

Rather than offering a huge amount of guidance what you should consider is ensuring that all franchisee's understand and adhere to the IFAC code for professional accountants in pratice.

If they are members of professional bodies then they will be bound by the rules, which will override anything and everything that Crunchers tell them.

If they are not members of a professional accountancy bodies then they are probably not properly equiped to offer advice in relation to corporate strategy which from reading other posts is the main thrust of the direction that Crunchers are looking to go.

Shaun.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Well done to you Shaun. You must have a pretty good crystal ball to determine the direction that Crunchers is moving. You couldn't follow them with a map and compass. We're bookkeepers, no we're accountants, no we're tax advisors, no we're alternative accountants. I don't know how even Bob can follow such a scattergun approach.

One thing I'm sure of is that no one need fear the competition. If they are competing with you this week, just give them a week and they'll be competing with someone else. The local shops better watch out, maybe next week they'll be alternative greengrocers.

Kris

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

kjmcculloch83 wrote:
maybe next week they'll be alternative greengrocers.

Because greengrocers are just not keeping their clients supplied with fish... lol

I think that I can see what Bob is going for but he's looking for a shortcut to get there and there are non.

I suppose that you can drive a car without knowing how it works, but you would not be allowed to drive it for very long if you didn't know the rules of the road.

MarkS · Expert

BobHarper wrote:
@Mark - a very odd reply bearing in mind you offer a guarantee of draft accounts being completed in 30-days and a 50% rebate if you don't.

Bob given your attention to detail I thought you would have been more accurate with your quote. As what you say above is wrong.

Regards

Mark

BobHarper · Guru

@Mark - you offer a guarantee, I just don't think it is very powerful.

However, it is better than what most accountants offer and it penalises you for poor practice management, which is good.

@Kris - the Crunchers strategy is really not that complicated...bookkeeping is not a place we want to be so we are relaunching Crunchers as accountants. But, to differentiate ourselves from traditional accountants we are positioning ourselves as Alternative Accountants. The focus is on business advice but our service includes accounting and tax services but not tax strategies.

The business advice will include online software with an online knowledge base with videos on everything a small business would need to know.

@Shaun - I meant does ACA or ACCA studies cover how guarantees work for business development.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

ACA, ACCA studies cover ethics which covers the offering of guarantee's. Or, more to the point where the offer of guarantee's could prove a real threat to objectivity and the actions that one needs to take to mitigate such risk.

Ethics is embedded within all of the modules at the professional level but paper P1 specifically expects one to be able to identify ethical dilema's and propose suitable actions.

Considering the route that Crunchers is looking to go I would think that a fundamental understanding of papers P1 (Professional Accountant), P3 (Business Analysis) and P5 (Advanced Performance management) should be required study for all franchisee's. (All of those expect a level of competence brought forwards from papers F2 (Management Accounting), F5 (Performance Management) and F9 (Financial Management)).

Even if you decide not to make all of your franchisee's real accountants you can get old papers from the ACCA site and make the franchisee's sit them under exam conditions to ensure that they are fit to offer advice to clients in respect of business strategy.

Just sitting those would not make them accountants but it will probably mean that they will have a deeper appreciation of the options so they will be sued less for inappropriate advice born of not appreciating the merits of the available options.

If you decide to offer final accounts and tax services as you indicate those are whole different sets of examinations (and to my mind much more difficult although I've been brought up for the last thirty odd years with the management accountancy side so that's probably why I find it much easier... Why didn't I go down the Cima route!).

Shaun.

BobHarper · Guru

@Shaun - I take from your answer ACA and ACCA studies only cover the ethics of guarantees rather than how they can be used for business development.

By the way, the guarantees we will use at Crunchers are about getting client's opinions/judgements about how well we are doing so I really can't see how that can be unethical.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

A guarantee of quality of work is implied in going to a qualified accountant.

For that reason only the ethical implications of scenarios need be considered.

For accountants to advertise that they guarantee the quality of their work would to my mind be the equivalent of a train operator advertising that their trains had wheels on.

It may prove a neat trick in that the average client probably has no idea the difference between anyone who offers their services as an accountant (well, at least not for starters) so by advertising that you guarantee a service may make the client choose Crunchers over other accountants even though with one the guarantee was advertised and with the other it was implied by the letters after the name.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

The ACCA doesn't cover any single theory but rather gives a wide array of theory's and promotes the idea that we should go beyond the syllabus in our studies.

Jack Trout is widely quoted but is not a set theorist.

Quite like his line "If you ignore your uniqueness and try to be everything for everybody, you quickly undermine what makes you different".

We are all unique and no matter how much you try Bob you will not get those who are widely read to adopt exactly the same thinking as yourself. They may pick up snippets of wisdom as I hope that you do in return but the more free of thinking will always find the path that is right for them as can be seen by the posts from Kris, Mark, and ourselves.

Really to gain a thorough knowledge base you need to look at the works of every legitimate theorist that you can read up as its so much better to drink from every fountain than spend you life sipping from only one.

The real issue with strategic thinkers is that it seems for every great theorist there are a few dozen snake oil salesmen trying to repackage an idea in order to make a living on the lecture circuit. Sometimes that leads to alternate thinking. Other times it leads to confusion and dilution of a great idea.

To my mind there is only one true great theorist, a lot of very good ones and then the rest. The true leader in corporate strategic thinking though has to be Michael Porter who just seems to state the obvious in a way that makes people sit up and think "why the hell didn't I think of that" or more to the point "Why didn't I think of it in that way".

JSW are prime guilty parties for repackaging and recycling the ideas of better men but they are on the ACCA reading list. I suspect because they bring the divorced ideas of so many together within a single framework.

I won't argue about the merits of Jack Trout as I have not (yet) read him in the original. But I hope that you can see that whether he is a pioneer or not, we should always read the work of others.

Hope that makes sense,

Shaun.

p.s. edited only to remove a couple of words left from the first draft of the reply that made no sense in the line where they had been left.

-- Edited by Shamus on Monday 10th of December 2012 02:11:32 PM

BobHarper · Guru

@Shaun - there are implied guarantees but I don't think they cover things like a) clients understanding their numbers b) bringing fresh insights to clients and b) a stream of practice advice to help business owners develop their business.

We'll be surveying businesses on this like this (and publishing the results) when we launch to see what businesses are really getting.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

But the question mark is over the advice.

What is your setup. How can you have front line franchisee's sat opposite clients giving advice if they do not appreciate a wide selection of options?

AAT which is the people that you seem to be aiming at as franchisees prepares people really well to work in an accounts environment but it is not enough to be offering clients advice regarding corporate strategy

In your previous incarnation as bookkeepers that didn't do bookkeeping I could understand the setup in that your franchisees were front line sales people for a back office support team (not looking to get into the offshore debate here) so although the client felt that their books were being looked after by X they were in fact being prepared by Y.

That's not a model that I would use but I know from personal experience that it (mostly) works for the larger consultancies and I can see where your business model was coming from.

With offering advice though your front line marketing franchisee's will be out of their depth as I cannot see how you can have franchisee's in customer facing roles offering advice on strategy as they would not be able to refer back to an accountant working in the background or be able to quickly check the web for an answer as that looks unprofessional.

I find that every client is different in what they want and what they need and their attitude to risk. Crunchers will of course take that into account but when it comes to advising the client on business strategy will your advice be the best for that client? How will your franchisee's know that it is the best advice if they have not had exposure to the more rigorous expectations of the higher qualifications?

Going back to the pricing question just as an example. There are dozens of pricing models and you cannot just consider the one that you like as that may not be the best for that client. Just look at these few which is by no means an exhaustive list of the models out there.

Penetration Pricing
Competitive Pricing
Full Cost Pricing
Complementary Pricing
Perceived Value Pricing
Product range pricing
Price Skimming
Product Line Pricing
Price Differentiation
Market Penetration Pricing
Price Discrimination pricing
Cost Plus pricing (lol, I almost forget to include that one myself!)
Target Pricing
Marginal Pricing

Yep, another long list. Don't even get me onto the sheer volume of costing models or approaches to budgeting

Crunchers may not like all models but they need to consider them in any advice given which needs to be specific to the client rather than generic pre recorded videos.

It takes a huge amount of time in order to be put in a position where one is able to give that sort of strategic advice and at the moment you may be looking in the wrong place for people able to offer that level of advice... And when you look in the right place you absolutely, 100%, have to dump that sheep video or risk your franchisee's being excommunicated by their professional bodies.

There is no such thing as an alternate accountant. There are only people who are accountants and people who are not.

Shaun.

BobHarper · Guru

@Shaun - the AAT with some extra training, resources and coaching around tax/other areas not covered in depth by AAT is more than enough for our offices to look after compliance to a very high standard. The knowledge about strategy, marketing, sales pricing and management has been drawn together from a wide range of sources, mostly outside the accounting profession.

Interesting about risk. I have always thought that accountants should carry out a fact find (like IFAs do) to get the clients risk profile so that advice can be matched. I need to add this to the Crunchers client engagement process!

Once there was horseless carriage and now there are lots of different types of cars. Once there was a computer now their are laptops, pads and tablets. Once there were accountants, now there are Alternative Accountants. You may not like us but we exist and my plan is to grow this category.

I would suggest the profession look at themselves rather than my video. Who do you think helped Jimmy Carr, Starbucks and the rest of them avoid paying their fair share of tax? As regards business advice, a business coach used an interesting phrase the other day. He said accountants are witnesses to the crime of start-up failure. If the profession has got it so right, how comes there is so much failure?

Our economy is REALLY struggling for growth and without it we will all suffer. Accountants can play a significant role in getting growth back into the economy. That is why we will focus on.

As regards pricing, I sort of feel a micro/small business hasn't got much choice other than to Value Price.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

BobHarper wrote:
the AAT with some extra training, resources and coaching around tax/other areas not covered in depth by AAT is more than enough for our offices to look after compliance to a very high standard.
That is what AAT is good at for the SME market.
The knowledge about strategy, marketing, sales pricing and management has been drawn together from a wide range of sources, mostly outside the accounting profession.
Strategy, pricing and management are key aspects of accountancy training.
I will agree that marketing is not a key part of the syllabus although it is covered.

Interesting about risk. I have always thought that accountants should carry out a fact find (like IFAs do) to get the clients risk profile so that advice can be matched. I need to add this to the Crunchers client engagement process!
Yes, risk analysis is a key part of the process both from client profitability and ethical perspectives
Once there was horseless carriage and now there are lots of different types of cars. Once there was a computer now their are laptops, pads and tablets. Once there were accountants, now there are Alternative Accountants. You may not like us but we exist and my plan is to grow this category.
I stick by what I say. There are accounts and non accountants. There is no such thing as an alternative accountant.
I would suggest the profession look at themselves rather than my video. Who do you think helped Jimmy Carr, Starbucks and the rest of them avoid paying their fair share of tax? As regards business advice, a business coach used an interesting phrase the other day. He said accountants are witnesses to the crime of start-up failure. If the profession has got it so right, how comes there is so much failure?
Jimmy Carr, Starbucks, Amazon and Google have done absolutely nothing wrong. They acted completely within the law and within the tax system. The only people doing anything wrong are the media for the witch hunt that they are carrying out to try and ensure that companies such as Amazon take their base of operations (and all of their jobs) to different shores.

Our economy is REALLY struggling for growth and without it we will all suffer. Accountants can play a significant role in getting growth back into the economy. That is why we will focus on.
Agreed, we are finally singing from the same hyme sheet.
That attitude is not something unique to Crunchers but part of the issue that we have is that Crunchers put it accross as though it is.
All accountants that I know care about the companies that they represent and want them to do well.
Sometimes though it must be said with some business owners that whilst you can lead them to water you cannot make them drink.
We can offer advice, we can tell them what will go wrong, we can tell them how to avoid the issues but at the end of the day we do not run their companies and when they go off and do the opposit to the given advice then all we can do is damage limitation.

As regards pricing, I sort of feel a micro/small business hasn't got much choice other than to Value Price.
UK small business need to concentrate upon differentiation pricing which would also encompass Perceived Value Pricing (which is a pricing strategy on the syllabus and it's what Ron Baker refers to as Value Pricing... Sorry, it didn't click that it was the same thing until I scan read the Ron baker booklet (full read still on the to do list)).
The key is that UK business cannot hope to compete against China or India (or Brazil sneakily coming up on the inside track) on cost.
Have a read of the Goldman Sachs article "Thinking in BRICs" which paints the business landscape for the next 50 years.... We're all doomed!
I don't think that the work is particularly well written and there are some holes in the logic
The big money as indictated by the Goldman Sachs work is on the key players of this century will be Brazil, Russia, India and China... Personally I'm not convinced about India as I feel that they were the early leader but didn't invest their money in infrastructure projects and are now on the point of implossion.

BobHarper · Guru

@Shaun - is Positioning covered in ACA and ACCA training?

I'll let you know when we go live with www.AlternativeAccountants.com. I am thinking of creating my own "body"...perhaps an "Association" so we are triple A rated!!!

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Positioning is covered under P1, P3 and P5 (actually, it may also be in at F1 and F2 in the fundamentals level plus F5 and F9 at the skills level).

The basic concept follows the work of theorists such as Ansoff, Harmon, etc.

They have handy matrix type diagrams to visualise their ideas about almost automating ideas such as when to automate, when to outsource, when to take in house.

The whole area fits nicely within strategic thinking and stakeholder theories.

I really enjoyed those studies as playing with other concepts makes you think outside the box.

The Kaplan texts for those models are pretty timeless and it would be a good idea for Crunchers to invest in a full set plus the Johnston. Scholes and Whittington book that I spoke about before. (so for 7 * £35 plus £55 (so £300) you could amass yourself a nice s little corporate strategy library... Oh dear, looks back at his own library of a couple of hundred books and thinks if those few are worth £300 how much have I actually spent!).

On the start your own body front, there's nothing like having big dreams and I can't knock you for that.

Its certainly something that worked for the ICB. Must admit to having toyed with the idea myself as it seems a great way for people to give you lots of money every year.

Be wary though that just like franchising, for every success like the ICB there are a few dozen that don't make it.

Definitely an area where the old adage of build it and they will come doesn't necessarily hold true.

Shaun.

BobHarper · Guru

@Shaun - I had a look at the P3 training video on OpenTuition.com for Product Positioning and it didn't appear to be the Positioning methodology we use.

Ours comes from the work of Jack Trout's who is accredited as one of the founders and pioneers of positioning theory.

Is his work covered in ACCA or ACA?

BobHarper · Guru

@Shaun - you can add Jack Trout to your list after Ron Baker.

By the way, who decides the syllabus for ACA and ACCA and how much work do they do with start-ups, micro and very small businesses?

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

on the bright side though you've only added £11.39 to my reading list (I'm looking at "differentiate of die" rather than "Positioning" although the two of them would be under £18) where I've added around £300 to your reading list biggrin .

The syllabus is not so much one person in a back run deciding what people need learn but rather the result of :

Survey findings from stakeholder surveys, including students, members and employers.

Feedback obtained from external examiners and reviewers appointed by accrediting and awarding bodies.

Feedback obtained from Examination Review Boards, from representative learning providers and from exam candidates.

Feedback from internal examiners on candidate performance from successive exam sessions.

That list is taken from this document on the changes for the 2012 syllabi which can be seen in its entirety here :

http://www2.accaglobal.com/pubs/students/publications/student_accountant/archive/sa_oct11_study_guides.pdf

Since 2009 there has been more of a focus on the needs of smaller entities including unincorporated businesses, although it must be said that strategy knows no boundaries of size and if applying larger company strategies and methodologies to the smaller entity can be of benefit to your clients.

For example, Kaizen approaches to quality. Internal benchmarking, Gap Analysis, etc.

I see no issue of applying ACCA mentality to the tiniest start ups as the best way surely to look at each micro business is the gestation period of a larger enterprise.

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Slight update,

just came across the Jack Trout book "Marketing Warfare".

Had a look inside and the ideas rang bells.

Whilst the book itself is not on the reading list the ideas (Offencive and defencive marketing of services) is part of the F5 syllabus as part of the skills level. Or at least it was when I did it. Idea's tend to move between papers but it is seldom that they disappear completely unless they are shown to be superseded and hence useless. (I'm sure that once upon a time someone thought matrix management was a good idea! (The brains behind that one should be taken out the back of a building and shot).

Anyway, getting off topic. In short :

1) The ideas of Jack Trout are on the syllabus but he is not mentioned in the Syllabus by name.

2) The ideas of Ron Baker are encompassed in perceived value pricing. Plus of course he gets his own ACCA booklet (actually he gets three but only the first one is free).

There you go, are you changing your mind about accountants yet?

Shaun.

BobHarper · Guru

I'll need to have a look at the detail of F5 syllabus to see how Positioning is explained. Do you know if/where I get hold of something?

There is a common misunderstanding that Positioning is something done in the market "looking for a gap in the market" is a common phrase. In fact, I think that was used in the video I watched. However, Trout's work is about Positioning being done in the mind and creating a new category which is we have done with Alternative Accountants.

I'll change my mind about accountants when they stop using time based billing.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Bob,

I think that you may be under a slight misapprehension about the videos.

They are like a revision course but you could not pass an exam from the limited information that is in the videos.

I've just taken a glance and it looks as though attacks, flanking, defences, marketing guerrilla warfare, etc. have all moved from the F5 to the P3 Syllabus (they are a tiny part of it) and also pricing has moved completely from P5 to P3 (as pricing is seen as a core skill where P5 is an optional paper) so if you want to just buy one study text I think that P3 would be the way to go (I prefer Kaplan to BPP).

Even the texts are not an end in themselves and I think that they are designed to spike your interest so that you also read around the subject.

At the higher levels the exams are very much at MSc level where you are expected to think beyond the methodologies and rather than taking your ideas from one place you apply ideas from a wide pool of knowledge.

That's why at that level there are often no right answers, only valid arguments and invalid ones and you are judged uipon how convincingly you make your case even if such is at odds with the examiners perception.

For P3 I know that I got near full marks for arguing a case for development of a platform product where such was not what the examiner was looking for but my answer was just as valid as theirs,

That I think is what differentiates the ACCA over some other qualifications in that one is encouraged to think outside the box and in exams you will be rewarded for it.

kind regards,

Shaun.

BobHarper · Guru

@Shaun - interesting so I could pass ACCA by arguing the profession is unethical because of time based billing?

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

If the question was phrased in that way and there was legitimacy to the arguement that could not be easily disproved then you probably could.

The arguement has to stand up to scrutiny though and be within the ethical guidelines.

No matter how convincing your arguement, if it is wroing you wouldn't pick up any points.

The thing is though that in accountancy there is invariably more than one right answer and that includes the occassional one that even the examiner didn't think of.

On the whole divorcing price from time, and by definition cost there are serious flaws in the logic.

Reading Ron Baker even he did not go to the extreme of suggesting that time and price are totally divorced from each other, but then you are more widely read on Mr Baker than myself so I could be missing something perhaps from his more comprehensive works than the ACCA booklet which at 44 pages cannot be Mr Bakers whole thinking on the subject.

Shaun.

BobHarper · Guru

@Shaun - the time an accountant spends on something has nothing to do with what they client is prepared to pay. The accountant is free to price using time (and most do) but that is no guarantee that the price is the best price. When I mean the best price I mean for the client and the accountant.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Bob,

I was in Brum for a while yesterday and took the opportunity to pop into Waterstones where I happened across Trouts 22 Immutable laws of marketing.

I had a while to kill before my meeting and read chapter 1 which I have to say has not inspired me to read further as the guys just plain wrong.

The whole argument of the first law is based on you need to be a leader rather than a follower as nobody remembers the followers even though those who were second may have been better.

The book is quite old (it's 1994 but seemed older!) and uses examples which really disprove the hypotheses that the authors are trying to make.

For example. Microsoft is a company that you would use for an operating system but you would not go to them for your word processing or spreadsheet software... Really!

Excel took the leader from the book (lotus) chewed it up and spat it out. That Lotus took pole position just made it the Target.

Also the book suffers from being aimed at an American audience. Just as an example, people ask for Anvil. Nobody has heard of Ibuprofen. Again... Really.

I think that what the book does do well though is to increase the readers knowledge by disagreeing with what the book is saying.

The book may have been updated since the version that I saw but the fact that it is so wrong punches holes in anything that the author states.

It may well improve after chapter 1 but in this instance I'm not going to find out as the guy was just proven so wrong in the concept that he gave pole position amongst the immutable laws. (Maybe his book "Positioning" is better but they didn't have that one on the shelf... Or at least not that I could see).

Conversely Ron Bakers ideas are growing on me now that I have been reading them in the original rather than expedited excerpts which would have us believe that there is some quantum gap between traditional approaches and his ideas which in reality still have their basis in time based costing and pricing but with the value element added like the icing on a cake.

I'm no convert to value pricing but I'm not anti his ideas that recycle and repackage various other approaches to pricing which I have always felt legitimate.

I've yet to give baker the read that he deserves but after my initial read of trout I don't think that he will be adorning my shelves so I may fill that gap with a purchased version of Bakers book.... After I've bought this years Melville taxation so don't hold your breath for my thoughts on the Baker book (although, I am looking forwards to reading that one more than 250+ questions on the tax system under FA12).

All in all though Bob even though I may not agree with Trout the old adage remains that anything that doesn't kill you makes you stronger (Neiche) so even by seeing that Trout is wrong he has shown that the opposite of his idea is correct which in itself is sound learning.

Regards,

Shaun.

p.s. for anyone else reading this, my comments are based only on Trouts first law or marketing. His other twenty one may be absolutely perfect but I didn't get that far as to my mind a book that is fundamentally wrong in the first chapter cannot be trusted to be correct in the remainder.