Queries from a beginner - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

geek84 · Senior Member

Queries from a beginner

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

geek84 wrote:
Good Morning Everyone
I have a level 2 manual and computerised book keeping qualification, together with qualification on using Sage, gained through the ICB, and I am also an Affiliate member. I am also studying the last level of the AAT. I am thinking of doing some book keeping for some local small businesses and was wondering how to go about it. The questions I have for you lovely people out there are:
I thought that was associate member of the ICB rather than Affiliate? Just a minor observation.
1. Do I need both a practicing licence and PII insurance before undertaking any work?
You won't be able to get a practicing certificate without PII.
When with a professional body you are not be allowed to practice without a practicing certificate
If you were not with a professional body you would still need to obtain MLR copver from HMRC
MLR from HMRC or your professional body must be obteained before you take on clients therefore, in answer to the original question you will need everything in place before starting work.
2. What type of work am I qualified to do with my qualifications?
I'll leave this one to others to fill in the latest ICB restrictions but from memory its not a lot... Still more than ACCA regulation 8 would allow though (I may come back to this point later if nobody else chips in).
3. How much would I charge and how long do you think it would take me to complete the work?
This is a how long is a peice of string type question effected by where in the country you are, local prices, etc. Clients are in my experience expecting you to know as much as an accountant but charge less than the cleaner.
You need to take into account all of your expenses including your time at at least minimum wage in order to calculate the rate that you will not go below and then set a rate above that to build in a profit margin (I know, very simple cost+ approach but its a good start point).
4. What is the best way to advertise my services?
Networking combined with busiensscards and a website
6. What type of networking events should I attend? Can you suggest any? I live in the West Midlands.
Some Accountancy firms work to the principle that each partner should be a member of 21 groups that no other partner is a member of. Thats not a bad approachh to adopt so rather than thinking in terms of a a single group such as BNI think of networking in the wider context of where do business people in your area meet?
One of your major networking events will be regular meetings with other ICB members some of whom may be looking to sell clients (i.e. for retirement planning, moving back to permaneent work, etc.).
5. Finally, being an Affiliate member, what letters should follow my name (I thought I should include these just to impress the clients!!).
Its AICB plus any other diplomas that you pick up such as the self assessment one

Thanks in advance for your help.

Hope that helps,

Shaun.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

There are two levels for ICB, Affiliate and associate. This may be the confusion. You'll need to be an associate to get a practice license. As for what can you do, here's what the ICB say: www.bookkeepers.org.uk/Membership/Joining%20by%20Examination

Regarding how to charge, I would encourage anyone to look to fixed fees as opposed to houry. Here is an article about it: www.bkpr.co.uk/the-problems-with-hourly-rates/

Kris

ICBUK · Guru

Hi all,

Just want to clarify a couple of points, AICB is for Associate, Affiliates do not have letters after their name.

If you have completed the Level 2 then you can upgrade to Associate and that is when you can use AICB after your name.

If you have completed AAT Level 4 send in copies of your certificates as you may be able to upgrade to Full Member, then you can use MICB after your name.

"2. What type of work am I qualified to do with my qualifications?

I'll leave this one to others to fill in the latest ICB restrictions but from memory its not a lot"

You can do quite a bit as an Associate, many members stick to Level 2 for various reasons and find more than enough work. You can also branch out into other areas such as Payroll or Self Assessments etc..

Good luck

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Appologies about saying AICB for affiliate.

I read that the poster had passed the level II computerised and manual so assumed that they meant Associate rather than affiliate.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Kris,

this conversations cropped up a few times. normally in relation to the Ron Baker debates.

For the new audience some of what we write here we will have already chatted about.

Whilst you have a point in your article, as Mr Baker does in his. There is always the fundamental issue that time is the finite resource so for costing purposes we must always work out what our minimum hourly take needs to be.

Whether what we charge relates to our calculated cost per hour is somewhat divorced but time always remains the fundamental building block. Even Ron Baker admits that (although it is somewhat burried in his thesis).

I do agree with you but from a different perspective in that we need to look at what underlies your article really is the need to perform, and keep performing GAP analysis in order to reduce costs in order to increase profit.

The actual reality is that costs are X we would like costs to be Y how do we make that so in order to increase our profit.

Our time will always remain the constant immovable variable in that we have up to (say) 16 hours in a day and we want X amount of profit from each one of them... How do we achieve that without being more expensive than the legitimate competition (lets ignore the bookkeepers who will take work at a loss just to work and only think in terms of proper business competition).

Just want to emphasise here, I'm not saying that you are wrong, I'm just saying that for all of the additional layers that we put into the calculations of our fees our time remains the constant by which everything else must be calculated even if the final figure is based upon value rather than time.

For example.

We might decide to charge £100 for a service and know that service will take us 5 hours to compelete so we must know that our costs are less than £20 per hour or it is not going to be worth our time to take the work (unless its a loss leader but thats a whole different debate).

Imagine that we've calculated that currently our time is £12 per hour giving £40 profit on the job.

Where technology really comes into play is by knowing that costs are £60 and time is 5 hours. How do you reduce the time it takes and the costs per hour in order to improve our bottom line?

But note. At every step in reality it remained all about time.

Spamkebab · Expert

That last line was rather spooky, very Twighlight Zone or chilling Hitchcock.

Might just be the voice in my head that i read it with.

geek84 · Senior Member

Hi Folks

Thanks very much for your replies.

Shamus - Does this mean I would need to apply for both a practising certificate and PII insurance? If so, which one would you recommend I apply for first? how long does the whole thing take? Where can I find out about any ICB events taking place?

Krisa - You mention that to get a practising certificate, I need to be an associate member. Does that mean I have to study more i.e. up to level 4?

Thank You.

ICBUK · Guru

Hi,

You would need both a practice certificate and PII if you are with a professional body. If you go to HMRC you don't, but PII is strongly advisable.

You can find a list of ICB events here http://my.bookkeepers.org.uk/events.aspx

geek84 · Senior Member

Thanks for your reply.

Someone above mentioned that to get a practising certificate, I need to be an associate member. Does that mean I have to study more i.e. up to level 4?

Thanks

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Shaun, as if by magic - www.bkpr.co.uk/time-tracking-on-fixed-fees/

Kris

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Right, I'm going to sue, lol.

knew that we were singing from the same hyme sheet Kris.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Afternoon Dave,

But if you take things off line you only help one person where if you post answers on here many people, including those less willing to post questions but still needing answers will be able to see it.

In the case of Manjinder there is the added complexity that they are also final level AAT so people will be interested to read that his AAT status provided that he does not go MAAT does not effect any advice given in relation to ICB but if he does go MAAT on completion of his AAT studies then that will mean that AAT will take prescedence over ICB.

Its a complete minefield, ACCA / anything else being the worst one and by posting answers on here you will get input from AAT, ACCA, CIMA, IAB, ICB, IFA, ACA, bods which tends to be in the form of make a statement, someone disagrees, move forwards, further disagreememt, eventually find the route through the maze... Or as professional bodies call them... Loopholes to be closed!

Which of course does raise the other issue that advice given today is not necessarily relevant tomorrow meaning that on occassion old posts should be accompanied by a health / wealth warning.

For now though, just do the same as the likes of Kris and myself and take chunks of the original question and post answers on here for the general readership rather than specific to the poster.

kindest regards,

Shaun.

-- Edited by Shamus on Saturday 3rd of August 2013 01:07:07 PM

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

Hi Geek84

Welcome to the form and hope the advice you have received above is of help? I note that you are a Training Link student and have gained your level 1 and 2 manual and Level 2 computerised qualifications, therefore you can apply to the ICB directly for your AICB membership. They can also help with your PII. Training Link your provider or your chosen Governing Body will be happy to talk and guide you through your options. You can either call us direct or contact the ICB on 0845 060 2345.

Wishing you the best of luck with starting your new career

Dave

geek84 · Senior Member

Thanks Dave

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

Good Morning Shaun

Yes you are of course quite right, but you do know I have letter blindness and can only see ICB, ATA ACAC IBA are just a blur to me lol (its only a joke) biggrin biggrin biggrin biggrin biggrin

I did see from the responses to the original questions which were answered that Manjinder was still a bit confused which was apparent with the following post.

Someone above mentioned that to get a practising certificate, I need to be an associate member. Does that mean I have to study more i.e. up to level 4?

As this had already been answered I just thought (wrongly it appears) that the poster may find it easier to understand with a telephone conversation and as the questions were ICB related this is why I advised maybe calling the ICB. Kris had already posted a link to the ICB website with regards memberships and James had also explained about memberships!

I know from my own experiences that when I read emails I don't always understand the context of the written word and if and when this happens I seek clarification verbally. I have taken on board what you have said and consider my hands slapped. Only been back a week and been in trouble twice already lol. Maybe I just have one of them faces? lol (its just another joke) biggrin biggrin biggrin biggrin biggrin

Can I clarify Manjinder you do not require any further qualifications to apply for AICB membership £88 and Practicing Licence £82

Right as they say in Russia I am offski before the backlash and going into hiding again.

Have a great weekend

Dave

-- Edited by Dave Campbell on Sunday 4th of August 2013 08:57:48 AM Editied twice as I am a thick git lol

-- Edited by Dave Campbell on Sunday 4th of August 2013 09:04:06 AM

geek84 · Senior Member

Thank you Dave

geek84 · Senior Member

Jut to let you know Dave, yes I was a bit confused earlier. Hence my question - Someone above mentioned that to get a practising certificate, I need to be an associate member. Does that mean I have to study more i.e. up to level 4?

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

Morning Manjinder

I did answer your question in my post above, No you don't need to gain any further qualifications to apply to the ICB for your Associate membership, you have already gained what I required for this.

Hope this helps.

Dave

geek84 · Senior Member

Hi Folks

Sorry just need to clarify a few more queries -

1. I think to be on the 'safe side', I would charge by the task, and not by the hour. This will save any arguments with the client, as to how long it took me to complete the task, particularly that I will be a beginner. Do most of you agree with me?

2. In terms of what tasks I can perform, the link which Kris kindly gave (above) does not work. So I presume, if I call the ICB they will give me some idea of what tasks I am qualified to perform?

3. What questions should I ask and paperwork to ask for when meeting a prospective client the very first time?

4. Do you think it would be a good idea to have clients of not more than (say) 5 mile radius away from me?

Thank You.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

geek84 wrote:
Hi Folks

Sorry just need to clarify a few more queries -

1. I think to be on the 'safe side', I would charge by the task, and not by the hour. This will save any arguments with the client, as to how long it took me to complete the task, particularly that I will be a beginner. Do most of you agree with me?
There are two possibilities, either you are on the client site or not. If on site you cannot hide how long something takes you if off site you can take as long as the task needs.
Re-read Kris and my discussion above as I think that you misunderstand basing our charges on time. We know how long a task will take and base our charges on that but we do not charge the client x hours but rather say that to do the task will cost you x amount as in our minds we will have already calculated how long it will take, we know what we must take per hour to break even, we factor in a profit margin and that gives us a job price.
It would be beneficial for yourself if your first few clients were not on site so that you can hone your skills before being in a position where you are being observed working.

2. In terms of what tasks I can perform, the link which Kris kindly gave (above) does not work. So I presume, if I call the ICB they will give me some idea of what tasks I am qualified to perform?
No problem at all with Kris' link. The issue is with the site editor stopping when it hits a % sign assuming thats the end of the link. I think that you just clicked the link rather than cut and pasting it into the address line.
As that really is the page that you need, try Kris' again using this forced link : www.bookkeepers.org.uk/Membership/Joining%20by%20Examination
As an aside, as an ICB member about to become AICB you really should start reading absolutely everything on the ICB site as not knowing their rules and regulations comes with a wealth warning.

3. What questions should I ask and paperwork to ask for when meeting a prospective client the very first time?
Try these three for starters :
http://www.book-keepers.org.uk/t29054805/meeting-clients-initial-meeting/
http://www.book-keepers.org.uk/t25922812/taking-on-a-new-client/
http://www.book-keepers.org.uk/t33207280/potential-first-client/

4. Do you think it would be a good idea to have clients of not more than (say) 5 mile radius away from me?
I would up that to 20 miles and even then you don't often get too much choice in the matter. You are going up against a lot of competition. I try to restrict myself to a 20 mile radius (South Staffordshire and West Midlands) but my stable includes Kent, Swansea and Edinburgh!

Thank You.

No probs,

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Dave Campbell wrote:
I have letter blindness and can only see ICB.... ATA ACAC IBA are just a blur to me lol
That would be cos your spelling them all wrong, tut. Bet it was James told you that IAB was spelt IBA wasn't it the little miscreant. Hoping to see all of the proper spellings on the TL courses menu imminently, lol.

I did see from the responses to the original questions which were answered that Manjinder was still a bit confused which was apparent with the following post.
If people are having problems understanding a response then other readers would also be having problems so we just keep posting until the original poster understands.
I think that the real key in this discussion is that Manjinder did not know the page of the ICB site showing what he could do even though he is an ICB affiliate about to become an associate.
I think that, if not already done, training providers need to emphasise in their materials the importance of reading absolutely everything from their professional bodies site... Maybe even start testing students on it before allowing them to take their mocks as not knowing it is a sign that students are only studying the minimum to pass the exams rather than reading absolutely everything.
With the ICB its not huge volumes and all new students and members should be able to read and uderstand everything written there within a day.
If people are skimping on their reading there they are going to really struggle when they realise that they will spend half of their life going forwards reading great tracts of websites, books, newsletters, etc. in their day to day work as a bookkeeper.
Someone above mentioned that to get a practising certificate, I need to be an associate member. Does that mean I have to study more i.e. up to level 4?
As this had already been answered I just thought (wrongly it appears) that the poster may find it easier to understand with a telephone conversation and as the questions were ICB related this is why I advised maybe calling the ICB. Kris had already posted a link to the ICB website with regards memberships and James had also explained about memberships!
I know from my own experiences that when I read emails I don't always understand the context of the written word and if and when this happens I seek clarification verbally. I have taken on board what you have said and consider my hands slapped. Only been back a week and been in trouble twice already lol. Maybe I just have one of them faces? lol (its just another joke)
There's no hand slapping. Its a forum. We debate, we argue, we have a laugh, we have disagreements. At the end of the day if ever we meet up we have a pint and a laugh. You may have misunderstood a couple of my posts in the past but when I've explained them, again in writing, it's made sense and you can see how such was intended rather than as it might have been interpreted.
Even when on the phone remember that 55% of communication is body language so unless everyone is off to adopt video phones (couldn't think of anything worse!) that medium too is flawed (and why net meetings will never replace face to face meetings).
Can I clarify Manjinder you do not require any further qualifications to apply for AICB membership £88 and Practicing Licence £82
Right as they say in Russia I am offski before the backlash and going into hiding again.
Mmm, I'm thinking that you don't speak fluent Russian, lol. (nor do I, had a Russian girlfreind for a while but she always spoke English and if I tried speaking Russian she just got annoyed with the stupid westerner who speaks like a baby!)
No backlash matey. Glad to have you on the site.
Also, your cell in the BKN tower cellar is now the cinema room so would be a huge expense plus there's no way thats going to happen before I've been to a screening of Terminator 2 in 7.1 dolby surround sound with foundation shaking subwoofers.
Have a great weekend
Dave

Kind regards,

Shaun.

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

Lol Shaun

Told you before you should be writing comedy you would make a fortune.

You have had a Russian girlfriend as well? Not had a Russian girlfriend as of yet come close a couple of times but I don't do Vodka. You my friend are the United Nations of girlfriends, I will have to PM you to get info of who is the best lol. My Northern one is past her sell by date biggrin (Only joking Chris)

In an ideal world anyone who studies Distance Learning courses would do all their homework before spending any money at all and as you rightly say skip reading is a no no in all scenario's including forum posts biggrin We have students who call in asking who their tutor is when this is supplied within the first couple of pages within the workbooks so it appears we live in the age of the skip reader, I am even guilty of this myself and I would suggest a large proportion of the population are too. Things are never always black and white, why oh why oh why?

As for Video communication, if that ever happened I would lose my Job, when good looks were handed out Bradd Pitt tripped me up and I ended at the back of the queue, I would never sell another course if seen in the flesh lol. Still I have a good heart and a great sense of humour lol. I should be writing this on EHarmony lol.

Also when it gets to having blistered fingertips when typing a reply over and over surly a telephone call could numb the pain assuming one can hold the phone? Interesting Stat that 55% of communication is body language? if that is the case I would have been locked up by now, oops almost forgot I was in the BKN Towers for a few months which brings me on to my cell, so its now the cinema room? Well at least should I be sent there again I will have something to watch instead of having to listen to the UKs Eurovision Song on a loop which I am still having nightmares about.

Thought my spelling of all the other Bookkeeping and Accountancy bodies was funny, hope you appreciated my humour, I will of course spell them correctly from now on.

Well off out for dinner today Shaun so you have a great Sunday and will be in touch soon.

Dave

geek84 · Senior Member

Hi Folks

Once again, many thanks for you replies.

I just have one more query before I ring the ICB tomorrow morning -

Somewhere above I asked the following question -

I think to be on the 'safe side', I would charge by the task, and not by the hour. This will save any arguments with the client, as to how long it took me to complete the task, particularly that I will be a beginner. Do most of you agree with me?

Shamus very kindly gave the following response -

There are two possibilities, either you are on the client site or not. If on site you cannot hide how long something takes you if off site you can take as long as the task needs.

Re-read Kris and my discussion above as I think that you misunderstand basing our charges on time. We know how long a task will take and base our charges on that but we do not charge the client x hours but rather say that to do the task will cost you x amount as in our minds we will have already calculated how long it will take, we know what we must take per hour to break even, we factor in a profit margin and that gives us a job price.

It would be beneficial for yourself if your first few clients were not on site so that you can hone your skills before being in a position where you are being observed working.

I'm still slightly confused (perhaps my skill of English grammar is not as good as you), but do you mean that I should charge by the hour or task for my first few jobs? I take it that it would be beneficial if I 'bring the work home' for my first few jobs , since it will take me rather a long time to complete the tasks.

Thanks

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

It dosn't matter which way you charge. The issue is with your profit which of course is the most important figure to your business.

What I mean in the above reply is that your costs are based on time which feeds into the prices that you charge regardless of whether you tell a client that they are paying for x hours at £x per hour or whether it will cost £x to do the job.

Your time and charge rate are not divorced concepts.

Kris and myself seem very much in agreement over the principle although there may be differences between our practices in the actual application.

Basic nuts and bolts of the answer is that you must fully understand you own costs and the market price of the equivalent of your services as offered by your competitors in order to set the price for your work.

Whether that comes down to saying that it will cost £x or it will take so many hours at £x is not an issue if you are not on the site for the client to see that it is initially taking you longer than the quoted hours.

Worth noting is that if you are on site clients tend to want to pay by the hour and when they are able to tie you to time they will try to get you to work faster so doing the same for less cost to them.

HTH,

Shaun.

geek84 · Senior Member

Thanks Shamus

geek84 · Senior Member

Good Morning Folks

Just to give you an update on my situation -

I phoned up ICB on Monday to update my membership from Affiliate to Associate. I told them that I am currently studying leel 4 of the AAT. The lady asked me to send in the certificates for the AAT qualifications gained so far, and she said I may be due some exemptions of total fees. I am now in the process of sending the certificates. She also mentioned the fact that once I gain my level 4 AAT, I will also be eligible to become a full member, which Dave did mention earlier. Finally, she said she will send me details of how to obtain a practice license.

I will keep you folks updated with all this.

geek84 · Senior Member

Good Morning Folks

After sending my AAT certificates to ICB, I was told that I am not due any exemptions. Any that I was due, have already been applied. I then paid £48 to ICB to upgrade my membership to Associate. The lady said I should get the certificate in the next few weeks.

Next thing would be to apply for PII insurance and Practicing License? Which one should I apply for first, or shall I apply for them at the same time?

In one of the posts, Shams mentions that competition is fierce. If that is the case, it would not even worth me starting my business!! Shall I drop the idea altogether? Shamus also mentions that I should extend my distance for obtaining clients to perhaps a 20 mile radius. However, petrol prices are high. Would it be worth it?

Spamkebab · Expert

If you really want something you have to fight for it Manjinder, your last post sounds like you are willing to give up before you try!

Get stuck in and have a go, it's better to have tried and failed than never tried at all.

geek84 · Senior Member

Thanks

I would be to apply for PII insurance and Practicing License. Which one should I apply for first, or shall I apply for them at the same time?

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

Hi Manjinder

Shamus is correct, of course there is competition, have you read the diary of Mad Liz that she posted on the forum? Without sounding like a parrot gaining your qualifications is all well and good, you have these now and this is where it is up to you to get out there and make your qualifications work for you, some self determination and personal drive can help make you achieve your personal goals, the forum is used to give sound advice and although Shaun has mentioned that there is competition no way was he suggesting that you are certain to fail. PMA Positive Mental Attitude.

Check around your local area for what Bookkeepers are charging locally, try and see if you can offer something others cant, as a member of the ICB contact them and ask for advice, book yourself a place for the Bookkeepers Conference which the ICB are holding in November, check to see if there are any scheduled ICB meeting in your area. Post on the ICB forum your concerns and worries. There are lots of avenues to take and research to do.

As for practicing License and PII I would suggest purchasing both at the same time, again ICB can give advice on this. Don't know if you have gained your Self-Assessment qualification but if not this is something I would advise on gaining. Cant offer any advice on your AAT qualifications but Shaun and Nick Craggs are certain to be able to offer advice with that.

Good luck and don't give up before you have even started.

Dave

geek84 · Senior Member

Thanks Dave

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Manjinder,

its never my intention to put people off working in this industry. I just try to ensure that people are informed of the realities that some training companies, professional bodies, software providers and others sites may hide or gloss over (not pointing any names or naming and fingers there).

I also try to ensure that everyone entering this profession who visits this site has the best start possible in their career as it is so easy to make the wrong decisions or make assumptions, espechially in relation to the amount of work and competition.

The issue with bookkeeping is that it is an easy and relatively cheap profession to enter (talking about entry barriers there, not the complexity of the work).

Any profession that has low entry barriers will attract a lot of interest.

Why do you think it is that almost all employers and agents specify in their job ads that applicants should be AAT or PQ (ACCA/CIMA/ACA)? There is nothing wrong with the ICB or IAB qualifications which teach a sound basis upon which to build a career. The issue is that there are just so many new bookkeepers being created that to put those qualifications in any job ad is just unbolting the gates of hell.

Take a look at the Reed website that tells you how many applicants that there have been for any bookkeeper or accounts assistant role and accross the board, even with the AAT/PQ line in the ad, no matter how low the rate on offer, how difficult the place is to get to or how high the qualification/experience requirement for the role inside an hour of posting there are invariably 100+ applicants... Often paying little more than minimum wage.

When you are looking at this profession think of everything in terms of Michael Porters five forces.

- The threat of new entrants (new bookkeepers, accountancy firms offering bookkeeping services, segment specific businesses such as Payroll and credit control specific service providers)
- The threat of alternate products or services (Software eliminating the need for a bookkeeper)
- The bargaining power of suppliers (In our case I consider this dependance upon others such as close relationships with accountants who may provide supervision or process clients end of period returns and process the filing for your clients).
- The bargaining power of clients (In a market with a lot of competition it is difficult to negotiate higher prices)
- Infighting amongst incumbants (fighting amongst existing practices to achieve area dominance).

When considering things like this I find it best to lock myself away with a white board.

Do SWOT analysis on yourself to work out how to win in your market.

As touched upon by Neil above, don't give up. Work out how to get noticed and how to win in your local market.

Things will not always run smoothly but keeping your eye on the five forces will keep you in a stong position.

Personally I recently fell foul of elements 3 and 5 which I already knew was a threat but hoped would not happen. That head in the sand attitude has has cost me dearly but you brush yourself off and get back on the horse.

If you are clever enough to pass the AAT papers then you are clever enough to work your way through the five forces in order to achieve your goals.

Hope that the above was a little more inspirational than my previous post which was intended only to make you think about the issues that you will face, not to give up.

Good luck with the business Manjinder... Well, unless you set up in my area, lol.

all the best,

Shaun.

Adrian99 · Senior Member

Hello all,

To ad another line I have just applied for 282 Accounts Jobs in the last 3 weeks.
This is after professionally pimped my cv by a famous cv company.

Result: 0 interviews.

Sometimes it feels like there is no point doing this as the wages are just for paying the bills anyway.

This is why I think more and more people are trying to set up on their own. No matter the industry.

Wish everyone a good day.

Adrian

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Adrian,

You'll never get to interview with the approach that you have.

For each role you need to personalise the CV, write a covering note, follow up the CV with a call to discuss the role (and point the agent to the bit in your CV that makes you perfect for the role).

Mailshot CVs never get past the agent.

As for professional CV companies... Shakes lowered head...

www.book-keepers.org.uk/t51814065/professionally-written-cvs/

Seems to me that CV writing companies are just another one of those businesses that crawl out of the woodwork to fleece those looking for work of money that they don't have to spare.

What agents really want is a CV geared to the job that makes you a perfect fit for the advertisment.

Unfortunately their inboxes are so clogged up with candidates that they reject as soon as they open the CV (if they ever get that far if there's no covering letter) that agents get applicant fatigue and even though the perfect person for the role with everything right for the position applies they never get to their CV for all the others that keep arriving.

I'm not saying not to apply for roles but be more selective, apply specific to the role on offer and follow up the CV with a call.

Also keep a log in Excel of every job applied for with follow up comments.

In three weeks I would have expected more like 30 to 50 quality applications rather than 282.

Also remember that not all advertised jobs are different roles.

The same job may appear with half a dozen different agencies. Each that you apply through may forward your CV to the employer. If more than one CV from the same person hits the desk that is should then its an auto reject by an employer even for those perfect for the role as employers will not want to get into an arguement about which agency they pay the fee to.

kind regards,

Shaun.

Adrian99 · Senior Member

Many thanks Shaun,

I need to think twice when applying for jobs.
Maybe quality is better than quantity.

One of my ideas is to see what company I want to work for and give them a call and send cv.

Kind regards,

Adrian

geek84 · Senior Member

Hi Folks

Just to give you an update on my situation -

I applied for Associate membership last week and was told that I should receive my certificate within the next 4 weeks. Along with my ICB certificates, I also sent them copies of my AAT certificates.

However, just to add a bit of a twist to this. Yesterday, I learnt that I passed my last AAT exam, so now I am also AAT qualified. I am not thinking of carrying on to study for acca or cima because I am getting on a bit - by the time I finish, I will be reaching 50 years of age. I am therefore thinking of becoming a MIP (Member In Practice). Do you think that would be a good idea? The biggest problem of course would be attracting clients.

As you know I am also thinking of applying for a practicing license and PII insurance to work as a Book Keeper. If you had the choice, would you work as a Book Keeper or MIP? Of course working as a MIP would attract a greater salary but with it will come a higher work load and stress.

Any advice greatly appreciated.

matt123 · Senior Member

geek84 wrote:
Good Morning Folks

Can someone please provide any thoughts on the above?

Thank You.

I'm sure you need 12 months full time experience to become an AAT MIP so around 2000 hours accountancy work.

-- Edited by matt123 on Monday 16th of September 2013 12:54:22 PM

matt123 · Senior Member

What do you mean by responsibility? Stress? etc? If you are going self employed then I cannot see how the choice of association will affect anything.

You choose your workload. You choose what services you want to offer.

In my opinion you should choose AAT based purely on the fact that potential businesses will more than likely know of them rather than other associations.

-- Edited by matt123 on Monday 16th of September 2013 02:00:37 PM

geek84 · Senior Member

Good Morning Folks

Can someone please provide any thoughts on the above?

Thank You.

geek84 · Senior Member

Thanks for your reply, Matt.

I do have the 12 months work experience.

However, I'm still undecided as to whether to become an MIP or a book keeper. Becoming an MIP would command a better salary but with it comes more responsibilty, work load, and stress!!

Any advice/experience much appreciated.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

I agree with Matt,

most bookkeepers approach accountants for work or need to talk with accountants about clients (current or ex).

The accountants will show you more respect and be more willing to subcontract work if you go to them as an MAAT MIP as that the route that many of them took as a first step to get where they are now.

I think that the issue is more not to do with the great power comes great responsibility but rather with the MIP status comes increased cost that (should be) more than compensated by increased income potential.

If it was my choice I would go MIP but its down to you which way you decide to go as you may in reality find no difference between the two routes. All depends on the peole that you need to deal with and where you expect work to come from.

kind regards,

Shaun.

geek84 · Senior Member

Thanks for your replies, folks.

Sharon Eyre · Senior Member

I too have AAT level 4 and applied for exemptions on my ICB to level 4-I have had to sit the 2nd part membership entrance exam as part of the application

i have my practice licence through ICB but I am also applying to AAT for their MIP too

geek84 · Senior Member

Sharon, does that mean you will be providing both types of services - Book Keeping and MIP?

Sharon Eyre · Senior Member

Hi -I have been a MIP since 2007 with ICB but had ny own business 12 years, I was just advised to get a practise licence with both AAT and ICB for credibility

geek84 · Senior Member

Hi Folks

Could someone be kind enough to advice where I could get PII at a good rate?

Thank U

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Try Arlington (top of the page site offers) which is £78 for site members.

kind regards,

Shaun.

geek84 · Senior Member

Thanks Shaun.

That was the obvious place to look!!

matt123 · Senior Member

I've found trafalgar to be cheapest by quite a bit.