Hello - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

tr1989 · Newbie

Hello

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Dave, yes the confedrence is always something to look forward to. I know the ICB had thought of having it closer to you in Birmingham this year, but it's London again and a nice venue at that. Things are going well here and students are always keeping us on our toes, which is a really enjoyable part of what we do. Regards to to you all.

Regards to you too, Shaun. I would never accuse you of veering away from the original topic disbelief

-- Edited by Brian McVean on Friday 12th of April 2013 03:12:12 PM

TRAINING LINK · Senior Member

Hi Tom

Welcome to the forum where you will find many forum members with an abundance of knowledge, sadly I am not one of them lol. Also there are Accountants on here who have a sense of humour (who would have thought)

Good luck in your last year at uni and if you are looking at self employment as a Bookkeeper then I would 100% suggest taking a look at the ICB (Institute of Certified Bookkeepers) and perhaps attending their annual conference which is in London in November.

Good luck with the BA degree and please let us know how you get on.

Dave

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Hi Tom, and welcome go the forum. Lots of people on here to offer an abundance of advice, usually much more than I can offer. Some posts go off on different tangents but that only adds to the enjoyment. Many are worth taking your time to read through.

Good luck with the completion of your degree and I hope your plans come to fruition.

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Great minds, Dave biggrin

TRAINING LINK · Senior Member

Hi Brian

Hope all is well with you and Ideal? Looking forward to the conference in November, why do I feel I am wishing my life away lol.

Dave

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Threads going off piste Brian... just point me at these miscreants and I'll have serious words. lol.

Hi Tom,

welcome to the forum.

the choices that you make now will follow you through the next few years of your career.

With your degree course did you do the bookkeeping modules as part of the course or was it pure accountancy?

The options to look at would be ICB, IAB or ACCA.

There's no point looking at AAT from where you are coming from.

ICB or IAB are bookkeeping qualifications.

ACCA would be the next stage that you go to after your degree so you would be giving yourself a head start by taking it on simultaneously (asssuming that you did not want the exemptions given once you have passed the degree).

If you take paper F3 that covers all knowledge from all levels of ICB / IAB but in a different manner where the exam questions are trying to catch you out with emphasis on why rather than how.

I would advise taking F2 and F3 even if you have exemptions from them.

The downside to ACCA is that you are allowed to offer bookkeeping services whilst you are a student with them but bookkeeping in the minds of the accounting bodies is restricted to bookkeeping to trial balance, VAT and Payroll work No accounts, no filing, no advice.

That is at odds with the bookkeeping qualifications that wander into accountancy territory and that ties in more with the expectation of clients who expect bookkeepers to simply be cheaper accountants.

As soon as you become a student with the ACCA you are restricted by their rules no matter who else you may be qualified with which in your situation would tend to guide you more towards ICB or IAB....

..... BUT ....

Be very careful about the qualificationas that appear on your CV as these will have an effect on the perceptions of the companies that you apply to.

If as I suspect you are looking to end up in industry or practice then ICB / IAB means nothing but ACCA will open doors (far more than a degree, except that if you have a good degree you may be picked up on the milk round and put onto ACCA study by your new employer (and expected to pass every exam first time which means that there may be good arguement to do the qualification privately rather than through your employer)).

Basically, if you take ACCA you would include it on your CV but for the bookkeeping qualifications for the firms that you will be applying to based on an accountancy degree you would be wise to leave such off your CV.

That means that the qualification needs to be considered on the basis of what else it offers which is MLR cover and a more nuts and bolts level approach to bookkeeping which will help you gain a firm understanding of the mechanics of bookkeeping. It also used to be cheaper PII but I think that they would have difficulty beating the site Arlington / Zurich quote.

In conclusion ICB / IAB are both excellent bookkeeping qualifications with ICB currently taking a more hands on approach in the business but if you go down that route expect he qualification to be a transient one where it never actually appears on your CV.

Intending to work in industry or practice to my mind you would be better off studying ACCA including taking the exams that you could have exemption from and having MLR cover through HMRC to offer bookkeeping services to trial balance only.

But that is only personal view and you may see better advantage in the ICB or IAB routes even considering dropping the qualification later when you are looking for employment.

Lots to think about there and sure that others will disagree with me.

All the best and welcome to the forum,

Shaun.

TRAINING LINK · Senior Member

Lol Brian

One thing about BKN is you can start a topic about sausages and it will end up as a topic about beans lol. I have 100 posts as proof. fact is always be honest with your personal opinion and not use threads as promotional opportunities, we are not American and people can see through this, my motto is be honest, believe in what you do and the organisation you represent and the cream will always rise to the top, if not it will stain your trousers and leave a hefty cleaning bill lol.

Dave

Spamkebab · Expert

Dave those 2 topics are too closely associated to have ever been brought up on BKN.

Hello Tom, welcome to the forum.

Neil.

TRAINING LINK · Senior Member

So tell me Niel do you prefer a sausage sandwich or sausage and beans on a plate with toast?

I rest my case lol

Dave

Spamkebab · Expert

But see, you tied the two of them. sausages and beans go together. If you read the other posts that (Shaun, cough cough) have gone before, they start and end with things that would never be placed upon the same plate. Very much like custard and cheesy peas.

You have no case to rest.

TRAINING LINK · Senior Member

Shamus wrote:
Threads going off piste Brian... just point me at these miscreants and I'll have serious words. lol.

Hi Tom,

welcome to the forum.

the choices that you make now will follow you through the next few years of your career.

With your degree course did you do the bookkeeping modules as part of the course or was it pure accountancy?

The options to look at would be ICB, IAB or ACCA.

There's no point looking at AAT from where you are coming from.

ICB or IAB are bookkeeping qualifications.

ACCA would be the next stage that you go to after your degree so you would be giving yourself a head start by taking it on simultaneously (asssuming that you did not want the exemptions given once you have passed the degree).

If you take paper F3 that covers all knowledge from all levels of ICB / IAB but in a different manner where the exam questions are trying to catch you out with emphasis on why rather than how.

I would advise taking F2 and F3 even if you have exemptions from them.

The downside to ACCA is that you are allowed to offer bookkeeping services whilst you are a student with them but bookkeeping in the minds of the accounting bodies is restricted to bookkeeping to trial balance, VAT and Payroll work No accounts, no filing, no advice.

That is at odds with the bookkeeping qualifications that wander into accountancy territory and that ties in more with the expectation of clients who expect bookkeepers to simply be cheaper accountants.

As soon as you become a student with the ACCA you are restricted by their rules no matter who else you may be qualified with which in your situation would tend to guide you more towards ICB or IAB....

..... BUT ....

Be very careful about the qualificationas that appear on your CV as these will have an effect on the perceptions of the companies that you apply to.

If as I suspect you are looking to end up in industry or practice then ICB / IAB means nothing but ACCA will open doors (far more than a degree, except that if you have a good degree you may be picked up on the milk round and put onto ACCA study by your new employer (and expected to pass every exam first time which means that there may be good arguement to do the qualification privately rather than through your employer)).

Basically, if you take ACCA you would include it on your CV but for the bookkeeping qualifications for the firms that you will be applying to based on an accountancy degree you would be wise to leave such off your CV.

That means that the qualification needs to be considered on the basis of what else it offers which is MLR cover and a more nuts and bolts level approach to bookkeeping which will help you gain a firm understanding of the mechanics of bookkeeping. It also used to be cheaper PII but I think that they would have difficulty beating the site Arlington / Zurich quote.

In conclusion ICB / IAB are both excellent bookkeeping qualifications with ICB currently taking a more hands on approach in the business but if you go down that route expect he qualification to be a transient one where it never actually appears on your CV.

Intending to work in industry or practice to my mind you would be better off studying ACCA including taking the exams that you could have exemption from and having MLR cover through HMRC to offer bookkeeping services to trial balance only.

But that is only personal view and you may see better advantage in the ICB or IAB routes even considering dropping the qualification later when you are looking for employment.

Lots to think about there and sure that others will disagree with me.

All the best and welcome to the forum,

Shaun.

Shaun Says If as I suspect you are looking to end up in industry or practice then ICB / IAB means nothing

You posted you are looking at providing Bookkeeping as self employed, if this is the case then ICB is the way forward, at higher levels I will agree with Shauns reply but if self employed Bookkeeping then ICB is the way forward.

Dave

TRAINING LINK · Senior Member

So Neil I assume you concur that BKN forum posts always remain on the original poster subject? Forgive me I am just a brummie with an IQ of 2 but you can address me as Ameba lol

Dave

Spamkebab · Expert

Nice turnaround Dave, you should work in politics.

TRAINING LINK · Senior Member

Neil you and Shaun are my faves on here you know that

Dave

Ps Let me know your personal email address, I have a cunning plan

Dave

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

TRAINING LINK wrote:
Neil you and Shaun are my faves on here you know that

One free banning exemption card for Dave. lol.

On the ICB / ACCA thing earlier the point I was trying to get to was that whilst ICB would be a good option in many instances I'm reading between the lines with Tom.

Look at the facts :

- Just coming to an end of a degree in Accountancy and finance

- Already achieved a placement in industry

- Bookkeeping is indicated as a side role whilst studying accountancy rather than the goal in itself (which is ultimately accountancy).

The working as a bookkeeper on the side whilst becoming an accountant is very much what ACCA regulation 8 is all about.

In Toms case (and I indicate here that the answer was specific to the scenario as I read it and is not a general x is better than y in all instances), personally I do not think that ICB is the right option for him but it may serve him as a stepping stone dependant upon how he wanted to play the scenario.

Of course, maybe I have misread or overread the scenario but from my initial understanding I think that in this instance he should be looking at ACCA and once past F3 (which he should sit rather than exempt himself from) do bookkeeping to trial balance onthe side for a while until the day job and studies overtake all available time in his life.

There you go. Even managed to keep the reply on piste wink

TRAINING LINK · Senior Member

lol Shaun, feel like I have a get out of jail for free card, I will save it for a later date if possible?

black and white is how I read posts and I do get it wrong Shaun as you know but as an individual I read a post as a layman and as such the poster indicated Bookkeeping as their personal preference and as such they have to be look at the ICB, the papers you are advising is more accountancy unless my inferior knowledge is misinforming me?

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Dave,

just for you I've left off the normal expiry date on your get out of jail free card.

My reply was influenced by this line :

"I have been considering the idea of trying to set up as a small self employed book keeper in a position where I can work part time whilst finishing my final year at university".

The emphasis is on trying to make a bit of extra cash whilst finishing off his degree rather than the bookkeeping being the actual goal.

paper F3 that I speak of requires that you have a firm and very detailed grasp of bookkeeping. I think that the ICB have realised this as now if you have passed F3 within two years they give exemptions based on that... Not as many exemptions as it deserves but thats politics rather than the merit of the paper.

F3 goes from basically initial data entry to basic accounts and anyone that has studied it would, or should be able to pass the whole of the manual side of the ICB syllabus through to level IV.

Where the ICB differs radically is the emphasis on computerised bookkeeping where ACCA covers purely manual bookkeeping.

TRAINING LINK · Senior Member

Thats why I love Shaun (not in a gay way) he explains in every feasible concept which is why black and white Dave sometime finds it hard to evaluate, but let me ask this ICB qualifications are a lot quicker to attain so that the poster of the thread can if advertising his services correctly can be earning money while attaining a higher qualification?

Dave

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Dave,

true, but as you know you don't need to be qualified to be a bookkeeper... Or even an accountant for that matter!

What you need is a strength of knowledge base not to get sued and the qualifications sufficient to obtain PII (which unlike MLR cover is not a legal requirement but pretty stupid if you don't have it).

A third year accountancy student should be able to get PII cover and should be able to quickly gain the necessary bookkeeping knowledge.

For example, there is no reason that he could not do the Training Link ICB course but with no intention of taking any ICB exams or joining the ICB.

Similarly he could do the Premier AAT bookkeeping or self study ACCA F3.

Where exams are useful is in making you really know your stuff. Can you take mock ICB exams through TL in exam conditions without being ICB?

With ACCA you could study the Kaplan F3 text then buy the BPP i-pass CD for F3 which would test your knowledge in 300 questions without even needing to be an ACCA student.

Of course the excercise does seem a little futile if you are not going to gain anything from it when you have gone through the motions of something that would have gained an exam pass.

I think that really we need a bit more from Tom as to what his intentions are in light of the answers so far received in order to make a call as to how to gear advice towards bookkeeping or accountanty qualifications... Or indeed no additional qualifications for now as he must have his hands full with his third year studies.

kind regards,

Shaun.

tr1989 · Newbie

Hi Everyone,

Sorry for the delay in reply

Thank you for all the advice - definitely gave me lots to think about.

Shaun you are correct in the sense that bookkeeping is not my final goal but I feel it would be of great benefit to my future and there would be plenty practical experience I could take away from only a few years of basic bookkeeping to trial balance stage.

Perhaps I should also have made it more clear that my aim would be to work with a small number of small sole trader business such as shop/painters/window cleaners etc and to simply complete to trial balance level.

In terms of professional qualification I have set my sights at becoming ICAS qualified and from there looking at becoming a member of the Insolvency Practitioners Assosiation (which is something I have always been particularly interested in) - I'm not sure if there is any rules about practicing bookkeeping whilst studying ICAS but I will definitely have to look into that.

Also as asked there have been some bookkeeping included in some of the modules we have taken at university, for example one of the modules included a practical task where we had to take a business from the receipts and invoice right through to completed financial statements so I feel I would be more than comfortable taking a small sole trader through to the trial balance stage either manually or using software (once I got my head around the software.) Having said that we did a similar project but using Sage Line 50 so I have also had a small amount of exposure to sage.

Thanks for all the points
Tom

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Good luck in becoming chartered Tom.

I think that the problem that you will have running a bookkeeping business and working towards chartered is that to become chartered (unlike chartered certified) you need to be in a training contract and the contract rather than ICAS may prevent you from doing any business on the side as there is likely to be a non compete clause in there to ensure that all clients that you have are brought in house.

We have a few chartered on here who when they read this may be able to fill in a few more details.

For anything else, any help or advice that you need along the way just ask on here and one of the regulars, including myself are normally around to point you in the right direction.

kindest regards,

Shaun.

tr1989 · Newbie

Thank you for the good luck - I may need it, I feel there is still a long road ahead!

I did think that there may be an issue if I was working on a training contract. I have noticed a lot of posts on this forum regarding the BookCert package and it seems to be very highly thought of. If I was to buy this package do you think this would give me the appropriate tools and knowledge to take on a few small private clients to earn a small amount of revenue on a part time basis completing bookkeeping to trial balance level at least for the next couple of years until I finalise my plans?

Tom

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Tom,

sorry, I can't answer that one as I don't actually have a copy of the kit myself.

Like yourself I've not heard a bad word said against it but I would hate to represent it to you where it might not be everything that you need.

Fingers crossed one of the others who does own this kit will read this and can remember back to how useful it was when they were first starting out.

kind regards,

Shaun.

MarkS · Expert

Tom

As Shaun says you need to firstly find a firm to give you a CA contract. 17 years since I started out but compared to then there are a lot less CA contracts available than there was back then so competition is very tough so employers can afford to be choosy.

If you are lucky enough to get a contract be prepared to write off 3 years off your life (well at least 2) as as well as working full time, and in some cases more than full time, you will need to sit the hardest exams you will have sat to date (infinitely harder than highers/univ).

Just keep in mind that the qualified people in your office past the exams, hey I passed them as well, so they arent impossible.

Regards

Mark