Thanks Shaun. It was ICAEW, but that was 30 years ago, and most of it spent deep in the bowels of banks with software that makes Sage look like, well...
truth be told, I've only spent a few minutes with Sage, enough to know what it is, and I have looked at Xero and Kashflow more closely, but the more accounting software I used, the more I was convinced that the decision to make my own crude spreadsheets was the right one for my own small business.
Until, and perhaps this will make more clear what I am trying to get at, I came across ledger and reckon [1]
My point is that opening up, continually changing mode in the interface and making multiple entries is probably best performed as the last phase in the production of documents on local software where the operator can be quickest.
I'm thinking this could be a superior workflow to predictive input and recurring entries.
My idea is this: that the maintenance of day books doesn't fit the way most businesses work nowadays with the immediacy of the availability of PayPal records, bank and credit card statements etc.
Most accountancy software requires this recording and subsequent reconciliation to accounts, based in the mainly historic requirements due to credit and cheque clearing latencies.
Some businesses do need to do this, but most don't, and in fact operate differently, often depositing a pile on invoices with their bookkeeper/accountant (yes I am aware of the difference) post-hoc, with the bank statements.
If I am right, then I think I have a good idea for an online service for bookkeepers and accountants: the bookkeeper provides the service with the downloaded bank accounts of the client, perhaps by emailing as attachments or uploading from a form on a web page, and the service spits back its best guess of what the accounts should look like.
This works by making use of intelligent thoroughbred hamsters on the back end (machine learning).
In period one the hamsters know that: 15/06/2013,D/D, PITNEY BOWES FINAN,-88.70
is a postage cost and posts it to the appropriate account.
In period two, they know that: 28/06/2013,BAC, J&L Plumbing Supplies, taps,-393.04
is a cost of goods as they were trained in the prior period.
The machine learning occurs for each statement provider, bookkeeper, and bookkeeper client.
Obviously there is a problem for cheques, for which little information is provided, but I think we might be able to do something about that.
Anyway, I'd be grateful for any response.
Am I wrong about this? Are there any similarly inspired implementations already?
What proportion of your clients really need traditionally based software requirements?
Let me know if I've transgressed any of the norms of the forum here.
And please, ask away! I'm quite serious about this!
predictive data entry is built into many pieces of software.
The data that is collected and the evidence the bookkeeper / accountant needs to see is to give evidence of transactions and events so that the financial professional is able to prepare the financial statements on a basis acceptable to HMRC and where necessary companies house.
I would say that the majority of software is designed around real world use although some peivces of software in attempting to make themselves idiot proof do actually make themselves more difficult for financial professionals to use.
There is no love lost between myself and one certain pieces of software but that doesn't mean that I don't think that it can do what it is supposed to.
If Paypal does not fit around reporting requirements then it is Paypal, not the reporting requirements that needs to change.
The alternative seems to be the equivalent of driving up to a mountain and then deciding that the mountain needs to be moved rather than going around it.
Would you like to introduce yourself to the forum so that we are able to best gauge the level of response to questions,
kind regards,
Shaun.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Shaun, thanks for the response. By way of brief introduction I'm an ex trainee accountant, temporary worker, small business owner and manager (an insurance brokerage).
This isn't a joke, I am quite prepared to accept that I'm wrong about this, but I am not suggesting any change to reporting requirements or that existing software doesn't do the job.
Just that the interface is overkill for the majority of requirements.
That at a minimum the software should output a full set of entries for a period with the minimum information that can be provided, without making individual entries that may take advantage of predictive input.
Sure, quite a bit or work might be subsequently required, but this can be reduced period by period.
software already does that by setting up recurring entries which do not come into effect until the date is reached.
Combine that with predictive input for things such as telecoms bills were the amount is not known but you want the software to know where to put everything and I think that what you are looking for already exists.
I think that the confusion may be the assumption that everyone uses Sage (#1) and it is that piece of software that you are trying to make more user freindly where a better approach is simply to adopt different software that works as you want to work (such as VT).
There is quite a wide spread of users of different software on the Site including (but not restricted to) VT, Quickbooks, Kashflow, Xero and Sage.
Some software such as Xero take bank feeds and miss out the data input all together (now where's the fun in that, lol).
Welcome to the forum Charlie.
By the way, which body were you a trainee with? There's nothing loaded in that question, just wondering and no need to answer it if you don't want to.
kind regards,
Shaun.
#1 easy assumption to make when every other question on the site is a question in relation to Sage!
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
I agree with the main thrust of your argument but I think the days of replacing expensive people with cheaper people (usually offshore) are over. The future belongs to those who can replace people with technology.
Traditional bookkeeping software, such as Sage or QuickBooks, does tend to lead the user towards entering invoices then bank transactions to match them to, which means entering data twice often needlessly for non-credit transactions.
The new breed of software is addressing this problem. Using Xero as an example, which is the new product I am most familiar with, the bookkeeping begins with bank statement data automatically fed in via the web. The bookkeeper then has the simple task of coding each transaction in the reconciliation list. Importantly, Xero learns as it goes, so further down the line, it can automatically determine where a posting is likely to be going and just requires the user to confirm this, with one click.
I think this is the methodology you were getting at with your original post and I can confirm that Xero for one is already putting it into practice.
-- Edited by Topaccountants on Saturday 23rd of March 2013 11:42:33 AM
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Adrian Pearson Blog: www.adrianpearson.com | Mobile: 07944 970997 | Email: adrianpearson@outlook.com Xero data conversion specialist. Founder of Movemybooks and Ledgerscope.
I can't believe I'm actually going to stick up for Sage here, but here goes...
Topaccountants wrote:
Traditional bookkeeping software, such as Sage or QuickBooks, does tend to lead the user towards entering invoices then bank transactions to match them to, which means entering data twice often needlessly for non-credit transactions.
While Sage has always (at least as long as I've been using it) had sales and purchase ledger facilities, it has also always had bank transactions that can be posted directly to nominal codes, so I don't think it's fair to say it leads the user that way, since it caters for both. If anything, it's people who use those facilities encouraging/teaching others to use them when they don't necessarily need to. I suspect the same is true of QuickBooks as well.
The new breed of software is addressing this problem. Using Xero as an example, which is the new product I am most familiar with, the bookkeeping begins with bank statement data automatically fed in via the web. The bookkeeper then has the simple task of coding each transaction in the reconciliation list.
You could do this with Sage, as well, although it would be less automated, by saving the bank transactions from the online banking as a CSV file. You would have to do the 'coding' before importing that CSV file into Sage, most likely via a spreadsheet, rather than Sage itself prompting you. You could also write a separate piece of software that handles the CSV file before importing it into Sage - and what that could do is only limited by what the programmer can do. So it could 'learn' for future reference in the same way Xero does.
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Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software
(I only came here looking for fellow apiarists...)
we had a similar conversation with a software rep coming in and telling us what their software could do that you couldn't do using traditional mainframe development tools.
I think that he probably drove straight from the meeting to the nearest bridge to either throw all of his sales gumf or himself off as every assumption that his company had made was wrong.
Think that the poor guy was more used to dealing with managers who believe what sales reps tell them rather than those who know what they are doing.
Can't remember which thread but like yourself even I found myself defending Sage the other day.... Doesn't mean that for me it would win in a toss up between their software and an Abacus but regardless of that fairs fair and there are enough things to tear it appart for without stating one's that are not factually correct.
Still wouldn't buy though as to my mind VT is far supperior.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
I recently undertook a project to update a mammoth amount of data from spreadsheets to sage. I used a piece of software called 'excel to sage' and it literally uploads mass info in the form of customer, supplier contact details, invoices, payments, journals etc etc onto sage. while it has its own limitations (the need for unique unique unique referencing where dates are the same on mass uploads of whatever you're working on) it made uploading 6 months of data a two week project.
The data itself was extrapolated from excel spreadsheets anyway so there was no 'manual' entry so to speak - which meant no transpo errors etc. copy and paste
This was done for speed and accuracy for an investment based company where sage was being used for investors as creditors and borrowers of huge amounts of money as debtors - the financial reflection absolutely had to be spot on as FSA would have freaked out otherwise - not to mention the investors...
If you absolutely HAVE to use the beast that is Sage, and you have lots to do, it's worth exploring 'excel to sage' to help.
I know this isn't what the thread was about but I wanted to get it off my chest - like most sage things - it needs to be exorcised from the soul.
Xero is great for smart recognition of previously entered data but only for P&L entries - if you are booking purchase/sales invoices, they'll sit on balance sheet. If you just click 'ok' to reconcile something Xero says it recognises to be linked to a named supplier etc, it won't hit the payables on the balance sheet, just the expense code on P&L. You will have to 'find and match' to particular invoices in order to do this OR when you book the invoice, if you know it's been paid, when you approve the invoice to be booked, you can enter details underneath to say it's been paid, when and by what (chq etc) that can link up a little bit better to the bank rec in terms of being recognised and matched with bank entries etc.
Some interesting informations. This'll be a little hasty, but I hope to come back with more in a few days.
Another way to see what I am trying to propose is to consider use of the accountancy software as a black box, sometimes, or even most of the time if i am right, as opposed to using it primarily as an interface. Clearly this would be more often appropriate for experts, those comfortable with accounting and confident of the effects of their actions.
Perhaps commands are sent on a single line to the software, e.g. 'DR Cash 1001 23.14, CR Postage 1030 23.14', a spreadsheet is dumped to it, or an email sent to the machine with some instructions.
Funnily enough, I was going to give an example of a trading desk in my initial post as a scenario demonstrating when use as a black box would be less efficacious than using an interface. Shows what I know.
Kate's post also demonstrates that the software can operate both with an interface and as a black box, as Sage does in this example, and as VinceH points out.
So I need to think about use cases for when my hypothesis is likely to be true:
E.g. (haven't properly thought these through yet)
- After initial set up for an enterprise, when operators are experienced - When data is more easily available in formats unsuited to the current interface - For large numbers of transactions - When all the transactions for a period are available
Then, consider if I can design a service for a limited set of these use cases where there might be a market.
Sure, I think my somewhat grandiose title might be somewhat overreaching, but I am becoming more confident. Let's face it if software is generally bad, accounting software certainly gets its fair share of criticism.
VT Transaction+ and VT Accounts as developed by accountants for accountants by VT Software.
The interface is basically a front end on Excel (although Transaction+ is actually stand alone it's roots remain obvious).
VT software requires that yiou have a knowkledge of double entry to use it unlike offerings such as Sage and Quickbooks which require that you knwo the software rather than accounting theory per se.
Sure that I'm being thick but the way that you are explaining your idea it sounds more complex than the offerings already in the market place.
I note that you are adopting the Sage approach of using codes which I feel is one of it's weaknesses in that end users need to learn codes which in the real world are meaningless beyond the software whereas the approach of other software using the appropriate ledgers to record transactions makes more sense to me.
I'm still not seeing your market.
Accountants want software that is easy to use.
Clients want software that is easy to understand.
Sage and quickbooks try to be both, VT and Iris aim at the accountants market, cloud offerings (Xero, Kashflow, Freeagent, etc.) try to apeal to the end user.
The key is that no matter who uses the software it has to be simple as we are not working to the software but rather the software is working for us. As such it needs to be simple, intuitive, and seen as a tool for the work rather than the work itself.
The example that you gave of a line entry sent to a black box is not giving a warm and fuzzy feeling that you aretaking on a forwards step but as I say, I may have misunderstood your post.
All in all though there is a lot to be said for the old addage of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
And personally I cannot ever see myself moving away from VT as my practices software of choice.
kind regards,
Shaun.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
New to the forum so apologies in advance if I inadvertently transgress any of the rules or given etiquette!.
As has already been noted, there are already packages that will import bank statement data directly - Iris Quick books and Xero to my knowledge.
ImpKISS is an online cashbook that we've just launched for recording mainly cash and bank transactions, with an easy to use bank reconciliation facility for non accounting types with enough functionality to satisfy accounting types - or so we hope!!
Given that we've literally just launched what we perceive to be a simple and easy to use on line cash book, we'd really appreciate any feedback from a user's point of view in 'the real world'.
Direct import of bank statement information is on our 'to do wish list' - our idea being to continue to improve, develop and innovate the product to give users a tool that really helps, and giving them the functionality they want, without having to wade through a lot of stuff they don't need.
Thanks in advance if you do get an opportunity to putting ImpKISS 'through it's paces' and for any feedback which will help us to improve it,
@VinceH Of course I agree that Sage and QB etc allow bank postings direct to nominal accounts. But I actually said "tend to lead the user towards ..".
I stand by this and, in reality, how many times do you see clients using the Sage bank statement import features? In Xero its an obvious, easy part of the normal workflow. And, by making it part of the main UI, the machine learning can provide big efficiencies at the coding stage. This benefit is lost when manually coding a CSV every time before importing it into Sage.
I guess a good analogy is the music download market. It was perfectly possible in pre iPod days to download MP3 tracks to a portable device: but it took Apple, making the whole process slick and user friendly, to really bring the benefits to the mass market.
Adrian
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Adrian Pearson Blog: www.adrianpearson.com | Mobile: 07944 970997 | Email: adrianpearson@outlook.com Xero data conversion specialist. Founder of Movemybooks and Ledgerscope.
@Adrian: I have seen a few small businesses where they just use bank payments and receipts but not many - but to be fair, that's because for my regular client base, using the sales and purchase ledgers is actually the right way to go; those exceptions weren't regular clients, just cases where I've been called in to sort out a problem. The bottom line, though, is that in the few cases I've seen where a cashbook based approach would be better, they've been using Sage that way.
Of course, in the wider world a lot more people could be using an invoice based approach where they needn't, but I can only comment on what I've seen and what I know it can do - so based on what I've seen, I also have to stand by what I've said; that it doesn't lead the user that way, and that it's more likely other people (who themselves happen to use it that way - perhaps more appropriately in their cases) leading users that way.
As for the import facilities, that's another matter. The answer is the only time I see people importing data into Sage via CSV is where I've got them to do that in the first place, usually using software I've written for whatever reason! However, I have seen some cases where people use third party applications that work with Sage - again, though, not regular clients. I've never looked into it, but I assume that (for a large fee, probably) Sage will provide an API so that software can be written to feed data directly into it. Even though that's not the users going via Sage's import facilities, it arguably amounts to the same thing in a more automated way.
But then, I didn't suggest that the import facilities were used to import bank statements, only that they could be used to do that - and I did point out that doing it just via Sage's import would mean manual tweaking, but that third party software could be written to do, in essence, what you are saying Xero does - either using the APIs to write the data directly into Sage, or by creating a CSV file for importing, similar to what I've done in the past, but for different source data; bank statements.
The thing to remember: Sage is just software - but Xero is also just software. Both run on computers. The fact that one is running in the cloud, one one or more servers, and the other is running locally on someone's desk (or on a local network server) is irrelevant. If one can do it, then the other can be made to do it - and while I've suggested third party solutions as a way to do it, Sage themselves could implement the same features in the software if they so chose. As could any developer of any piece of accounting/bookkeeping software.
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Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software
(I only came here looking for fellow apiarists...)
