Where does all the money go that the BNI make?.............. - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Where does all the money go that the BNI make?..............

VinceH · Expert

I hadn't even thought of the exclusivity angle.

The variance in fees is interesting, and makes Amanda's questions even more pertinent, I think. (I didn't look at individual chapter fees - like I said, very quick.) Is the inference that can be taken from this that if you operate in a dodgy area, the fees will be cheaper because there are only riff-raff to be let in?

-- Edited by VinceH on Saturday 6th of April 2013 02:03:25 PM

Amanda · Expert

Hi Everyone,

Bit of a daft question, where does all the money go that the BNI make from each person? I have a friend that went to one recently and has been invited to join. Anyway due to cost and the rigid structure he isn't interested in joining, plus there are plenty of FREE groups to join in his area or cheaper groups that are equally as good if not better. They are expected if they joined to cough up a whopping amount of money and then pay £10 per week for the meeting and are expected to go to each meeting. Well that won't always be easy in itself depending on work commitments, so straight away he would be conpelled to go even if he couldn't make it on the day. Then they are expected to bring a list of 30 referrels to a meeting and then they expect you to bring a friend etc, I'm sure you get the drift!

I am not slating the BNI as I expect they are good for some, but really when you look at it, is it pyramid selling? If so where does all the money go that people spend to join it? Is there a fat cat at the top creaming off the money, I know they would have to pay for venues which are usually hotels or nice pubs, but even so there is still alot of excess money left if they have alot of paying members. Do they have large functions once or twice a year to swallow up the money?

I am curious to know, do the member once they ave a referral join get paid a commission themselves perhaps?

It kind of reminding me of a certain company beginning with 'A' from a long while back that used to sell household products and it was pyramid selling, admittedly some did realy well at it, but others never got out of the starting blocks!

I am interested to know what your thoughts are. I am curious to see if anyone knows anyone that has joined and actually done really well from it or do they wish they hadn't joined!

I know that Gary touched on this brielfy in another thread.

Many thanks

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Its a business. Actually, it's a huge business which is an American model roled out accross the globe.

The people that I know who are members of BNI are accountants and join to stop other accountants from rival practices joining the chapter then send along non named partner level people to the meetings on the grounds that its a getting noticed in the business community excercise rather than actually winning any business from the meetings which they do not attempt to do.

And there I think is the key.

People join the Network expecting it to generate business but you are actually in a room of people with everyone hypathetically attempting to sell something and not to buy anything.

The real strength of BNI which only becomes clear later is that its a businesses passport into the business community and although it is extremely unlikely that you will gain any business directly from the meetings the people that you meet will, if they are impressed with you, give your details to others looking for your services and referals are where the business comes from.

I am not a member of BNI and this is coming from being with someone for quite a while who was not a named partner who had to get up before the crack of dawn to go to these meetings and I saw the transition from "what is the point in this when it doesn't bring in any business" to a fair chunk of work coming into the practice from BNI referrals.... But to my knowledge she never gained any business directly from a meeting itself.

I suppose an analogy for BNI might be taking a car to work. The car and the journey do not actually make you any money but they put you in a position where you will gain money because the car got you there.

Thats my take on BNI. Nothing against it at all and can see how it would work for some but not others. I can also see how many might initially be disappointed in it as the expectation of immediate sales is not the way that it seems to be geared... Although maybe some chapters are different to others.

Thats my take on it and like yourself always interested to hear other peoples opinions on things things such as this.

kind regards,

Shaun.

Amanda · Expert

Hi Shaun,

I understand that they are not expected to actually pick up business there as then, and its referral work and hopefully if you are pleasant and come across well then people will remember your face and then refer you to a colleague and then actually get business that way. The Chapter that my colleague went to was good but as a new start up he doesn't want to part with all that money when its needed to be used for other things at present. Also he is attending a lot of other networking events to get himself known, one in particular was of similar structure and in total is a third of the price, in fact I may join that one at a later date.

The question is where does all the high fees paid to the BNI actually get spent on it, do they have large corporate events held say twice a year that every member can go it? Surely the hotels/pubs that they use don't cost that much? If you have 30 members in one chapter and they all lets just say for easy numbers pay £1000 per year this includes their weekly amount that is expected, that's approx £30K for that one chapter and then on top of that new members that come along also, that's a lot of dosh that is going into the organisation less expenses off course. Then you have all the other chapters around the country, and there are alot of them.

I agree some people do get a lot from them especially if you can deligate and have a junior member go along instead of you, but when you are just starting out and its only you, time is precious so to go along every week sometimes just won't be feasable.

Like I say I am just curious to know how the financial side of the BNI works. I'm sure if it was cheaper then there would be more people interested in joining.

Thats just my take on it I'm sure others will have a different opinion.

PS I do get the referral bit and I think that's good, I just think its an awful lot of money and commitment of time.

VinceH · Expert

A very quick look gives me the impression that each BNI chapter is run as a business in its own right, so I think it might be a franchisee of BNI itself. If so, I suspect the monthly cost probably covers the function room and breakfast - £10pp/pw sounds plausible for that - and of the main membership fee, I bet a fairly large chunk of that is the franchise fee, which is probably calculated on the number of members.

On that basis, I suspect the answer to your question about there being other events is no: Unless BNI itself (rather than the franchisee/chapter) is organising them - and even if there were additional events, it seems likely to me that they would attract an attendance fee of their own, so wouldn't impact on the lovely profits coming in from the franchise fees.

Some interesting observations about BNI here: http://jeremylockyer.wordpress.com/2007/11/25/bni-%E2%80%93-all-gong-and-no-dinner/

(High membership turnover, very strict about attendance, etc - including an interesting point about average referrals.)

Amanda · Expert

The one he went to was £600 membership then £10 per week and they were told that if they didn't turn up for a few weeks then they would be chucked out, so commitment has to be there! So thats over £1K per year with all the fees etc.

He told me the same thing it was just like a cult, funny how you are thinking along the same lines Shaun. They indeed did have smaller businesses there which probably wouldn't benefit from it but they are happy to take their money.

ClawzCTR · Guru

I'll be the voice on the inside! ;) (providing I get accepted!)

Watch this space... lol

Amanda · Expert

Gary,

when are you joining? My colleague said it was very pressurable and he could see that if you don't get enough referrals he could see them cranking it up. The Chapter he went to they were expected after a while to take along 30 names/businesses, that they could persuade to come along etc and they were expected to actually bring some of them along at a later date to a meeting. I did say what if you didn't do this, as to be honest I wouldn't have 30 people that would want to approach, he said he wasn't sure what would happen. I'm not trying to put you off, like I say it works for some and not for others. Also by all accounts I think the cost varies depending on the area.

Good Luck.

Kama · Newbie

Hi Amanda, and everyone else commenting in this thread.
First I could not believe all the speculations being made when opening a new window and googling BNI is so easy, full of transparencies, lots of info.
Sad to see so much negative speculation.... Not professionalism.

(KEY THING TO KEEP IN MIND AM NOT TRYING TO BE RUDE TO ANYONE HERE

JUST SOME SHORT FACTS
Amanda you had a valid question where the money goes? In short its a business and all business have operational cost.
The difference of the expenses is profit and every, ok most businesses, tries to make as much profit as they can it's the reason most people are in business no problem there or is there for you?

We get too concerned sometimes with what money others make as a result of us and we miss the money we can make for ourselves during the process

Let's get to if you want $1 mil this year and it means the next person makes $10 mill why should any cares, you've met your goal... keep moving,, stop watching the next man's plate.

That been said I was a member of BNI, as such I refused to joined other network groups they all lacked the structures for success in business referrals. YES BNI IS THAT GOOD hee hee.

It's called BNI for Business Network International what does that say? Their business is all about your business, if you are not succeeding they can't, it's very simple. It's in their interest to ensure that their members do well. Now in the years when I was an active member all the people who weren't serious about joining,

(1) did not get the Motto - "Givers Gain" If you give referral then you'll get referral, it's based on relationship building. Your chapter members are your extended marketing force... BNI is word-of-mouth referral but with firm guidelines such that when I say I have a referral for you I already screened the potential client to make sure they indeed want to do business with you and then I brief you on them and they needs for you to close your sales... pretty sweet

BNI has good training some mandatory and some optional. For what you pay could you hire 30 or more people to do that for you annually? :) Most business employee don't even bring their workplace new business, yet they are paid and a month's wages would cover your annual BNI dues... it's all in the numbers haa haa

(2) Are not that serious about their business - complain meetings are too early, Really! too early to make money and too early to support your fellow members do the same? complain it's too strict... So it's not for everyone

Some chapter will encourage you to invite people to join depends on the size, best business you'll see happens when you have 30 plus members, under that is not the best scenario for all the members so they all know this. And because you invite them don't mean they will become members, they factor a bunch of things before accepting a member...

ATTENDANCE lol lol yes it's true you not attending meeting then you are out. Truth is if you are not present how would you know the and contribute to you members, it's your chapter now there is a TWIST you are permitted to have a substitute and there is a support system for that like you can use the substitute list, people from other chapters who willing want to represent you at your chapter in your absence, why? I can hear you asking, simple it's an opportunity for them to get business from your chapter if you don't have a member in their profession, I have substituted for just about every profession and I have gained connections, business from other chapters that at times it seems I am member of those... BNI is like a business passport for sure. It's like a marine to another marine automatically you trust that the next person wont let you fall as you both know what it takes to get there and the commitment and integrity and what separates you from other business people.

I have gone to lots of other network group and the reason am able to do well there is because of my referral training from BNI, I know how to effectively pitch, ask, follow up and build relationships as well as to weed out the undesirables etc.... Lots of so-called network group is nothing more than a social group, people looking to hang out and have a good time during the day have a few drinks and all that in the hopes they get business, no intentionality but you get a bunch of business cards to take home and they feel good given out a lot, I'd rather my BNI where all my members keep a few of my cards in their card caddie

how you like me now? hee hee

No coincidence they are the largest Networking organization in the world over 5,000 chapters and passes the most money period but its still not for everyone.

I grew a side business from my BNI interaction such that I develop and had a patent pending on a product and had gotten so far. BNI was no longer need to pass me business as I was supplying a different market, not retail but in a closed industry but for years after I still I remain friends with some of my members and I still pass business when ever I can and I continued to substitute for a while and now am currently looking to own a franchise....

Some see the money they can make from it I see how I can help more business people doing better and as of such I can rise to a level where I can even do more philanthropist things to better this planet and that is much easier done through some higher level connections.... movers and shakers

The fact is members can make more money than the franchise owner... I taught a newbie what to look for when looking for more business and in the next week she landed a gig for $800,000 USD yup that happened.

Let's all be more intelligent in our speaking, seek the facts in all instant. Don't make up things because your brain wants to... lol @ us human.
If we all could create what Ivan Minser has created and could reap the benefits as such we would not be having this conversation thread now would we?

If you own a business where you can't afford a few tanks of gas or a few business dinner to gain more business is even more reasons to suck it up and get into a chapter, learn and do fast. It will pay off.

See you all at the top

LOVE

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Good morning,

I think that you need to understand that this is not some evangelical site where the words of businesses looking for our money is taken as Gospel.

We question everything no matter how powerful an organisation believes itself to be (The reality being they are only as powerful as it's membership allows it to be). Just look at comments on this site in relation to professional bodies and software vendors, some of whom have changed practice based on discussions here.

I've just read through this quite old thread as some threads can get a little heated but in this instance I think that it is a perfectly acceptable appraisal based on peoples experiences that gave a very good unbiased view of what BNI offers people, warts and all.

The original discussion did not condemn BNI, it stated the simple fact that it is a business not a charity. It also stated some facts around why people join and what they get from being part of it.

Accusation that those participating in the original discussion lacked intelligence because they question matters seems to me the complete opposite to reality where surely those lacking intelligence are the sheep who follow blindly.

As for your meetings being too early comment and relating that to people not being serious about their businesses.... Does that not actually depend on the time that people get to finish work and go to bed in determining whether the time that you get up is not taking their business seriously?

Using the word "can" in the sentence that "The fact is members can make more money than the franchise owner" makes the sentence irrelevant. A pickup "can" go faster than a Ferrari if you drop it off a cliff! The line is comparing apples and oranges.

That said, you will find much more support here for networking (BNI as well as other groups) than you will for franchising on this site. I just thought that was a bit of a strange comparison to make.

Don't put people off BNI by trying to over defend it and always try to work to the premise of question everything, accept nothing, listen to legitimate criticism more than praise and always look to improve.

I look forwards to your reply,

kind regards,

Shaun.

Amanda · Expert

Well over to you Gary......................have you enjoyed your time at BNI and have you get sufficient business out of it?

Amanda · Expert

Well I can see what you are saying and indeed it does work for some.

I do belong to a cheaper networking group which isn't as rigid and suits me better, like I said it doesn't suit everyone, also its a confidence thing standing up in front of everyone telling them about your business, that in itself is daunting to some.

I have a situation at the moment where I know 2 people who are in BNI, at different chapters, one is doing remarkable well, and the other one, who on paper due to his business model should have done really well but in reality after a year he still hasn't had a return, and his is a really good chapter with a lot of members.

So you just can't tell if it will work or not. The cost for some people is a bit of a problem. I appreciate they are a business but it is a yearly subscription plus a cost on top of that each week, if you are starting our in business this might be a viable option if money is tight.

These are just my thoughts.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

I read the thread this morning and would have responded but had three clients to get to. Ive pondered this one once or twice today but my initial thoughts in many ways remain the same. Its an old thread so dont want to make too much of it, but felt the need to respond.

I find it a bit strange that someone's very first post on the site seems to criticise people for their non professionalism and then tries to preach to us.

Ive had some experience of BNI as an invitee and having spoken frankly to members of several chapters and it really isnt all its cracked up to be.

Valid points are made about the early hours start - the one I went to was in the middle of a city, meeting at the crack of dawn. Now dont get me wrong - I dont mind getting up early to get to work but really - before the public transport could get you there - how user friendly is that?

Also BNI expound the fact that you will only have one member from each profession at each meeting - clearly not true from the two chapters I went to - they bend those rules to get the numbers up. eg Three website developers - they tried to say they focussed on different elements within their businesses, hence why they could 'get away with' involving all three - but all three introduced themselves in a clone like way and their own businesscards and websites said almost identical things. There was also more than one example of this in the room!!

Kama wrote:
Hi Amanda, and everyone else commenting in this thread.
First I could not believe all the speculations being made when opening a new window and googling BNI is so easy, full of transparencies, lots of info. I dont think they are transparent enough - fees certainly not mentioned on their website, nor is the fact the business is run on a franchise type operation (unless I missed that bit) and nor is the fact that you are 'expelled' for the smallest infraction!
Sad to see so much negative speculation.... Not professionalism.

(KEY THING TO KEEP IN MIND AM NOT TRYING TO BE RUDE TO ANYONE HERE (doesnt seem that way and the smiley face doesnt make it so!) JUST SOME SHORT FACTS (why the need to 'shout' with capital letters?)
Amanda you had a valid question where the money goes? In short its a business and all business have operational cost.
The difference of the expenses is profit and every, ok most businesses, tries to make as much profit as they can it's the reason most people are in business no problem there or is there for you?

We get too concerned sometimes with what money others make as a result of us and we miss the money we can make for ourselves during the process
Let's get to if you want $1 mil this year and it means the next person makes $10 mill why should any cares, you've met your goal... keep moving,, stop watching the next man's plate.

That been said I was a member of BNI, does that mean you are no longer? wonder why that is. as such I refused to joined other network groups they all lacked the structures for success in business referrals. YES BNI IS THAT GOOD hee hee.

It's called BNI for Business Network International what does that say? That says absolutely nothing! Someone could call their business 'the best in the world' - doesnt make it so!! Their business is all about your business, if you are not succeeding they can't, it's very simple. It's in their interest to ensure that their members do well (disagree to some extent - they have a massive chunk of your money. They just close and set up elsewhere and encourage another batch of people of join) . Now in the years when I was an active member all the people who weren't serious about joining,

(1) did not get the Motto - "Givers Gain" If you give referral then you'll get referral, it's based on relationship building. I do question the 'referrals' - these people are being asked to vouch for other people - I was being vouched for by someone who I only just met 5 minutes before the meeting. So no way would I have trusted any of her other referrals, despite the fact that she just happened to pick a good one with me - more luck than judgement on her part!! Your chapter members are your extended marketing force... BNI is word-of-mouth referral but with firm guidelines such that when I say I have a referral for you I already screened the potential client to make sure they indeed want to do business with you and then I brief you on them and they needs for you to close your sales... pretty sweet BNI has good training some mandatory and some optional. For what you pay could you hire 30 or more people to do that for you annually? :) Most business employee don't even bring their workplace new business, yet they are paid and a month's wages would cover your annual BNI dues... it's all in the numbers haa haa

(2) Are not that serious about their business sweeping and frankly an outrageously insulting comment to make! (just for those who maybe didnt read what Kama put here ''people who werent serious about joining are not that serious about their business). You are making completely wrong assumptions about the (probably) 98% of people who use this site who are not and never will become members of BNI but who do really care about their business. Frankly I cant be bothered with the rest of the post, when the poster says things without thinking!
I for one would love to audit their claims with some of the numbers. The people I met who I spoke to very frankly outside of the meeting room all said they were worried about not getting their quota of referrals/new people and even attending the meetings, about being thrown out after having paid such vast amounts of money.
Anyway, BNI will work for some people, Amanda raised valid points, I would love to know how Gary got on with his application/membership and I dont mind a good debate, but dont appreciate the sweeping and insulting statements made by this poster. Oh but I dont mean to be rude
Good point about the Ferrari Shaun

Only edited as the internet dumped me off!

-- Edited by Cheshire on Wednesday 21st of January 2015 05:57:00 PM

VinceH · Expert

I read the thread this morning and would have responded but had three clients to get to.

I (re)read the thread this morning, and decided not to comment further because Kama's post has all the hallmarks of being a shill.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Good point Vince. My fella made the same point!

FoxAccountancyServices · Expert

Shit Jo... never seen you irked.. really funny! I read this yesterday morning too, but just thought I would sit back to see what Shaunybaby came back with, first. The word "field day with this one" came to mind. As always Shaun doesn't disappoint!

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

They used to say I ' took no prisoners' in my old Corporate days, although these days I just argue with the four walls so have lost the knack a little, which is why I gave up half way through (plus the fact that you cant reason with some peeps so whats the point!).

Reckon part of me was worrying about going to the dentist too, although I still mean every word!

Glad I brought some humour to your day.

Of course Shaun doesnt disappoint!

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Morning Michelle,

I'm now feeling like a complete amateur by comparison to Jo.

Then again, when I go off on one I think that the concensus is "Here we go again" where when Jo does it... Well, people are going to think that it must have been a very, very naughty poster indeed.

Makes you so proud doesn't it when a long standing site member savages their first.

Jo, 1000 brownie points and two (yep, thats right, two) get out of jail free cards.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Gosh and I thought I was being quite gentle!

Thank you Shauny - that makes 3 get of out jail free cards now.

I read 1000 brownies - as in chocolate brownies, you know cakes. I know wrong type of cakes!

VinceH · Expert

They used to say I ' took no prisoners' in my old Corporate days, although these days I just argue with the four walls so have lost the knack a little

There was a time when I'd rip apart things like Kama's post for the hell of it (I was once told, part way through a long, er, "discussion" with someone that it's not fair of me to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent).

These days, however, I'm much more mellow and laid back. I think I've been calmer ever since my blood pressure problem of a couple of years ago.

If I did want to respond to the post, though, I might have pointed out the nature of this group and its users - professional curiosity might on occasion lead us to pondering, discussing and sometimes even investigating the profitability of a company or organisation. (I know I do now and then - and if nothing else, it gives me an insight into how an organisation operates in whaterver field they're in, which could be handy later if I ever gain a client in that field.)

On the criticism of our professionalism, I'd perhaps counter with questioning whether Kama's first language is English - because his whole post demonstrates poor use of the language, and I feel that professionalism reflects in one's writing style, even when writing informally. (Obviously, allowances have to be made for conditions such as dyslexia - or the fact that English may not be the poster's first language.)

I can't remember what else he said, and I can't really be bothered to read it again. As I said, it looks and smells like a shill post, so there's no point.

(Cue another shill in about a year's time when the marketing bods at BNI do another trawl of the intertubes to seek out any negative commentary, and respond to it...)

-- Edited by VinceH on Thursday 22nd of January 2015 11:17:40 AM

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll · Senior Member

When I first saw the thread, I thought it said BKN!

And a new side to Jo. BKN warrior 2015? You've got my vote!

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

There is no such thing as the wrong sort of cakes.... Wonder if they would work with Green custard the way that the chocolate concrete used to at school?

But I digress. Remember that the get out of jail free cards are non transferrable so they would be no good to Dave no matter how many free courses or Brummie elecution lessons he tried to ply you with.

Hope that things went OK with the dentist... To stay on the safe side of dental work it's probably best that you send all of the cakes to me after making them... For the good of your teeth of course.... I'm sure that imminently John will also be on here offering to sacrifice his own dental health purely for the good of yours.

We are such heroes...

Oops, too late. morning John... Sorry, no cakes here ... move along.

Yep, I'm all for a new BKN warrior of the year award... So long as the winner has to wear Kate Bushes kit from the Babooshka video... Oh God, hope that I don't win that one now!

-- Edited by Shamus on Thursday 22nd of January 2015 11:36:07 AM

Amanda · Expert

Well I have obviously opened a can of worms with my original post.

But Kama still hasn't answered the question! Where does all the money go???? Whose pockets are it lining, this is the bit they need to be more transparent about, this is what is p*****g people off!

I appreciate that you have to pay for the venue/breakfast but this isn't expensive to warrant £10/wk PLUS a large yearly subscription, so in reality the fat cats at the top get the cream while you turn up every flippin week hoping to get a decent referral.

Like I say it works for some but not a lot of others, they won't be getting my hard earned cash that's for sure. I have been invited to every chapter in our area and I still say a big fat NO! In my area there are other groups that have started up and are run independently by small business people, they are not expensive to join and charges normally £10 for breakfast, some of these are fortnightly and some monthly. There are so many X-BNI people at them its untrue, and they have all said the same about BNI, so not everyone can be wrong. I think in time,certainly in my area, there will be a few more independent groups starting up which are equally as good and a fraction of the price, also its not frowned upon if you are on holiday or got work comittments that you can't make a meeting. Also they are not hell bent on referrals! Referrals are always good but only if they are good ones, the luke warm ones that are not really referrals are a total waste of time chasing and following, I only want the red hot ones. In BNI you have a lot of referrals but in realality they are NOT really referrals people feel compelled to give them! You may as well take in the yellow pages with you and tear a page out and give it to a person and say its a referral!

I know someone in banking who use to go and went for 5 years, always turned up, got a sub when he was on holiday and took it very seriously, but even he has left and thinks its a load of s***, they treated him very badly towards the end as he had moved areas and couldn't always make it, so when his membership was due up he told them where to poke it!

BTW well done Joanne, love it!!!! Remind me not to cross you!

Its funny how the accountants/bookkeepers don't always belong to BNI, is that because we are all too bloody tight?............

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

VinceH wrote:
They used to say I ' took no prisoners' in my old Corporate days, although these days I just argue with the four walls so have lost the knack a little
There was a time when I'd rip apart things like Kama's post for the hell of it (I was once told, part way through a long, er, "discussion" with someone that it's not fair of me to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent). So very true Vince
These days, however, I'm much more mellow and laid back. I think I've been calmer ever since my blood pressure problem of a couple of years ago. Now you come to mention it, my blood pressure is exactly where is should be, unlike in my old Corporate days. I do tend to choose my fights better these days, but that was clearly a momentary lapse!
If I did want to respond to the post, though, I might have pointed out the nature of this group and its users - professional curiosity might on occasion lead us to pondering, discussing and sometimes even investigating the profitability of a company or organisation. (I know I do now and then - and if nothing else, it gives me an insight into how an organisation operates in whaterver field they're in, which could be handy later if I ever gain a client in that field.)
On the criticism of our professionalism, I'd perhaps counter with questioning whether Kama's first language is English - because his whole post demonstrates poor use of the language, and I feel that professionalism reflects in one's writing style, even when writing informally. (Obviously, allowances have to be made for conditions such as dyslexia - or the fact that English may not be the poster's first language. Agree totally as deal with people on a daily basis whose English is not their first language as Im dealing with countries all over the world for a couple of clients )
I can't remember what else he said, and I can't really be bothered to read it again. As I said, it looks and smells like a shill post, so there's no point.
(Cue another shill in about a year's time when the marketing bods at BNI do another trawl of the intertubes to seek out any negative commentary, and respond to it...) Very likely, especially given this one has disappeared without trace since posting!

-- Edited by VinceH on Thursday 22nd of January 2015 11:17:40 AM

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll wrote:
When I first saw the thread, I thought it said BKN! Oh no!!!!! I thought this site was free, lol
And a new side to Jo. BKN warrior 2015? You've got my vote! Thank you kind sir

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Shamus wrote:
There is no such thing as the wrong sort of cakes.... Wonder if they would work with Green custard the way that the chocolate concrete used to at school?

But I digress. Remember that the get out of jail free cards are non transferrable so they would be no good to Dave no matter how many free courses or Brummie elecution lessons he tried to ply you with. Fallen out with Dave, hes not talking to me!

Hope that things went OK with the dentist... To stay on the safe side of dental work it's probably best that you send all of the cakes to me after making them... For the good of your teeth of course.... I'm sure that imminently John will also be on here offering to sacrifice his own dental health purely for the good of yours.
We are such heroes...

Oops, too late. morning John... Sorry, no cakes here ... move along.
Yep, I'm all for a new BKN warrior of the year award... So long as the winner has to wear Kate Bushes kit from the Babooshka video... Oh God, hope that I don't win that one now! Oh at first I thought I had actually won an award, was just going to get my dance shoes out, but I might pay to see you in that outfit! Would be funny!

-- Edited by Shamus on Thursday 22nd of January 2015 11:36:07 AM

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Well said Amanda!! Maybe we should think about setting up an ex BNI networking programme - might get the best out of networking as they all know how not to do it. Thank you for the 'well done' but no need to fear as Ive never seen anything youve said requiring me to get my inner Rotweiller out!

-- Edited by Cheshire on Thursday 22nd of January 2015 12:00:41 PM

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll · Senior Member

Shamus wrote:

Oops, too late. morning John... Sorry, no cakes here ... move along.
Morning Shaun, someone mentioned brownies, and I thought..................oh well!
Yep, I'm all for a new BKN warrior of the year award... So long as the winner has to wear Kate Bushes kit from the Babooshka video... Oh God, hope that I don't win that one now!
Shaun, I'm supposed to be working, not looking at Kate Bush's warrior outfit. Still, it livens up a dull morning!!

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll · Senior Member

Amanda wrote:
Well I have obviously opened a can of worms with my original post.

But Kama still hasn't answered the question! Where does all the money go???? Whose pockets are it lining, this is the bit they need to be more transparent about, this is what is p*****g people off!

I thought he'd answered that in the opening of his diatribe.

"Amanda you had a valid question where the money goes? In short its a business and all business have operational cost.

The difference of the expenses is profit and every, ok most businesses, tries to make as much profit as they can it's the reason most people are in business no problem there or is there for you?

Each chapter is a franchise from what I can gather, and the owner of the chapter gets all the profit. No doubt, as in other franchises, the overall hq gets franchise fees from each chapter and makes a hellova lot of money.

VinceH · Expert

I thought he'd answered that in the opening of his diatribe.

"Amanda you had a valid question where the money goes? In short its a business and all business have operational cost.

Yeah, but he answered it a long time after this post, which can be found a little further up in this very thread. (You know, the post in which I said I'd done a little searching on the subject - albeit only quickly - which Kama completely ignored when he suggested we Google the subject!)

The blog post I mentioned is well worth a read, as well, if anyone didn't at the time. Particularly interesting are the numbers mentioned fairly early on - the anticipated time for other members to get to know you and your business, and the average loss of members.

Amanda · Expert

Hi John,

No I don't have a problem with the profit side of things, but lets face it there is a lot of profit on the table, and only the fat cats at the top are capitalising on the profits while poor Joe Bloggs who has just joined because they have sucked him in on the promise of lots of referrals, has to hope he will make his money back as he really couldn't afford to join in the first place and borrowed the money of of a friend/relative so he could join. This is where I think it is wrong. I think the membership price should be less to encourage more businesses. Like I say in our area, independent ones with a small joining fee plus the £10 per visit (monthly or fortnightly), are starting to do really well and I don't personally see a future for BNI in our area. The numbers are dwindling fast!

In fact I know someone who goes to 4N networking and one of the groups he goes to has recently only had 6 people at the meeting, he has now ditched that one as 4N you can go to as many as you like in your area.

You just have to be picky and choose wisely!

Regarding the profit John, if you want a bathroom fitted you know that the plumber is going to make a profit out of you, so that's fine as you have engaged his services so you at the beginning it will cost you X amount, but with BNI they suck small businesses in and do the hard sell, and then hit you with the very large joining fee, then tell you about the £10/week, now there are some that won't actually realise how much in one year that they have spent and that is because they aren't number orientated, but I bet if you tell some of the people how much they have actually paid over the course of a year, then they would be horrified and probably say that they wouldn't renew their membership. I do agree that others have got lots of business out of it.

At the end of the day I appreciate the business model is to make as much money as possible out of its members, but in reality they don't have to be as expensive as what they are. Like I say cheaper and equally as good a groups are now springing up all over the place and are really good, so at last BNI has competition!

Vince - you were typing at the same time as me. I appreciate that as a customer of BNI you are investing you time and meeting new contacts, but as there are groups that do exactly the same for far less money. I expect BNI hate it that people are getting savy to these groups and are actually setting up there own. I know one very successful business group, fraction of the price and was set up by 2 disillusioned BNI members. That kind of says it all now don't you think?............

-- Edited by Amanda on Thursday 22nd of January 2015 01:47:20 PM

VinceH · Expert

Vince - you were typing at the same time as me. I appreciate that as a customer of BNI you are investing you time and meeting new contacts, but

That sounds worryingly like you're reading my comments as being pro-BNI (and assuming the blog post I linked to is the same)! They are anything but! I very much see BNI as being very cult-like - both in the way they want members to grow the organisation itself and the very strict rules about attendance and referrals, and because (ultimately) money from the members is lining the pockets of those at the top; Misner (and co).

The only thing which counters the cult-like nature is the apparent ease with which someone can be kicked out - a true cult wants to ensure people never leave!

Another interesting read - and this time, quite entertaining.

Amanda · Expert

No sorry Vince I wasn't implying your were a customer of there's at all, I was meaning that if you or I or someone else were a member etc. Didn't word that one particuarly well!

Well they are not a true cult, as you say they will kick you out quickly and not even refund any of your membership. Mind you then they can seek and source another new member from the same sector and get another lot of membership fees!

Sorry Vince didn't mean to offend you!

Amanda · Expert

Good Reading Vince seems I am not the only one who thinks that!

Comical really.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

VinceH wrote:
Another interesting read - and this time, quite entertaining.

Hilarious, especially if youve been to a BNI meeting! biggrin

RobH · Expert

Well I was up this morning at 5.30 in order to go to my BNI meeting. It is a new chapter being formed, so we haven't actually launched yet, but having said that I have picked up business. I'm sure that some chapters are better than others but that really depends on the members. I have picked up a few referrals from other members (but at the moment there are only 8 others) and I have picked up jobs from 3 visitors who did not join us and last week I had a referral from one of those visitors. In total the work will be worth around £5k. The thing is to make sure you contribute and this doesn't have to be by giving referrals, though ultimately that is the main contribution, but by inviting visitors and giving them a chance to see if it a good fit for them (most won't want to come and most that do visit will not join, but that's fine we don't put any pressure on them, they either see the benefits or they don't think it is right for them).

The cost to me is around £1k per year but once we are properly launched I am hoping for at least £25k of new business per year, so a good return.

The franchisor in my area (Birmingham & Coventry) is a really nice guy, makes no bones about it being a business. Half the money pays the hotel where we meet, the rest goes to BNI. Not sure what commissions and other charges the franchisor pays out but I would be surprised if he took more than £300 net per member (probably less). Of course if there are an average of 25 members and he has say 15 chapters then that's a nice £112.5k ish, but this pure conjecture on my part.

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll · Senior Member

Amanda wrote:
Hi John,

No I don't have a problem with the profit side of things, but lets face it there is a lot of profit on the table, and only the fat cats at the top are capitalising on the profits while poor Joe Bloggs who has just joined because they have sucked him in on the promise of lots of referrals, has to hope he will make his money back as he really couldn't afford to join in the first place and borrowed the money of of a friend/relative so he could join. This is where I think it is wrong. I think the membership price should be less to encourage more businesses. Like I say in our area, independent ones with a small joining fee plus the £10 per visit (monthly or fortnightly), are starting to do really well and I don't personally see a future for BNI in our area. The numbers are dwindling fast!

I was in no way defending their action, I read Kama's post has "yeah, we're in in to make money, and to screw the little guy as much as possible, we call it profit"

As you rightly say, people will come in and undercut. If the charges are too high in the first place they will grab some market share, and rightly so in my opinion.

Amanda · Expert

Well Rob, I wouldn't have put you down for a member, even though you told me a few years ago to go out and network.

In our area there are so many independent groups popping up that are surprisingly good and do they same thing. The best one or so I've been told (I can't join as there is already a bookkeeper there), is an independent one which was started by 2 EX BNI members, similar structure but no where near the pressure, which I have been told suits everyone. Also they are all transparent about how much money the group has brought them in, which I think could be a good thing.

Another independent group which keep trying to get me to join, unfortunately I can't do this one due to work commitments, a colleague of mine has netted a cool £60K out of it. He is not in the same field as us and his business is very successful there, but they are not hell bent on referrals, they would rather have quality over quantity so they never push or bollock you if you don't have one. I have subbed at this one before.

Interesting topic this one!

Edit:- Rob that's a lot of money the franchisee can potentially make even if that's a rough guess at what could be possibly be earnt. Surely they don't need a job if they own the franchise for several chapters in an area? Or is it a job in itself?

-- Edited by Amanda on Thursday 22nd of January 2015 04:29:22 PM

-- Edited by Amanda on Thursday 22nd of January 2015 04:47:20 PM

-- Edited by Amanda on Thursday 22nd of January 2015 04:48:14 PM

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

RobH wrote:
It is a new chapter being formed, so we haven't actually launched yet, but having said that I have picked up business.
The thing is to make sure you contribute and this doesn't have to be by giving referrals, though ultimately that is the main contribution, but by inviting visitors and giving them a chance to see if it a good fit for them (most won't want to come and most that do visit will not join, but that's fine we don't put any pressure on them, they either see the benefits or they don't think it is right for them).

Hi Rob

I wouldnt have had you down as a member, but if you have done well out of it so far then good on and long may this continue.

Can I just clarify the bits in bold, by asking how long you have been a member, because the ones I went to (in the blurb of the meeting and the people I spoke to afterwards (members and a couple of ex members, the latter visiting another BNI Chapter to see what it was like), all said you have to go with three referrals each week ( or failing that a minimum each month - cant recall the figure but not one I felt was achievable). Also that if you didnt give the referrals that was one reason for rapid expulsion!

RobH · Expert

I really like going, it is very structured but I prefer that to going to say a Chamber of Commerce event where it is open networking the whole time. The structure is very rigid and there are parts I am less keen on but it is the very structure that makes it work (if 'working' means getting business in).

There are three commitments which are you come every week, you come on time and you make a positive contribution. These commitments are definitely not for every one, the early start rules some people out with child care issues etc. Jo, I've never heard of there being a 'three referrals rule', we are all reasonably laid back at our group with a lot of banter, however for members to be successful they need to be making some kind of effort because if you do nothing then there is no real incentive for other members to put themselves out on your behalf. If you have a group with say 30 plus members it is very easy to get referrals because you just tune into things like your aunt saying her heating is on the blink (we have a great plumber at our group), or your friend's daughter is about to take driving lessons (I know a good driving instructor), the more diverse the better. Of course you are only going to make the introductions once you have formed some kind of relationship with the other members and have got to know, like and trust them which is why the weekly meetings are important. I think bringing a visitor is as good a contribution as a referral and really isn't that difficult to do with a little application. I'm told that 25% of referrals come from visitors who don't actually join and that seems to be about right from my experience.

We started our pre-launch group around 7 months ago and it has been a hard slog to get to where we are but it looks like another 3 people will be joining this week and so we look to launch properly by March at the latest I would say.

Amanda, I would say being a franchisor for the region is a full time job but I think most have other entrepreneurial outlets. I'm not sure how many chapters are in the average region but I would guess around 15 so that's quite a bit of organising but of course well worth it.

My advice would be for those who haven't visited a chapter before then go with an open mind. If someone tries to hard sell you then to me it would seem they are a bit desperate and maybe it isn't a great group but if you feel comfortable and think it might work chat with some of the other members away from the meeting to guage an impression and see who you feel you could work with, e.g. if there is an accountant in the group would (s)he be happy to pass work your way or do they have a bookkeeping side. Some people are going to hate BNI but some will think it sits right with their personality and see the potential. £1000 seems a lot but half of that is spread over the year. have a think what your average client is worth to you, maybe £500 per year, then you need two referrals to break even and of course the life time of those clients may be ten years.

If my group goes horribly wrong I'll definitely report back!

VinceH · Expert

I wasn't implying your were a customer of there's at all

I didn't think you were implying it (so no offence was taken) - I thought you had inferred it.

I've never been to a BNI meeting, but I've been invited a couple of times (and obviously declined - I'm far too antisocial for such things). I had the basic meeting ritual sorry, structure explained to me once after declining, presumably because the person trying to get me to go believed telling me how it worked would change my mind.

RobH · Expert

I think part of the problem with BNI is that as members we are responsible for growing the chapter (which benefits everyone involved) but you can get the over zealous inviting people. I'll invite people and if they are not interested that's fine, I'm not going to push it as that will turn them off me as an accountant/human being and it makes you look desperate. I certainly wouldn't have joined under those circumstances even if I quite liked the idea.

Amanda · Expert

Lets us know how you get on in the coming months Rob, I would be interested to hear.

I do agree some BNI members seem very desperate, I think this just depends on the Chapter and how big it is, also it scores you brownie points if you take along a visitor.

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll · Senior Member

RobH wrote:
I think part of the problem with BNI is that as members we are responsible for growing the chapter (which benefits everyone involved) but you can get the over zealous inviting people. I'll invite people and if they are not interested that's fine, I'm not going to push it as that will turn them off me as an accountant/human being and it makes you look desperate. I certainly wouldn't have joined under those circumstances even if I quite liked the idea.

Adopting your sort of approach is a good one, and it doesn't strike me as an over zealous chapter. But if there is an emphasis on you having to get a set amount of referrals and having to attend middle of the night meetings (I'm rarely up before 8 am I can easily see how one could become over zealous, and how quickly one could become disillusioned if you weren't meeting expectations.

RobH · Expert

I'll keep you updated Amanda.

John, unfortunately the meetings are at 6.30, the idea being that you get finished at 8.30 (most people stay later for more networking) so you can get into work at a reasonable time. This is one of the commitments you make if you wish to be a member and why it isn't suitable for everyone. Like I said before if it is clear a member is trying to make things work, i.e trying to bring visitors, referals etc but is struggling then the other members will help. There is also free training on doing all this. However if a member is just turning up without putting any effort into it and just has the idea that it he has paid his membership so he should be getting a good referral every week then it isn't going to work and the other members will just see him as taking up someone else's seat who might contribute. People at out chapter are under no illusions that this is not a social event it is about people wanting to seriously grow their business but that takes effort. For me an early start once a week, trying to help my fellow members and the membership fee in return for £25k+ of repeat business every year (The average in our region is £35k per year per member) is worthwhile. Hopefully I'm not deluding myself!

I've probably made the meetings sound very dry but they are great fun, loads of micky taking and daft stuff but underlined with the business growth ethos.

VinceH · Expert

Just a thought, but rather than have a meeting time at stupid o'clock in the morning so that it's not going to interfere with normal working hours, why not have it at sensible o'clock in the evening?

Pick a suitable pub, a reasonably quiet day of the week, and suddenly the meetings become a whole lot more appealing - not just for members, but also visitors.

sridhga · Newbie

BNI is certainly a for-profit organisation. The differential fees between the two groups that you had referred to, is the difference that they are calculating. The base fee is the lower one that you mentioned. The other one calculated all annual costs including breakfast and training programs for one year. I am a BNI member and I like BNI. My BNI chapter collects the breakfast fee once a month. There are about 57 members in my chapter. I am a chartered accountant and am grouped as thus in the BNI category. There are no other accountants in my chapter even with alternate designations like Tax consultants etc. BNI works for me because I worked in marketing in New York years ago and BNI is similiar in its marketing style. Yes I agree that BNI is a cult. Either you change and become a part of it and give it lot of importance in your life and you love it or you get ejected out. I hope I answered your questions. My english may not sound like that of yours since it is not my 1st language.

Rlk · Newbie

I realize this post is old, but I wanted to weigh in - in case someone else reads this and doesn't understand what BNI is and what it can and can not do.

I am a BNI member in Massachusetts. I have been a member for a little over a year. Do I know how much money goes where - of course not - it isn't any of my business. This is a business for profit, it is not a pyramid scheme. Businesses make decision on what their clients can pay and charge accordingly. I will hopefully keep this is some order and it will make sense. I do want to say you will get out of the BNI as much as you put in. As scary as it is, their formula and structure works - if you follow it. Does it feel like a cult, sometimes but it one that I do like being part of. No I have not had the koolaid.

At this time, there are Franchise Owners and each franchise owner has a certain region/county/state depending what they buy. My chapter is part of the Middlesex MA franchise. This franchise owner also owns Boston MA (Essex, Suffolk and Norfolk counties) Middlesex County and Worcester County. Under the owner there are 3 or 4 Regional Admins that service all her counties, then there is an area director for each of her counties covering all the chapters and under the area director there are Director-consultants who are responsible for servicing 4-5 chapters. All of the above are paid positions. Then they have ambassador's or Assist Director Consultants that is a volunteer position and you assist a Director with 1-2 of the chapters so they are not spread too thin. This is also a way to work up to being a Director. Of course BNI Headquarters receives their franchise fees.

Is the BNI for everyone - NO. You are invited twice to come in and participate in a meeting to see if you think it is a right fit for you. You are not expected to make a decision without observing and participating. Some chapters are better than others of course or the personal dynamics, energy may not be for the chapter you visited. BNI encourages you to visit different chapters so you are making an educated decision. When you join, you will attend MSP (member success program) this is where they teach you the structure of a BNI meeting, how to write and present your 45 or 60 second presentation (commercial), how to create a 10 minute presentation and answer general questions. Then they have advanced MSP and that dives deeper on how to create specific pin pointed 45-60 second and 10 minute presentations. How to network more effectively. Each chapter has a leadership team made up of the President, Vice President, Treasurer/Secretary, membership committee and visitor hosts. These roles are swapped out yearly with different members. The president makes sure the meetings run within the BNI structure, the Vice President tracks activity in the chapter and the treasure secretary is responsible for collecting quarterly dues, announcing 10 min speakers, filing applications and scheduling speakers. There is a membership committee who will call references when an application is submitted, discuss issues that may arise in the group, basically keep things running smoothly. Then there are visitor hosts and those hosts greet the visitors and make them feel welcome and they are responsible for the setup and take down of the meeting room. All members are expected to participate in one of the leadership roles. - but it shows others that you are proactive, involved and you learn a lot.

You're allowed 6 absences on a rolling 6 months. 3 sub and 3 without a sub. Why do they require members to come weekly - it shows commitment and adds to your credibility. It is how folks conduct themselves that helps build a relationship with each other to a point that you can refer in heart beat. The other ways you bond with your fellow members is through 1 to 1 and getting there early and networking. The quarterly dues goes to the paying for the meeting room, coffee each Thursday and incidentals. The rest of the money is in a bank account for the chapter to use. It could be setting up a special visitor night at a restaurant, a networking after hours event for the chapter members, equipment the chapter may need etc. It does not go to the franchise owner.

Why do I like the structure. Everyone is held at the same standard. You are suppose to be the best in the game within their profession. I do watch who is absent a lot. I don't think that they don't care about their business, but I do start to feel they do not have an investment in the chapter or other members. We need to be able to rely on each other. If I know it is legit - wife having a baby, baby sick, you're sick, accident but that is why they have those absences so you can attend to these matters. You are not suppose to sell to other members you are suppose to teach them about your business and what type of referrals will help you grow your business. The side positive - I use many of the members for my own life. The home and auto agent saved me $500 on my auto premium and I had a surcharge from an accident and he also saved $300 a year off my commercial insurance for the business. We build relationship and trust and it is natural to try and help each other. We try to try each others services so we know how we are treated, we know how our referral will be treated. I have many members that are part of our fitness studio. Have I gotten any outside referrals, a few, but it takes about a year to build relationships, so I am seeing an uptick in outside referrals. I also have moved past my comfort stage. I was not great at public speaking or networking. Now I can stand up in a crowd of people and speak, I know how to network better when I attend non BNI meetings. I am a better person from being a member. I also know that anytime I am having a hard time or discouraged I have 34 other members I can reach out to uplift or ask for advise. I am only starting to give referrals, the first year is year is hard, you are learning. Our chapter stresses that if it is a lead, send the member an email with a heads up and only time you submit a referral is when it you actually speak with the referral and they said have them call me. I have received leads that were submitted as referrals - but that happens. Do I agree with everything that goes on in my chapter....nope...but it isn't my business to run. I am participating in their business.

I did see someone say that there is free cheaper options. Well, not really. I am a member of the chamber of commerce and on the board. The networking events are just that you selling yourself and there may be 10 other fitness studios that I am up against. At the BNI as long as you build relationships you will have folks selling your service. For example, just this week I have a client who was telling me that they are buying a house in a few months. They do not have a realtor, banker, attorney or insurance agent. They are new to the area and do know know anyone. Well I provided her with my preferred vendor list and she is so excited that she has a point to start with hoping she chooses well. They will all get business from her and it was someone that chances of them meeting her were slim. I also had a referral I gave the local organizer. He was in visiting one the trainers and he was telling me he need to hire someone to clean his office and organize. The organizer of the group will be meeting him next week. Never would their worlds collide because they are not in the same circle and he would not know what to have looked for someone like her. That is givers gain. I am not worried about what I am getting, I am working to find my fellow members business.

Since this is a bookkeeping site - my friend is a bookkeeper. She came with me when I visited the BNI chapter. She joined on the same day as I did and most of the chapter members are using her for the books and she has received almost a dozen new clients from referrals. She said none of these people she would of crossed because the nature of the business, location and for the fact that most want a referral rather than looking at ads. The BNI is not for everyone. If you can't go in with an open mind, follow the structure etc then don't waste your money. Also look at the chapter. Depending upon your business some do better with a chapter located in a city in the financial district while others would not do well. When I went to my BNI, I looked at the professions that were in this chapter and tried to determine if they would move in the same circle as my fitness clients.

Sorry for the rambling and if some does not make sense. This is my opinion based off of my experience.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Oh gawd, another evangelical American lemming who can't spell and uses terrible English. 'off of' (sic) Just one example. What the hell is that?

This is a UK site for UK bookkeepers, not for net nil contributors spinning their cult like yarns in a feeble attempt to persuade people to join the other highly policed spin off cults and part with a massive wedge of their cash, as well as providing a constant drip feed of other lemmings to part with their cash.

The insidious common theme, apart from the usual how a BNI meeting works, is that anyone not turning up for the odd week (you mentioned) or not joining in the first place (the previous muppet mentioned) does not care about their business!!!!!! Well clearly by that argument most on here don't give a sh*te about theirs, so not only do you insult the intelligence of our members by spouting that diatribe in the first instance but you also insult members integrity, professionalism, dedication, work ethic, enthusiasm and passion for their businesses.

Stick to spouting on an American site.

As one of my fellow professionals said the other day. WTF. JO. Ok she added a bit that I wouldn't, although I might be tempted in this case.

oops, Shaun, reckon I might have to cash in.

-- Edited by Cheshire on Sunday 2nd of July 2017 11:35:06 AM