Following on from my previous post as a newbie, I thought I'd need a plan to start out as a bookeeper but lots of questions swirl in my head and I try to research them but I end up going off tangent so I thought I'd write them down and ask for help? Please shoot down any inaccuracies in my knowledge!!
1) What to offer - So it seems as an FCCA I can offer the following;
Finance Statements for accountant sign off , Bookkeeping Services , Business Advice , Business Plans , business start ups , Cashflow Mgtmnt , Company Formations , Credit Control , Excel solutions , Free Initial Consultation , Invoicing , Mgtmnt Accts , Payroll Services , VAT returns , Incomplete records , CIS
I can't offer - Tax computations and Accounts sign off.
2) Billings - How do I work out what to charge? How do I ascertain how long a job would take and what rate? I'd hate to be stuck with a load of clients forever earning a under market rate but at the same token don't what to price myself out of the market.
3) Professional body registration - As mentioned I am FCCA. If I wish to offer non ACCA approved (regulation 8) services, can I just join another approved body and not mention/advertise my ACCA. I'd hate to lapse it after years of study, are they ok with that running in the background? Do I need any other body registration, HMRC, bookkeeping associations?
4) Insurance - Need any?
5) Advertising - Do I need a website? Can I build it myself or third party, cost?
6) Company name - Should I register a Company name at Companies House even though earnings may not justify that route just yet?
7) Software - Accounts/Payroll, any freebies out there, which is the best? The smallest company software I ever used was Sage I think, not very good from memory allowing back dated postings etc yuk!
8) Home/Office balance - How does this work? Is it a visit to an office to gather stuff or work in an office? I'd hate to get drawn back into an office having to commute and put up with office politics again. Offices next to my house rent out private desk space for 200 a month although I guess thats expensive as starting out.
That is what is swirling around in my head at the moment, sorry it's all a mess I know! Any help and clarity would be really appreciated.
5. Advertising, do you need a website? Yes - but only if it's professional. If it looks amaturish then you're going to be better of without it. It comes down to do you have the skills to develop the site yourself? If not do you have the resources to pay someone to do it properly. Unfortunately, many people think they can do it themselves, and I bet if you look though a few bookkeeping websites you'll see what I'm talking about.
7. There are many pieces of software out there. I suggest you get free trials of VT Transaction+ and QuickBooks at least. I think a good bookkeeper/accountant should have more than one piece of software in their toolbox. I hate speaking to accoutants and hearing them say "we only use sage".
8. I never work from clients offices. Its about deciding how you want to run your business and then targetting clients which suit that model.
Ok, working a tag team with Kris and others I hope.
I'll take the ACCA bit for starters.
I'm reading this that you do not have a practice certicate from the ACCA.
If thats the case then I'm affraid that its bad news all round on the services that you can offer.
Also the way that you phrase things its as though you are passing financial statements to the accountant to sign off rather than being under direct supervision (I appreciate that in reality there is not a great deal of difference!).
Until you have a practice certificate, whether you are a student who has just passed paper F1 or an FCCA having passed everything. Regulation 8 still applies exactly the same meaning that you are allowed to :
- Provide bookkeeping services to trial balance only
- Prepare VAT returns (but not file them)
- Process Payroll
- Prepare management accounts provided that nobody outside of the organisation relies upon them.
And thats basically it which is absolutely ridiculous but thats regulation 8!
It doesn't matter which other body you join, unless you stand down from the ACCA regulation 8 takes precedence over everyone elses rules.
That creates some ridiculous anomalies in that you could have someone who has been (say) IFA for years offering all of the services that you state. They join the ACCA as a student and suddenly they are deemed not fit to perform the work that they previously were without direct supervision of a suitably qualified accountant who may have less experience than they do!
The whole bit about not mentioning ACCA in advertising makes no difference which is quite different to the CIMA and AAT approaches which would work the way that you assume.
The whole premise of regulation 8 seems to be to make pin money whilst studying. You certainly don't seem to be able to make a living offering only the services that regulation 8 allows which is purely bookkeeping in the traditional sense and thats pretty much a dieing occupation.
Sure we'll chat later, sorry thats it's all bad news for now,
Shaun.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Thanks for that and Kris also in your help. No you are right in that I don't have a practising certificate. So in terms of the below where I have previous experience, where have I tripped up in my knowledge?
Allowed and can advertise - Preparation up to Finance Statements then for 'qualified' accountant/auditor sign off , Bookkeeping Services (basically the former) , Business Advice , Business Plans , business start ups , Cashflow Mgtmnt , Company Formations , Credit Control , Excel solutions , Free Initial Consultation , Invoicing , Mgtmnt Accts (no 3rd party) , Payroll Services , VAT returns (file if client approval (altered!) , Incomplete records , CIS.
Disallowed - Tax computations and Accounts sign off.
It therefore seems to me that ACCA disallow members without a practising certificate from offering services that could have external repercussions? All of the 'allowed' I have listed are 'internal' so are fine? For example, surely I can do Company Formations ZZZZzzzzz!!!!!
Matt
-- Edited by Matt45 on Tuesday 30th of July 2013 07:30:08 PM
I've just been going on the wording of regulation 8 for guidance but when I came to reply to this I went off to the ACCA site to get a quote and came accross their helpsheet on whether or not you been a practicing certificate.
Have a read yourself but it seems to support totally the wording of regulation 8 where all of thse services that you are thinking of such as busienss advice, business plans, startup advice, company formations, etc. are beyond the scope of things that you are allowed to do.
Have a read yourself.
Also have a look at the wording of regulation 8.
the rules are very Draconian and it must cost the ACCA quite a few qualified members moving over to other bodies that are more accomodating.
Sorry that its not a more positive reply. Your not the first to be frustrated by regulation 8 and you certainly won't be the last,
kind regards,
Shaun.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Thanks for all your input Shaun. I just read that and you feel like throwing it out of the window!! So you can do bookkeeping but not advertise the fact you are ACCA qualified because it might mislead people into thinking you are in public practice? absolute bonkers! This is policy made up on the hoof imo and am not surprised many FCCAs feel their knowledge can't be used to greater effect. So what are the solutions here?
- Get a public practice licence - Does this entail working for 2 years in a practice? How easy is it to get a job in public practice when there are no jobs anywhere else? Also, why would a practice employ me when I would be going into competition with them eventually? - Get sponsored by a practice - Is this possible? - Register under another body say ICB and work under their banner? I read another of your posts, or answered posts, saying this is possible? What about AAT that I passed back in 93, that seems silly though to have to step backwards to a qualification I used merely as a 'stepping stone' - Set up a joint practice with another member who has the practice licence?
Surely there has to be a path...
Thanks for your help guys
Matt
-- Edited by Matt45 on Wednesday 31st of July 2013 08:23:48 AM
Just finished reading it (had to pop off to do some other stuff first) and it comes down to basic confirmation that one is not even allowed to prepare documetns that the client files themselves!
The actual definitions of the work that one is allowed to do ithout a practicing certificate are restricted to :
The preparation of accounting records to trial balance stage
Maintaining clients records in respect of payroll and employment taxes
Maintaining basic sales tax records such as VAT.
Taking decisions reserved for management, or the provision of advice to clients, is beyond book-keeping so is not allowed without a practice certificate. In the document it specifically forbids any of the following :
Exercising judgement in areas usually reserved for management
Providing advice to your clients
Adding value to, or enhancing the credibility of, a report or other document through your involvement in its preparation or submission.
Basically when you look at what you are allowed to do, unless you are working under the direct supervision of a suitably qualified accountant its just data entry work with no analysis or advice at all.
Interesting discussion in the document related to if you enter data which is used to produce management accounts which the client then uses external to the organisation then you need to resign.
Also, for payroll, you can enter data but you cannot file the returns as that would be deemed public practice. Nor can you advise the client over tax efficient salaries etc.
Same with VAT. You can enter the data but you are not deemed competent enough to file it.
All things considered, taking into account what soeone with a bookkeeping qualification is allowed to do compared to someone who has passed all of the ACCA exams and possibly has their 3 years experience signed off but does not yet have a practice certificate... I think that ACCA regulation 8 is the main recruitment tool for bodies such as the IFA and AIA.
I can see why the ACCA make it so difficult but I think that regulation 8 goes way too far in its restrictions and all that it is really doing is playing into the hands of other professional bodies that have more realistic restrictions.
Anyway, thanks for prompting a look at regulation 8 again as some of the conversations that we've had on here recently have been chipping away at my confidence in what I thought that I already knew about it.
You know what its like, enough people tell you that something is acceptable and you start question your own understanding.
We even had a case where someone at the ACCA told someone from the site in writing (I've seen the evidence) that it was ok to file self assessments where such of course clearly contravenes regualtion 8. (another poster here got written confirmation from the ACCA that the initial advice was wrong).
Shaun.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Ok, I'm taking the points out of sequence (third, fourth, first, second).
Register under another body
Remember that regulation 8 takers precedence over everything else so even if you registered with ICB to work under their banner you would have to step down from the ACCA. (now there's a whole other arguement. about ICB examptions. If you think that your annoyed now with the ACCA, wait util you ask the ICB about exemptions as the ICB have these statistics about accountants not being able to do bookkeeping!!!!).
Worth noting, never believe what any other body tells you, always confirm it with the ICB. For example, I know that there are people out there working under the ICB banner who are ACCA but if the ACCA finds them then they will be fined and expelled for that.
Do you really want to give up ACCA for ICB? No insult intended to ICB which is an excellent qualification for many but coming to it from FCCA seems like swapping a mercedes for a vauxhall corsa.
Of course, there's anther analogy there. Which is better a fully taxed and insured Corsa that you have the keys to or a mercedes in the garage that you don't have the keys to.
If you do go down the path of abandoning ACCA (which I am not advising and that will be the hardest and worst dcision that you need to make) then for straight exemptions and an accountancy rather than a bookkeeping qualification, take a serious look at IFA... You won't feel too out of place as it's creaking at the seams with ex ACCA bods who cannot traverse regulation 8!
Set up a joint practice
For starting a practice with someone else thats still contravening regulation 8 (specifically 8.2.a.iii & 8.2.a.iv) which precludes being a parner, director or hold any rights in the firm.
How easy is it to get a job in public practice
Difficult but not impossible.
The people employing you must be suitably qualified accountants.
QBE's and quite a few other bodies are regarded by the ACCA the same as unqualified and working with them would (a) not count towards your practice certificate and (b) be a disciplinary matter!(I know, don't even go there).
Get sponsored by a practice
Are you talking here about supervision?
To go down that path there needs to be something in it for the firm doing the supervising such as direct payment as compensation for supervision or passing sufficiernt clients to themso that you are almost a tied agent for them... Don't even think about passing them the draggs. They would want all of the best clients in order to take you on!
Conclusion
So, all in all regulation 8 does exactly what its intended to which is to stop people without a practicing certifficate competing against those who have a practice certificate.
personal view is that regulation 8 is wrong, but, if I had a practicing certificate through the ACCA would I want to be competing against those who did not have one... No I wouldn't.
The failure of regulation 8 though is that it assumes that everyone out there working as an accountnat is ACCA in which instance it would work... But of course they're not and ACCA accountants are competing against all manner of other bodies, many of whome with members trained by the ACCA but unable to get past regulation 8.
I think that regulation 8 is the ACCA's IR35. Its an unfair regulation, it takes no account of reality. It tars everyone with a single brush, everyone affected by it despises it and those who implemented it will only tinker with it rather than do what they should and completely rewrite it.
all the best,
Shaun.
-- Edited by Shamus on Wednesday 31st of July 2013 12:43:17 PM
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
1) So the best bet is to get a practising certificate from another body which you join and then rescind ACCA for a while? So is IFA the natural switchover for disgruntled ACCA members? Do you get the practising certificate automatically?
2) Do you need any other registration e.g. Bookkeeper, HMRC etc?
3) I have been reading about ACCA members getting around this by creating Companies with their wives as director and they then work as an employee of the firm? That doesn't sound ethical to me for an ACCA member trying to keep within the rules?
4) I guess if you wanted to do more stuff over and above client's requests then you could go on their payroll which automatically then makes you an employee for a while and not restricted in any duties?
Cheers
Matt
-- Edited by Matt45 on Monday 5th of August 2013 11:58:33 AM
Think i'll give up on this one and become a painter and decorator!
Do you need an accountant? lol.
sorry, couldn't resist.
-- Edited by Shamus on Monday 5th of August 2013 06:42:25 PM
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
1) So the best bet is to get a practising certificate from another body which you join and then rescind ACCA for a while? So is IFA the natural switchover for disgruntled ACCA members? Do you get the practising certificate automatically?
Think long and hard before giving up ACCA as it was hard won.
To get from ACCA to practicing certificate (trying to do this from memory so you may want to confirm with IFA).
You apply for them to consider you via the reccognition route. There is a charge of, I think it was £75 to look at your application.
You also apply for the correct membership level, for yourself it would I believe be straight to FFA.
Once FFA you can apply for a practicing certificate
There is also a seperate fee for MLR that you must have from the IFA if you do not have from HMRC.
You must have PII cover in place in order to get a practicing certificate (see top of page for the deal from Arlington as a start point).
Throughout the process you will beed a qualified accountant with one of the recognised bodies to vouch for you.
Its all going to set you back int he region of about £500.
Going forwards practicing certificate and membership will be costing you around £400 per year plus your PII which starts at around £78 for low turnover (less than £15k)
2) Do you need any other registration e.g. Bookkeeper, HMRC etc?
You need to tell HMRC that you are self employed.
Also you will need to register with HMRC as an Agent
In some instances you need to register for data protection.
3) I have been reading about ACCA members getting around this by creating Companies with their wives as director and they then work as an employee of the firm? That doesn't sound ethical to me for an ACCA member trying to keep within the rules?
Your quite right, it's not ethical and also it doesn't get around regulation at all but rather shows a lack of understanding of the whole concept of related parties in relation to control. They're not getting around regulation 8, they are simplyplaying hide and seek with the ACCA.
4) I guess if you wanted to do more stuff over and above client's requests then you could go on their payroll which automatically then makes you an employee for a while and not restricted in any duties?
If the duties that you are performing are accounts related / restricted by regulation 8 then the employer must be a qualified accountant in order to be allowed to perform work restricted under regulation 8.
A few years ago I was offered a position working for a firm deemed by the ACCA as unqualified so would only have been allowed to take the position as an employee if I first rescinded my ACCA membership.
Cheers
Matt
Kind regards,
Shaun.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
As an amendment to the above, thinking about it, if the wife was a chartered / chartered certified accountant in practice herself then working through their company would be acceptable.
That creates an interesting scenario where the wife has a practice but is no more than a name on the stationary and the husband does everything within the business but in that scenario although not within the spirit of the rules I do not believe that it breaks them (as always everything should be clarified with the ACCA before taking third party advice).
On the whole working for others concept, as an example of the unfairness of things one can have no qualification at all and buy there way into being a minor partner in an ACCA firm so the public perception of the unqualified person is that they are ACCA even though they have no letters at all after their own name (They have not pretended to be what they are not, the public have simply drawn their own conclusions).
If that person then decided to train to get the letters they would no longer be able to hold a position of power within the firm although they would still be able to work for it as its an ACCA practice.
The person does not suddenly know less than they did before they became a student but in that scenario the restrictions actually prevent people joining the ACCA... How messed up a rule is that!
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
