Two potential clients have approach me to take them on as self employed sole traders. They are Eastern Europeans who can't speak very good english, and have been rejected national insurance numbers. However they have been working as cleaners for an agency for about 6 months. The agency requested that they be self employed in order to work with them. As I said the Job Centre Plus have interviewed them and refused the ni numbers. They have had notification from me that I am taking them on as clients.
So they are working without being in PAYE or Self Employed (For about 6 months now)
If the application has been regjected then they are not allowed to work in the UK.
Forcing self employment could be a ploy by the agency as the people will have already been working for the agency but it is illegal for the agency to pay them.
My impression is that there is a behind the scenes reversal of the labour policy of opening the floodgates and it is now being made difficult for migrants to find work legally so without work or right to any benefits they are forced to return their countries of origin.
I actually feel sorry for them as it is not their fault that the policies of the last government have been reversed by the current administration.
That said, the last administrations policies were foolhardy to say the least.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
How can they register as self employed with HMRC without an UTR or NI number?
Personally i think that the cleaning agency may be in the wrong for a start. Just because they want the workers to be self employed, does not make them self employed.
As their bookkeeper, you will need to carry out your own due dilligence, and make sure they have a right to work.
I think that the rules are that if they can satify the border agency then people can start working as soon as they have applied for an NI number but they cannot be paid until they actually have one which is what I was getting at about feeling sorry for them as to my mind I can see a scenario where agencies are getting free entry level workers for a few weeks then washing their hands of them.
From the border agency self employment advice leaflet :
You are allowed to take up self-employed activity without having a National Insurance Number (NINo) but you should apply for one as soon as you start self-employment. As part of your NINo application you will be required to provide evidence and demonstrate that you are genuinely self-employed.
However, how can someone claim that they are self employed if they do not passs the basic criterion? Here are the basic rules for the border agency to consider a person as legitimately self employed are :
You must be pursuing an economic activity You must be undertaking genuine and effective work Your work / occupation must have permanence and that it is on a stable and continuous basis You must have responsibility for your own work You must be directly and fully remunerated for your own work You must bear or share the commercial and economic risks of the business You must hold membership of aprofessional body or a licence whereapplicable (e.g. scrap metal dealers, registered child minders).
I don't see that Eastern European cleaners can pass those tests. (espechially the economic risk one)
kind regards,
Shaun.
p.s. here's the borer agency document on self employment : http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/eea/self-employ.pdf
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
there's no doubt about it that from a professional perspective one should wash there hands of them as they carry way too much inherent risk. Too much risk to be born by little businesses like ours.
I was just trying to give a take on the situation where I believe that certain agents are fleecing Eastern European migrant workers with no real intention of ever paying them.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
I was thinking the same, they must have been refused NI for a reason, so infact they are in our country and working illegally, the cleaning company have only just realised so that's why they are saying go self-employed as it gets them off the hook, but technically it doesn't.
If it was me I would walk away, it could get very messy and be very time consuming, time is money and could be spent on something else more constructive for your business.
Sorry it may not be the answer you were looking for.
