I am a qualified ACCA accountant (FCCA in fact) out of work for a while. Bookkeeping is one way to earn money again. There are many restrictions imposed by the ACCA on what I can do, as I did not qualify in practice and hold no Practicing Certificate. What I am wondering is, out in the real bookkeeping world (which I have no experience of as I have only been employed by relatively large companies before now), is there any demand for the limited level of work I am allowed to do.
My understanding is that I can do 1> bookkeeping to trial balance 2> Management Accounts clearly marked for internal use only and not for the benefit of third parties 3> VAT (usually) 4> Payroll (probably ?).
But I could not do 1> Personal or corporate tax returns 2> Any report a third party relies on, which surely rules out Year End Accounts 3 > Most things normally associated with an accountant - e.g tax advice.
Is there actually a market for this limited level of service or do small scale traders want someone who can do it all ?
Are there any other ACCA people on the forum who do well at this despite the strict barriers placed in their way ?
Despite over 10 years experience of working for individual companies I take it that the only way to get a Practicing Certificate is to be an "apprentice" for two years to a ACCA PC holder in a firm of accountants, strange though that seems.
There was a post on here a while back where someone had spoken to the ACCA about filing self assessments and they had said ok but you would need to check that yourself as my understanding is that you are not allowed to file at all unless directly supervies by a suitably qualified accountant.
The question posed actually hits the more fundamental one of is there a market for bookkeeping or are bookkeepers only able to survive by offering accountancy services.
Trying to stay within regulation 8 one is hit by the problem that clients are basically looking for cheaper accountants rather than a bookkeeper and an accountant.
The best definition of where bookkeeping ends and accountancy begins is I feel ACCA regulation 8 and even finding bookkeepers who can work within that is difficult.
There are of course all sorts of options but it seems that all of them except working under direct supervision mean stepping down from ACCA and that qualification is just too hard won to walk away from.
Quite a few ACCA people do take straight transfer accross to IFA in order to practice. Thats actually a path that I have taken but I've refused to give up on ACCA so have an arrangement with a local chartered practice involving supervision in exchange for Sage clients (I don't want them and they do).
And yes, as with yourself. despite working in a management accounting (and business analysis) role in industry for best part of the last 30 years it counts for nothing towards a practice certificate.
I keep hoping that something will change with regulation 8 and got quite excited when there was an alteration this year but unfortunately the alteration (which was called a clarification) simply allows you to practice in the UK if you are a student or affiliate but have a recognised foreign practicing certificate but not if you have a recognised UK one (have a read of the Jan 2013 release of regulation 8 and you'll see what I mean).
I cannot see the logic behind that change.
Anyway, welcome to the forum. There's a great mix on here of students and members of many of the main accountancy bodies as well as the bookkeeping ones,
kind regards,
Shaun.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Thanks, Shamus and everyone else. It is as bad as I thought. Of course, the nuclear option of leaving the ACCA is always there and they are in no doubt that I see them more as a liability than an asset. But it seems a big step to leave them, especially if I want to be back in the employment marketplace. The core issue is if it's worthwhile trying to establish a business that'll take two years to fully take off if clients don't want a separate accountant and bookkeeper ? It seems no. It doesn't look good. Hopefully other respondents might be more upbeat. I'd be interested to hear from ACCAs who are succeeding as bookkeepers despite no Practicing Cert'.
The ICB have told me "unofficially" that apperently there members can get around the regularion 8 problem. They have a practicing licence with the ICB and study with the ACCA. I only have an email from James (from the ICB) which states the following:
"On the other side we have been getting members saying they have been told by the ACCA it is ok for them to have a bookkeeping business as long as it falls under the ICBs banner"
However, if it was me i would want something in writing before i risked my membership of ACCA.
On a side note, the ICAEW didnt care that i was practicing under the AAT when i was studying as long i did it legally and didnt mention them in anyway. This just seems the obvious way for the ACCA to go forward.
Kind regards
Nick
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Nick
Nick Craggs FMAAT ACA AAT Distance Learning Manager
You would think that the number of people that qualify ACCA then have to leave and set up under another body the ACCA would be more reasonable about practicing under another dbodies banner but making no mention of them.
However, they missed the opportunity with the change to regualtion 8 by only instilling flexibility for students with a non UK practicing certificate and they were quite specific about those changes.
My impression with the ICB quote is that perhaps the ACCA believe that ICB people are bookkeepers and all bookkeeping roles come within the remit of regulation 8... However, it's really a case of when is a bookkeeper not a bookkeeper as I for one find it difficult to tell the difference between the services being offered by bookkeepers in the SME sector and accountants.
Maybe if the ACCA cottoned onto ICB people were actually offering advice, prepariong accounts, etc. They would be less accomodating.
I would advise any ACCA person thinking of going down the ICB road to actually phone the ACCA and tell them exactly the services that you would be offering under an ICB banner and in that situation I think that the answers that they will get will be the complete opposit to that given the ICB.
I know that from personal exerience I was told by the ACCA that I could not take a permanent role with an unqualified accountant because they were not qualified enough to employ me.
Now that would have been as an employee, no mention of my ACCA affiliation to clients but the ACCA's point was that I would have been offering more than basic bookkeeping services and students, even as employee's if not properly supervised by a qualified accountant (ACA, ACCA, etc.) are not allowed to offer anything beyond the remit of regulation 8.
However, worth noting is that you can be self employed and if properly supervised you can offer services beyond regulation 8 but you may not use any refrerence to the ACCA.
Thats the route that I'm on but that causes other issue. What if you have disagreement with the practice supervising you? If you then have no cover you cannot practice so you are unable to look after the clients that you already have.
Considering the often contentious manner of our work where if you want a different opinion just ask a different accountant the idea of professional fall out's is always a real and present danger so one could lose their livelihood in a moments arguement or just as bad be forced to compromise ones opinion.
My view is that whilst the ICB may believe that they are right in this unofficial advice I do not believe that the ACCA realise what they have actually agreed to.
Everyone should get written confirmation from the ACCA before acting upon anything that they are told by any other professional body.
kind regards,
Shaun.
p.s. just trying to live with regulation 8. I don't agree with it and find the foreign practicing certificate holders exemption a slap in the face for UK staudnts and affiliates. But, we have to live with the rules as they are and work around them as best we can. Just don't want to see any casualties suffering on the back of well meaning advice.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Yeah it is a bit confusing, the ACCA is a massive body and although ICB talks with some high up people there it can take years before a body can/will change its regulations.
It is an outdated rule (in my personal opinion), and is affecting them as there have been many posts on here about it and people don't want to give up their practice in order to join so go to CIMA or ICAEW or a non chartered body.
It does seem to be depending on who you talk to, or how you put it.
I guess if you ring them and say:
I run a successful bookkeeping practice, I have 2 staff and 100 clients, are you telling me I have to give that up just to study with you? Or go else where?
Thanks to all 6 people who replied so far. I seem to have chosen the wrong accounting body to be a member of.
To abide by the rules, I can do bookkeeping and internal management accounts, including management accounts for the full year, but any statutory accounts I cannot do (even though I have several years experience of them). I take it that advising clients to go to an accountant to have my numbers in the statutory format would be very bad for business - or does that work well in practise ? If I can work within Reg 8 and the market place will accept the limited services I can do, then that is fine - but if the market does not that is the problem.
The question that still needs more answers is what does the market expect ?
Also, I still haven't heard from anyone successfully running a business under the limits of Reg. 8. It would be nice to do so.
chewb-acca wrote:I still haven't heard from anyone successfully running a business under the limits of Reg. 8.
There may be a reason for that Jonathan!
As I indicated previously the market expects bookkeepers to be cheaper accountants. Something that all of the ACCA students and affiliates on here are quite capable of doing but are not allowed to do unless they meet very specific supervision restrictions.
Whilst unfair on the individual it is not a system without merit as it rewards practices for training staff by ensuring that they do not leave practices the moment that they qualify so employers do get 3 years post qualification return on investment before the employee's go off to set up in pastures new.
Whilst I can see the ACCA's reasoning for the way things are, there are all sorts of reasons why that basic idea no longer works in the mordern world but to abandon it altogether would affect the willing ness of practices to train Staff through the ACCA.
kind regards,
Shaun.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
