Good Morning Folks

As you know, I am in the process of setting up my own bookkeeping business. However, I would need a name for my practice.

Would you be kind enough to suggest any good 'catchy' names of my business or suggest which websites I could visit to get more ideas?

Thanks in advance

Hi Manjinder,

thats a huge subject and needs to either be split out into a seperate post or alternatively read through the convince me that I don't need Sage sticky which isn't as one sided as it sounds and goes on to talk through all manner of bookkeeping, accounting, tax and Payroll software.

If nothing else that one's a good start point.

kind regards,

Shaun.

Good Morning Folks

I hope you're all well and busy with your bookkeeping businesses or studies.

As you know, I am thinking of starting up my bookkeeping business. However, I am a little nervous about this and was thinking if it would be a good idea for me to do volunteer bookkeeping for a few months, just to get the 'feel' of it. Do you think that is a good idea?

However, the problem that I can see is if I contact a local bookkeeper for volunteer work, don't you think he/she would get the idea that when I'm confident enough to start on my own, I will pinch some of their clients? If so, is there a waty round this? i.e. getting the experience without the bookkeeper feeling threatened that his/her business will suffer?

Thanks

Hi Shamus

Thanks for your reply. Are you saying getting the relevant bookkeeping work experience before I start out by myself is not worth it? Do you think I already have the knowledge to start out by myself?

Why do you think a bookkeeper would not take me on to help him/her for a few hours per day/week?

Thanks

Shamus wrote:

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On that note I laughed my cotton socks off the other day as one of the training companies advertises that there are only 3700 bookkeepers to service 4.8 million businesses in the UK making it sound as though there is a critical shortage of bookkeepers.... Just shows what you can do with figures to paint a picture which may not lie but is several light years from reality.

---

 

So nearly 1300 clients each, no wonder everyone looks so tired!

Shamus wrote:

---

On that note I laughed my cotton socks off the other day as one of the training companies advertises that there are only 3700 bookkeepers to service 4.8 million businesses in the UK 

---

And doesn't HMRC think there are only 10 window cleaners covering the whole of the UK? 

Shamus wrote:

---

No, I answered your question about getting the relevant experience.

You could try and find a bookkeeper to take you on but the only ones that would to my mind are those that are working as accountants and the covenants would be the same as those in an accountancy practice.

Bookkeepers are not going to train the competition if they are not in some way protected from them as experience is the only thing that differentiates bookkeepers already in practice from the thousands of new bookkeepers being created each year for a market that cannot possibly sustain them.

On that note I laughed my cotton socks off the other day as one of the training companies advertises that there are only 3700 bookkeepers to service 4.8 million businesses in the UK making it sound as though there is a critical shortage of bookkeepers.... Just shows what you can do with figures to paint a picture which may not lie but is several light years from reality.

---

 Nice to see you are checking our site out assuming it is the Training Link site you were talking about? What it actually says is that there are only 3700 REGISTERED Bookkeepers. Don't be shy name and shame Shaun and then we can all jump on the bandwagon.

Dave

.. Ive also jueat realised Im totally out of sync with this thread .. as theres another page... So I think Ill just get back to my work and ignore my post because it was answered ages ago !!

 

DELETE !

-- Edited by claireb on Thursday 7th of November 2013 12:35:28 PM

Morning Dave,

good response.

Actually, I'm a big fan of statistics, espechially when I'm giving the presentation.

Nobody with any sense would ever lie about figures used. But nobody really ever has to, its all in the spin.

I think that I mentioned the Dilbert cartoon to you before where it is found out that the companies product is killing clients.

When that statistic is presented to the board it is given the positive spin of there being far fewer customer complaints and that rather than the deaths is the statistic provided to the board.

That is so true of real life!

Financial professionals know this and will always want to disect statistics and get down to the data upon which that is based.

In the quoted example as I said, the figures were not wrong and nobody said that they were, it was a discussion where I required an example of perception over validity.

Also just the clarify. I was never having a dig at Training Link.

I'm just not that subtle as you have probably noticed in the past if I want to say something to someone they know exactly who I am talking to. Thats one of the good things about the site. We don't pussy foot around, we just say that something is wrong.

In this instance though I was not attacking anyone. there were no subtle slurs or pointing fingers.

It was just using an example in a specific context in order to emphasise a point in a response.

Additionally, I would like to say that I appreciate how passionate Garry is about his company and doing an excellent job of training people where they choose the ICB / Sage route.

I think that in this instance my intent was perhaps taken out of context. Genuinely there was no intended attack on TL and all I did was use the figures without reference as an example of a misconception.

On the number of bookkeepers compared to the work available thats a whole different debate (and goes back to the original discussion that I was having with Manjinder above).

Training Link are part of the machine, they may be a good, well oiled part but they are still part of a process geared towards mass production. If they did not then they would fall behind other training providers and at the end of the day we are all businesses and all need to make a profit.

I've mentioned it before to James that really ICB level IV should be where people earn a practice certificate and that would in a single blow solve the market saturation issue whilst not in itself affecting the income of the training companies (for others reading this I also mentioned to James in the post that I'm talking about that those already in practice should not be affected by changes which should be progressive, not regressive).

I appreciate that does however cause a knock back in that fewer people would take this route if they had to spend too long before they were in a position to make any money from it.

All in all I think of it as a big game of Kerplunk with more and more new bookkeepers being poured into the top with insufficient clients (straws in this analogy) to keep them all from coming crashing down.

I do think that the ICB will have to make changes soon as in the areas with high unemployment where those with any get up and go attempt to better themselves by going down routes such as this you end up with a serious bookkeeper to client ratio issue.

But of course, with a nationally recognised qualification one cannot selectively quota area's... Well, unless they went down the franchise route for members in practice (didn't Pitman take that route?) but then that would just see people that would have chosen ICB going IAB or even just setting up unqualified which is the worst possible scenario. So, that doesn't solve the problem and you just end up with less members and less annual income.

I think that things have to change in this area but in a well thought through manner.

Garry Carters original model was well thought out in order to gain market share but now that they are there they need to change the model whilst not allienating those who helped to get them where they are now... I feel thats going to involve dropping completely the idea of bookkeeping and accountancy being totally seperate professions which causes the issue then of why would a market need two AAT's?

I may disagree with the ICB on some things (espechially the new marketing approach) but they provide interesting competition in the market place and competition drives progress. So whilst I may often be seen as a ney sayer I prefer to think of myself as the person who doesn't always tell the naked king how wonderful his new clothes are looking.

We are living in interesting times as the old chinese proverb goes.

kind regards,

Shaun.

In my office I get up to a dozen letters a week from qualified (often recently qualified) bookkeepers offering their services.

I don't have a clue who these people are.

If I were to sub contract work to them what quality work would they produce? Would I just be making a rod for my own back? Would I lose clients on the back of their work? Will it take me twice as long to redo the work that has been outsourced.

Whilst I don't want to burst their bubbles I tell them that I don't have any work that I need to outsource but good luck with your new business (whilst inside knowing full well how many similar small bookkeeping businesses there are cropping up all of the time out there and aware that a good many of them will not be in the business six months from now)... Where they include a SAE I always reply, often with advice on how to fix their CVs (You would not believe how bad some CVs and covering letters are.... Including the professional ones that people have paid good money for).

The key is that the accountants need to know who they are dealing with either from word of mouth or via impressing them at networking events such as the joint IAB / IFA meetings.

Don't expect your website alone to sell you but simultaneously when people visit it don't let it put them off using you.

Never advertise a mobile number as it gives a bad impression. If you don't want to use you own home number directly and still need to pick up via mobile buy another local number from someone like Vonage where your business has a single number for all of its phones no matter where you are.

Going back to the conversation before the thread got blown off track by insult being found where non was intended, in order to work with an accountant you may first have to work for them which comes back to the issue of competition clauses.

There is no sugar coating matters, getting the first few clients is difficult.

In banking they use the term (which actually comes from history of the Dwarves appendix of the Lord of the Rings (which was in the first part of the Hobbit)) that it needs Gold to breed Gold.

In a similar manner it would seem that you need clients in order to breed clients as once you are doing a good job for a couple others follow suit.

Never, ever underestimate the word of mouth as your main marketing tool.

Once you have clients they are your sales force... So treat them nice and always do the best job that you can for them... Without letting them walk all over you.

In general terms consider gaining clients like rolling a snowball down a hill, difficult to get started but quickly grows exponentially if you can get it started.

On the waste of money front, no study os ever a waste.

It is always a misconception to believe that one is buying a job or business when you pay for a course but what you are doing is putting yourself in a better position to make a success of the business if you can just get your foot in the door.

Your investment will pay off evenetually but maybe not in the way that you expect it to.

Worth noting as well is answering technical questions (correctly) on here may open opportunities although such would be a long term plan rather than a quick fix.

Good luck Manjinder and don't despair. There is work out there but you will just need to change your approach in ordeer to find it.

kind regards,

Shaun.

Hi,

When i was in practice we would never sub out work to bookkeepers.  We did it ourselves using the semi-arguement, that the accounts would be much easier to do when we did the bookkeeping so the £30+ charge out rate was saved.  I see people (on another bookkeepers forum) who think that all they need to is get qualified and send some letters to accountants and work will come flooding.  It really isnt the case.  If you had staff who are accountants, but can do bookkeeping (LETS NOT START THIS ONE UP!) wouldnt you rather they did the bookkeeping than someone else.  Only if an accountant hasnt got capacity will they out source it.  And only then will they recomend some who they trust implicitly.  As an accountant if you recomend some cowboy bookkeeper to a client, how does that makie you look.

We had one bookkeeper who I would recomend (behind my bosses back) if someone needed a bookkeeper but wouldnt/couldnt pay £30+ per hour.  And i only recommended them because i had seen what a good job they had done on other clients work.  I wouldnt ever recomend a bookkeeper just because they sent me a letter.

You have to build a relationship with an accountant, and they must have seen your work.  So when you do have clients, never miss the opportunity to go with your client to the accountant for the end of year meeting.  This is where you will pick up work, not from an unsolicited letter.

I know this is difficult when you have no clients, but unfortunatley this is how i see it.

Good luck anyway Manjinder, but you know, just because you have completed the AAT with us, doesnt mean that we wont do what we can to help your career, so you can always give us a call at the office.

All the best

Nick

Whoa Manjinder,

I appreciating how frustrating that it must be. No job, no clients, no income after making an investment in training.

But....

Your posts read as though you are applying to accountants for work.

As indicated by both Nick and myself above that will not get you the clients if you are applying using the spreadshot method.

Accountants are a great source of work but you have to become known to them, they will not outsource work to someone that they do not know and trust.

Your AAT qualification shows that you understand basic accountancy as well as bookkeeping. I assume that you also have a sound knowledge of Sage and Excel.

AAT has given you the foundation skillset that you need.

Now think what your next step should be?

You need experience and that will only come from working for an accountant.

Are you registered with several agencies including Reed for temp work in absolutely anything accounts related? (Sales and purchase ledger work, credit control, etc.).

Have you thought of matters from the opposit side of the desk in "Why would an employer employ me?".

Have you considered how much competition there is in some areas of the country for every available job?

AAT is a foundation qualification that many use to go onto ACA or ACCA. The knowledge that you have gained is sound.

Look at Neil (Spam Kebab) on here as a good example of someone with no prior experience in this field who took AAT and then tried several roles before finding his perfect one.

Of course he struggled but he persisted and did everything in his power to get those doors open.

I the current job market there are no guarantee's.

You are in the same neck of the woods as myself (West Midlands) and this has to be the worst place in the country for finding work or clients. As such I have clients from Kent to Edinburgh but few locals... All gained from word of mouth (plus one of them's a relative).

The area that you are in is not a good one as its absolutely flooded with bookkeepers forcing client expectations over rates down... When one reads the figure about there being 4.8 million businesses out there nobody ever said that 4.7 million of them were bookkeepers... And all of them have set up shop within ten miles of ourselves. lol.

On a more serious note there it is a fact that the higher tyhe unemployment and fewer the jobs the more likely it is for people to think that there is money in this field and in the past the sales techniques of some training companies has indicated unlimited work, high return and ease of entry.

We all know that such is untrue (Just to clarify here before we end up in another misunderstanding, I am NOT talking about Training Link or Ideal).

AAT has given you a much better knowledge base than a bookkeeping only qualification. You are better prepared for questions related to tax and financial reporting.

Just because it has not yet paid for itself do not assume that it never will.

The key to the door to a better income is to tie the qualification that you have to experience that employers want. Start off with low level temping. Even if you feel the work is below you it opens opportunities, exposes you to new acquaintances which may open doors.

Its all about gaining that one break.

I've said it before but worth saying again. AAT does not guarantee work but it puts you in a better position for work when opportunity arises.

sorry, got to go, clients just called and need a chat so they're just on their way around for a cuppa.

I'm posting this unedited so appologies in advance if there are any repeats or poorly phrased bits above,

I'll be back later and we can chat more then,

kind regards,

Shaun.

p.s. this post may get amended once I have chance to read it.

Thanks for your replies, folks.

Many thanks for your reply. Claire.

Could you suggest how I go about developing relationships with accountants?

Thanks

Oops ... Sorry

Hi Manjinder,

 

there is nothing in the ICB which isn't covered by the AAT. where as there is lots in the AAT which isn't covered by icb. So from an academic point there is no reason for further study.

 

however, if the ICB gave you your practicing licence you are adding more services which you can offer. It might be worth ringing them to see if they will give you ab exemption from later studies. There is no reason why not.

 

 don't forget just because you are completed you can still ring premier training for help.

 

kind regards

 

nick

 

p.s. I agree with Brian, from a mobile point of view this was difficult.

Nick

I've just spoken to the ICB who said I may be due some exemptions and they will let me know.

You need 1 years full time equivalent of experience (1950 hours) signed off by an accountant to get an AAT practice licence.

Agreed, it is a catch 22 situation.

I understand Manjinders train of thought. Personally, being MAAT i would apply to become MIP offering bookkeeping services only. If you don't ask you don't get as my good old Nanna used to say (then she used to give me a thick ear for mithering)

Have you actually applied to AAT yet Manjinder?

You have to be MAAT to apply for MIP status, the one years experience signed off by a chartered or MAAT is for your MAAT status not MIP as it is a given that you have 1 years experience by having the letters MAAT after your name, Phew!

Seems you have done the hard bit.

And you have not shot yourself in the foot, don't listen to the bad man, you are now Manjinder MAAT, holder of a qualfication that is recognised in industry and also recognised by the higher governing bodies.

Talk to AAT as well as ICB, you can never have too many bridges to burn.


If you were going to practice under ICB then why pay AAT subs anyway? for one its two lots of annual subs and for two you wouldn't get any benefit from being a member. 

Half my post was deleted and i can't be arsed writing it again.

I was muttering something about all the hard work you put into achieving MAAT status to then throw it away but it was a bit more complex than this.

More complex for me means i wrote 2 more lines.

 

-- Edited by Spamkebab on Saturday 23rd of November 2013 03:38:25 PM

-- Edited by Spamkebab on Saturday 23rd of November 2013 03:59:59 PM

Hi Neil,

think that there's a bit of a catch 22 here for Manjder and please correct me if I'm wrong as I know that you are able to talk to AAT directly about this, but is it not a case that :

If you are an AAT student then you you can practice as a bookkeeper provided that you make no mention of any affiliation to AAT.

Once you escalate membership to MAAT you cannot practice unless you obtain MIP status (requiring experience).

This poses the question as to if you are a student and do not need another body in order to practice then why not simply set up offering bookkeeping services without a third party professional body (appart from the networking opportunities that such membership provides).

If you are MAAT and cannot get a practice certificate through the AAT does that then mean that you have to abandon AAT in order to practice through anyone else (not dissimilar to ACCA rules).

So, if Manjinder is MAAT practicing through ICB does that put him in breach of AAT rules? Or are the AAT rules more like CIMA in that you are allowed to practice provided that you are under someone elses banner as if you had no affiliation at all to AAT (or CIMA) so even though MAAT you would not be allowed to use the MAAT letters at all anywhere for risk of the confussion of clients and potential clients?

Genuine question, I don't know the answer to that but suspect that it may be a situation that Nick or yourself may have encountered?

If thats the case then it would make sense for Manjiner to practice under the the ICB banner making no mention of AAT as if he had not taken AAT and then when he has enough experience to become an MAAT MIP he abandons the ICB which would just have been a practice certificate of convenience (lol, we sound like a bunch of pirates flying under whichever banner suits don't we).

As for the experience question for Manjinder I think that provided that he starts very small (absolutely no limiteds, LLPs or even traditional partnerships for starters) and builds slowly he should be able to able to gain the experience under the ICB banner that he needs.

Everyone has to start somewhere and to many experience under supervision isn't an available option until you have experience... Good old catch 22 again.

And also remember that Manjinder does have credit control experience although I appreciate that can come in many flavours from full on forensic investigation down to call centre type work so may or may not be of use going forwards.

The qualifications are a complete minefield so can fully simpathise with Manjinders plight. Although I suspect that in escalating his AAT membership from student to MAAT he may have shot himself in the foot with being able to be both ICB and being able to ever refer to his letters.

That said, to abandon the letters for one of the bookkeeping qualifications would to my mind in the long term be a mistake.

Just my two penneth,

Shaun.

Hi Neil,

been there done that. Frustrating isn't it.

Sometimes you can get them back by using your browsers back button... Sometimes they're just gone.

Think that you misunderstand my meaning about MAAT status.

Just to be completely clear, my view is that MAAT is a fantastic achievement, one to be proud of and one that gains respect from practice and industry alike.

My point was more subtle and related back to a chat with Frauke that opened my eye's a little some time back to an issue over dual memberships.

Read this post and then go back and reread the original post and you'll see what I actually meant as it seems that you may have slightly picked up the wrong angle if it reads that I was saying that having AAT is shooting oneself in the foot (the line was in relation to escalating level of membership from student, not having the qualification).

If you are an AAT student and member of another professional body then that is fine as you cannot use the letters anyway.

If you move up to MAAT (so can use your letters) my understanding from Fraukes post (cant remember which thread) is that to practice you are expected to move to MIP and using any other professional body to practice would be against the AAT's rules.

If that is true then I can see the reasoning behind that in that the AAT would not want anyone using the letters without a practice certificate through them on the grounds that if you are not experienced enough to practice through them then you are not experienced enough to use their letters and practice through anyone else.

I think that explanation reads a little better. If you now go back and read the original you will see what I was trying to say. (but obviously doing a piss poor job of it).

Anyway, if what you say is true about MAAT status and achieving MIP both requiring the same one year signed off experience then my whole first post was mute anyway.

Which of course would come back to why if one is AAT and can get a practicing certificate through them would you join a different body for a practicing certificate. Makes no sense to me to pay all that money for a quality qualification and then practice under someone elses banner making absolutely no reference to your primary qualification (#1).

kind regards,

Shaun.

#1 not to be confused with those who genuinely cannot trade under their primary qualification.

Arghhhhh just done it again. Going to smash the internet up BRB............

Hi Folks

I've just spoken to the AAT who said I need to become a MIP with them before setting up my practice as a book keeper. In that case, I would not need to show the 12 months work experience since I already have MAAT status (I have more than 5 years experience of credit control).

I then spoke to the ICB who said I can still use their letters after my name but won't get a refund if I cancel my practice license.

And staying that way