Just heard the news...

Well, I don't care about anyone elses views of her but for me she was the best post war prime minister that this country has had.

A very sad day for British politics and the passing of someone who made a real difference to a country that was previously being run into the ground by the unions.

She will be sadly missed.

Shaun.

I don't want to get bogged down in the politics and I am first to admit that she did not get everything right and some things that she did get right were not implemented properly.

But, the policies of the early Thatcher administration fundamentally changed the way that the country worked and was a much needed response to what I believe was the countries darkest hour where back in 1979 a union led labour Government had created an environment of rolling blackouts, rubbish piled high in thre streets, mass unemployment (that was not a conservative invention), three day weeks...

What the Thatcher administration was attempting to do was bold and under any lesser leader it would have failed but Baroness Thatcher was a strong voice for the country both at home and on the world stage.

Would that we had such strong politicians in any of the major parties today.

Whether one agreed with her or disagreed there was no getting away from the fact that unlike others she was a leader with a vision who genuinely cared about the countries position in the world.

Now we have a weak ineffectual hug a hoodie brigade controlled by masters of spin.

The passing of Baroness Thatcher is not just the passing of a great prime minister but the passing of a different form of politics where the politicians represented their country rather than merely their potential on the lecture circuit and for lucrative non executive directorships when they eventually lose office.

Definitely a black tie day for British politics today.

I think the Sun newspaper has sumed it up quite well

Headlines:-

'She Changed Britain forever'  That is so very true.

Peasie wrote:

---

Disappointed to see Glasgow City Council allowing a party to take place in George Square despite earlier saying it shouldn't take place. Some of those attending probably weren't even born when she was in power. Probably the same people that were at the same location at the weekend. (They are known to have sympathy for the 1981 Slimmer of the Year who Maggie didn't particularly care for).

---

 I think is what bugs me. I was barely old enough to understand her policies so I can't really judge her, however like you say a lot of people moaning about her don't know why they are, they just seem to be jumping on the band wagon.

Hi

Agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments offered here.

Many, many of the friends that I had at school (left in 1982) have all gone on to run and be successful (to varying degrees) our own businesses and to me this was achieved by the spirit of entrepreneurship encourage by Margaret Thatcher and her government.

RIP Mrs T

Mark

Mmm, quoting Frankie Boyle on Scotland is like quoting Bernhard Manning on race relations. Like the newpapers (see later) Boyle plays to his audience. He's a very clever man and I sometimes like his sense of humour but not exactly where I would look for unbiased opinions. lol.

To manipulate a quote from the usual suspects.

The neatest trick that the labour party ever played was convincing the world that problems of the 1980's lay on the Conservatives doorstep.

The early years of the Thatcher administration were like being given a used car that proved to have been thrashed to hell and back and then when it doesn't work you as the new owners are the ones to blame.

Like the Brown Administration much later, the labour Government ousted in 1979 had broken the country and it was only by a root and branch change that the country was pulled back from the edge of the abyss.

That said, whilst intentions were good implementation was not always well planned and site of the tree's was at times lost for the vision of the forest that was being planted.

I do not think that all of her advisors were the best and as with Ceasar many, even those she considered close, turned on her for their own ends.

Under the Thatcher administration we saw the fall of the unions and the rise of the small limited company. People's entrepeneurial spirit was in policy at least encouraged although the banks funding of such enterprise did not follow with the same enthusiasm.

And come 1997 what was the first thing that labour did? Bring in IR35 to break that in an attempt to return to a way of doing things that in reality died in the 1960's.

I was brought up in a Scottish community in the Midlands and I lived and worked in Scotland for many years and know that the Scots (like the English) are being manipulated by the media. Just read any paper then go over the border and read the same paper on the same day and see how the same stories are told from two completely different perspectives.

I cannot remember the exact figures now but there was one where, I think that it was the daily / Scottish Mail, that was talking about Scotish Oil revenue and complaining about the amount of money going South to Westminster. At least that was on the Scottish version of the paper. In the English version it was talking about for every penny going South six were going North to prop up an unsustainable spending commitment.

Each may have been factually correct but the two stories were complete opposits and was pandering to the readership by missing out facts that would not have gone down well with the different readerships.

It really is a case that telling the people what they want to hear sells newspapers. And of course, if you say it enough for long enough people take the half truths as the full story. And it could be said that the half truths become the truth in that peoples stances create policy.

The above said, my Father who was a mining engineer all of his life is of the same mind as yourself Kris and when we get together neither of us will budge in our opinions as both of us are armed with facts about what the conservatives did for / to the country.

I will agree with him that the closing of the pits seemed more down to a vendetta against the then power of the NUM than making any financial sense and I know that figures were manipulated by those reporting to Government to justify to very dubious closures on the back of which pits were closed and the shafts bulldozed within weeks to prevent it being financially viable to reopen them.

As with all things, I think that we are all products of our environment and in my case I made a lot of money under conservative Governments due to my entrepeneurial approach but I struggle under labour ones for the same reason.

I think that Mark summed up the legacy of the Thatcher Government perfectly in that those leaving school at that time (I left in 79) who had the aptitude to do something with their lives were able to start their own businesses in an enviroment that encouraged the entrepeneur and that change to the country is down to the Thatcher administration.

Unfortunately, if you were not there in 79 you cannot realise how broken the country actually was to warrant the drastic changes that had to be made and I for one am very gratful that the country had Margaret Thatcher when it did.

Shaun.

The mail online head lines is all about Baroness Thatcher and the hatred for her, but what I can't understand is they are just young kids of today holding up posters and unless their parents have drummed something into them they won't even know who the hell she was! It really makes my blood boil to see this, because whether you loved or loathed her people should show respect as her family have lost a Mum, Auntie etc and those family members will want to morn. No wonder her 2 children want to morn abroad and not come back to England until the funeral.

Wow Kris, that must have been worrying for your dad, I suppose in those days they didn't have as much DNA testing and all that stuff as today. I always remember that time as it seemed that every news headline there was another one. It was scary at the time, also unlike today it was black and white TV and only 3 channels! The kids have it easy today with sky and freeview boxes!

I some how think this thread could be a long one as its Politics and so many divided opinions.  

 

-- Edited by Amanda on Tuesday 9th of April 2013 11:45:11 PM

TRAINING LINK wrote:

---

And who was it that allowed working class people the chance to buy their council home with heavily reduced discounts on the value of the home

-- Edited by TRAINING LINK on Tuesday 9th of April 2013 08:13:47 PM

---

Interesting comment, Dave.  Though I don't think this was always about allowing people on the property ladder and more about getting local governments to pay back debts to central government quicker.  Local governments weren't able to plough the money from council house sales back into building new homes.  In fact this policy prevented council house building programs and has led us to where we are today, a real lack of affordable social housing for those who can't get their foot on the property ladder. 

I agree that the pits may have had to lessen production, but we now have 300 years of good coal under parts of ayrshire and at the same time we're importing lesser quality coal to the area.  That really can't be right.  The unions helped her to hammer the nail into their coffins though, and were their own worst enemies.

Kris

Morning Kris

Thats the beauty of politics inasmuch as we all have different views and that is the reason why my comment said about running a country like the uk being an impossible job regardless of which party is in Government, I watched the Thatcher era as a youngster through to young adult and yes my opinion from then is somewhat different to what it is today, there are those who believe that privatisation was a bad thing such as British Gas being sold off to the French, British telecommunications, NHS and the like. Britain is a free state and for me there lies the biggest problem. I agree that housing is a problem today and another incentive is around to make mortgages easier to get, we had the spend spend spend era where credit was easy to get and the inevitable happened and now we are having to see and witness Banks in trouble and looking for bail outs and we could argue that this is a product of the 80s. The country at the time needed reform and Thatcher did what she thought was right at the time, I am not saying that everyone benefited from the policies of the time but there are a lot of people who think in that era we never had it so good.

Thatcher like every Prime Minister before and after had and has made mistakes, but on the whole and in my personal opinion she did not do a bad job.

How hold was you Kris when your Pa got arrested for the ripper enquiry? That must have been frightening for you?

Dave

You're right Amanda, love or loath someone its wrong to take pleasure in someones death. Unfortunately, Dave, we're now paying for the privatisation started in the 80's. I think it was the start of the breakdown of the community, people (working class) started to want to amass wealth at the expense of everything else, now we moan about it. Every business seemed to want to move into the financial market, people like the AA who had no business there would be sending credit cards.

Now we're all picking up the pieces. While I agree that the public sector are very bad at running businesses, i don't think everything should be privatised. I'm just glad health is a devolved matter when I look at the NHS south of the border. At least we have a chance to take another path in 2014, and hope we're brave enough as a nation to see the sense in it, but thats another debate.

oh, just to clear up the confusing papa seems to be an Ayrshire word fro Grandad, so I wasn't born when he was arrested, just heard the stories growing up.

Kris

You are officially the poshest bloke i know Tim.

Lol.

Don Tax wrote:

---

The old industries were not going to survive, so I disagree Mrs Thatcher destroyed communities........ well ok, perhaps a few mines could have been kept open, but a command economy is unsustainable.

---

Lea Hall. A superpit with massive reserves of good quality coal was keeping another pit open by a coal being transported to a second pit with lower quality coal and the two mixed to an acceptable level.

The coal was registered as belonging to the second pit rather than Lea hall so the superpit was closed in days and the whole head bulldozed into the shaft to stop the pit from being reopened.

The second pits quality of coal then went down so was closed due to the quality of coal.

The entire mining community was broken by a trick of the hand not by the conservatives but by their American attack dog who went too far in his remit.

And the real shock of this attack on the Staffordshire coalfields was that these were miners who followed Joe Gormly (about the only union leader that I have any respect for) rather than the political aspirations and desire for a communist state of Arthur Scargill.

My area has still not recovered. Thriving towns such as Rugeley are now thirty years on a mix of board ups and charity shops.

I think that the conservatives overstepped the mark with the mining industry... But... The miners were the strongest of the unions. They were not by a long stretch the worst of them.

It was the unions that had destroyed the UK and whilst I may not agree with how it was done and to which group, Arthur Scargills political aspirations condemned an entire industry to death even more than the old battle wounds of the conservatives from their last run in with the miners under the Heath government.

If Kenneth clarke says that he aspired to full employment then he is lying.

Full employment breeds inflation. Employment has to be kept like musical chairs with slightly less chairs than people who need to sit on them otherwise wage inflation would kill the economy.

Where this comes unstuck is where you have a population able to work that makes a lifestyle choice that they do not want to so you have chairs unfilled in the game. And that is the reasoning behind the uncomfortable changes afoot to the benefits system that do not take into account that genuine cases are being caught up with the dross in the same way as the baby being thrown out with the bath water.

For the country to succeed the people move aspire for something more and believe that such is an attainable goal.

As for privatisation selling utilities to the French... Whilst that may be the result that is not an issue with privatisation but rather the stock exchange and availability of shares.

If you can buy more than 50% of the shares of a company then you can control the rest including enforced repurchase as happened with the first takeover of London Electricity by the Americans. It was then the American comapny that sold the LE to EDF (Electricity de France) which is actually a French nationalised industry so our utilities actually belong to the French Government, not a French company.

The whole thing reminds me of the old line about the road to hell being lined with good intentions.

I'm not going to touch the council house debate as I fundamentally disagree with the Government being long term landlords and that debate would detract from the general thread.

For all of the mistakes and misjudgements the Thatcher administration changed the country for the better and those now throwing parties were for the most part not even born at the time let alone lived through it.

Simple statement of fact. in 1979 the country was run by the unions. We had rolling blackouts, there was rubbish piled high in the streets and as a percentage of the population unemployment was as bad then as it has ever been.

Those who think that such issues were a conservative issue are just getting their years mixed up.

Funny, I didn't see any of this outpouring of anger when Callaghan died but maybe the country was a slightly better and more respectful place back in 2005.

At the moment I am absolutely disgusted by the behaviour amonst some of the members of our society over baroness Thatchers demise.

They should perhaps attempt to achieve such greatness in their lives rather than this outpouring of anger without knowledge at someone who did achieve real greatness from humble beginings.

Shaun.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

They were probably using cheap imported south American coal for those furnaces. Sure that the remaining furnaces are doing a really good job of the plentiful supply union leaders and labour politicians that by 1979 had brought the UK to its knee's.

Also of course I'm sure that if Maggie is responsible for that privatisation she's only actually down there on a consultancy basis.

No doubt the decommissioned furnaces will be replaced with better ones ready for the future influx of the politicians from new labour, the coalition, those who came up with RTI and the SNP, lol.

Shaun.

-- Edited by Shamus on Wednesday 17th of April 2013 09:24:21 AM

lol Tim. Had to rewrite the first part of mine a few times so crossed in the post.

Its funny what you say Donna as I am probably of similar age to you, and I agree with all that you say. Although I do think the channel tunnel is good only from a point of thats its alot cheaper than a boat to get across the channel. We normally go out of Portsmouth as its closest to us but the prices are so high this year the tunnel is looking favourable again, even with all the extra fuel its still cheaper. The only problem I have with the tunnel is all the imagrents that come through it unfortunately its an entrance into benefits Britain! They come from far and wide for our lovely country and its benefits, I don't see them stopping at other countries on the way, oh that's because they don't get hand outs there!

I echo what you say Donna, as I am British through and through but to be honest I am not proud of it anymore, there are too many hand outs to everyone, more bloody kids born just to get more money, I mean why on earth should I pay for people to have more and more kids!!!!! If you want them get on and pay for them out of your own pocket not mine! Maybe they should bring in sterilising woman who haven't got a hubby/partner that can support their ever growing family (sorry I know its harsh but that's how I feel when some women gets £60k just to have more kids and a bigger house). I know in reality you can't do it.

As my kids get older I will be encouraging them to leave Britain and flee abroad for work and a good job, I myself will not be retiring in England I made that choice a long time ago. All the pensions are rubbish, they certainly aren't what they were when Maggie was in power, people are worried that their pensions aren't enough, or you have to invest what money you have into something else like property to make sure you can build yourself a nest egg for later. The whole country is fallen apart, we can't deport people, the government would like to but then they go to court with a good Lawyer that I am paying for, and they can't be deported because of human rights, what a load of twoddle that is!

I for one think she was a really strong leader and did the country a lot of good, its just that people can't really see what she did as it took her ages to put us back on the map after Labour ruined us. The same has happened again with dear Gorden, he was put in charge of the money for a long time and then became leader and then nearly bankrupted the country, now the Government has to mend it again! Admittedly I would have liked to have seen a single Government not a joint one, as I don't think it particulary works well and people will think about that when they vote next time and they the bloody Labour will get back in again, then we will all be in trouble.

I do worry for the younger generation as god knows what our 'Great' country will be then, they will probably re-name it and 'Great Britain' will be no longer!

I love Politics so I am going to go now before I get carried away!

She was one of the 'Greats' in politics, very strong and wouldn't back down.

-- Edited by Amanda on Tuesday 16th of April 2013 05:32:19 PM

Amanda wrote:

---

I echo what you say Donna, as I am British through and through but to be honest I am not proud of it anymore, there are too many hand outs to everyone, more bloody kids born just to get more money, I mean why on earth should I pay for people to have more and more kids!!!!! If you want them get on and pay for them out of your own pocket not mine! Maybe they should bring in sterilising woman who haven't got a hubby/partner that can support their ever growing family (sorry I know its harsh but that's how I feel when some women gets £60k just to have more kids and a bigger house). I know in reality you can't do it.

The benefit cap may well sort that out.

As my kids get older I will be encouraging them to leave Britain and flee abroad for work and a good job, I myself will not be retiring in England I made that choice a long time ago. All the pensions are rubbish, they certainly aren't what they were when Maggie was in power, people are worried that their pensions aren't enough, or you have to invest what money you have into something else like property to make sure you can build yourself a nest egg for later. The whole country is fallen apart, we can't deport people, the government would like to but then they go to court with a good Lawyer that I am paying for, and they can't be deported because of human rights, what a load of twoddle that is!

I wish I could do the same as you, but I couldn't bear to not have my kids close by, then they are young still and after two daughter teenage years my view may change



I do worry for the younger generation as god knows what our 'Great' country will be then, they will probably re-name it and 'Great Britain' will be no longer!

I share your concern.

---