Newbie - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Newbie

Violet2005 · Veteran Member

Hello everyone,

My name is Violet and I having been following the forum for a few weeks. I am an ACCA member and I have set up shop as a bookkeeper. Because of my many kids, the viable option for me to earn a living is being self employed. I am now on a hunt for clients and any pointers will be great. I look forward to being a part of this network and I hope I can add value.

ChrisA · Member

Hi Violet,

Welcome to the forum.

I've only been around a short while and have found a vast amount of useful information and lots of helpful people.

Just joined ICB and passed Level 1 Manual bookkeeping yesterday so will be looking for advice on setting up in the near future.

NickCraggs · Guru

Hi Violet,

Welcome to the forum, it is an excellent place to get hints, advice and to have a rant at problem clients. Well done on the ACCA membership, have you got a practice licence through them?

I ran my practice under the AAT banner and it fitted really well around my personal life.

The first client is always the hardest and the most daunting, but when you get a couple you should find that people in business talk to other people in business and soon you will get your name out there.

Any queries please do not hesitate to ask on here, we are a really friendly bunch!

Kind regards

Nick

Violet2005 · Veteran Member

Hi Everyone, Thank you very much for the warm welcome; you have actually put a smile on my face. I don't have a practice certificate yet as I still need another 30 months post qualification experience. My understanding is that in the meantime am allowed to offer bookkeeping services to the public. My job contract ended about a month ago and I have decided not to go back into employment as it's difficult to fit school runs into a proper job. I have 2 clients so far but I now need to start earning a living. Someone please tell it can be done!

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Violet,

welcome to the forum.

Yes, to stay within regulation 8 you can offer bookkeeping to trial balance, payroll and VAT but no advice and no filing which is really frustrating considering how much you know compared to the members of some other bodies who are allowed to offer a full service.

I thought that it was just two years post qualification?

The rules as I understand them are that you need 36 months during or after the qualification in order to get membership. and two years post qualification in order to get a practice certtificate and any part of the three years gained for membership post qualification can also count towards the practice certificate.

Just my understanding but worth checking out as you may be further along than you think (and that would put a smile on your face if it proved true).

Hope that you enjoy being a member here. There are plenty of bookkeepers here in a similar position to yourself so there lots of hands on advice available from those who have been there, done that, got the T shirt, writing the book.

kind regards,

Shaun.

p.s. I'm just a finalist with one paper to go (P7) and have been working under supervision. I'll be able to get membership but the hope of an ACCA practice certificate is still quite a distant one which sometimes feels as though it may never actually be achieved (To the point that I'm actually negotiating currently towards a return to industry (Banking)).

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

p.s. I think that the only way to make anything more than pin money at this considering the ACCA restrictions is to work under supervision.

I did try working as a bookkeeper within regulation 8 but found tie and again that what clients really wanted was a cheaper accountant which regulation 8 won't allow.

There is another thread on the go at the minute in relation to being able to make money as a bookkeeper and that one's well worth a read.

See here : www.book-keepers.org.uk/t54997757/working-as-a-bookkeeper-earning-potential/

Violet2005 · Veteran Member

Hi Shaun. Thank you very much. ACCA is so frustrating and given a choice I would probably give up my membership but because its been a hard slog I might as well keep at it. All the best with P7; nearly there. I am meeting someone starting out in practice and they already have their certificate. I hope I can find a way of working under their supervision. If you don't mind me asking; what are the terms of your supervision?

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Violet,

good luck with the new practice supervision.

My arrangement was supervision in exchange for all of the Sage clients that either needed Sage or could not be convinced to drop it (which generally turned out to be the larger ones).

The situation worked quite well as there are quite a few small businesses who assume that Sage is the software that they need but neither like it nor understand it. So some were quite happy to change when options were given to them (I'm a VT shop) and those that didn't were given over to the excellent hands of a chartered freinds practice.

So basically both of us were getting something out of the arrnagement and once I have an ACCA practice (if ever that happens) I fully intend to help someone else in a similar fashion (which should also help build my business with the (within reason) pick of their clients... Think that I would go for all of the IT contractors (not least as absolutely non of them need to be on Sage)).

The downside of course with the supervisor arrangement is that the supervisor reviews everything that you do and you will find that you don't always agree with the one giving the supervision but there is little that you can do about it.

HTH,

Shaun.

p.s. quite a few people have posted on here about their frustration with ACCA regulation 8. My practice licence is through the IFA and I also toyed with abandoning ACCA which would allow me to offer a full service without supervision but like yourself its taken too much of me to get to here so I am more likely to go back to industry than abandon chartered certified status which is Sooo close now.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Brian,

Concur totally with Nick,

regulation 8 takes precedence over any other bodies rules that you may be a member of which causes a ridiculous situation where you could have someone whose spent years in training, plus have many years of experience gained in practice pre qualification but they are only allowed to do bookkeeping to trial balance.

Conversely you may have someone who is ICB who (no insult intended here, this is complaining about the restrictions of the ACCA, not the quality of ICB people) does not know the full set of financial reporting standards, understand tax to anywhere near the same level, understand accounting and management theory or advanced costing and performance management but is permitted to basically work as an accountant offering clients a full service unaware that they may not be giving clients the best advice.

Where is the level playing field there?

I can understand why the ACCA do it in that practices train people to become accountants and deserve to get at least a couple of years post qualification work form them before they potentially become the competition so it could be considered that ACCA is looking after its existing members.

If everyone was ACCA I could live with that as thats only fair.

As mentioned above though where that logic comes off the rails is where others have less stringent expectations of their members they can set up in competition but I suppose that the reasoning behind a lack of concern from the ACCA over that is the assumption that the public will expect accountants to be chartered or chartered certified.

Where that falls down is from my experience when people go to an accountant they believe that the accountant is properly qualified but not once have I had anyone ask me who I am qualified with making it very much a case of smoke and mirrors in that clients believe something to be true even though one has never specifically said or advertised such.

Thats also true of the media where it seems every theft from a client is blamed on the "accountant" yet invariably it turns out that the accountant was not actually qualified with anyone.

One has to ask, if a member of Joe public dons a police uniform and robs a bank does that mean then following the same logic that a police officer robbed a bank? I think not but it would seem that anyone who wants to call themselves an accountant can and is believed by all but those within the profession to be such.

I think that really there are only two ways forwards. Either ACCA drops regulation 8 in its current form or accountancy (espechially the level of knowledge required to call oneself an accountant) becomes legally defined and protected.

The issue with that last option is that it would see everyone who is not an accountant restricted by the equivalent of regulation 8 in that people would be allowed to offer bookkeeping to trial balance, VAT and Payroll calculations but no filing and no advice.

And the loss of affordable one stop assistance is really not what micro businesses need.

lol, started out a reply and it became a mission statement. My God, I'm turning into Jerry MacGuire.

kind regards,

Shaun.

-- Edited by Shamus on Thursday 19th of September 2013 11:08:10 AM

Treggy76 · Veteran Member

Hi Violet,

It's so good to see yet another mum out there willing to graft so you have my immediate respect!! I only recently became a member and found this forum and it really is the best one I came across. There's always someone around to help. Don't give up on the membership thing, I've been studying bookkeeping and Payroll for what feels like an eternity and looking to go solo and follow in my mums footsteps. I do the books for my neighbour (keeps my fingers in the pie as his tracking of money is diabolical lol) and I think most clients will come from word of mouth and 'who knows who' sort of thing, as he has a couple of people he knows and will put the word around for me in my local area when i'm ready along with me advertising. As I said - don't give up, along my journey I have (and still have) kept coming across another problem that rears it's ugly head but I'll just keep going.

Congratulations on getting as far as you have, give yourself a huge pat on the back as it's really hard when you have kids too.

So good luck with it I'm sure you'll go far.

Lisa :)

Treggy76 · Veteran Member

Oh, PS....Really good luck on the P7 Shaun - i'm sure you'll sail it!!! But ......DON'T DO ITTTTTT....don't revert to the dark side!!!!

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Hi Violet,

Just a thought, but would you consider applying for exemptions or sitting entry exams with either ICB or IAB? By gaining qualifications under their umbrella and using them as your qualification within your advertising, then perhaps you could offer a more wide ranging bookkeeping service sooner rater than later. I am not sure, however, if this would still be in breach of the ACCA regulations and perhaps Shaun could clarify yae or nae.

Rainoo · Veteran Member

Hi Violet,

Welcome to the forum! I'm a newbie to this forum myself and have found everyone very helpful so far ;)

I have just completed levels 1 - 3 in computerised accounting for business so that I could introduce sage accounting to my employer's business. Currently have no plans to expand on my limited bookkeeping knowledge and skills, but who knows what the future holds...

Wishing you the best of luck for your bookkeeping business :D

Rainoo ;)

NickCraggs · Guru

Brian McVean wrote:
Hi Violet,

Just a thought, but would you consider applying for exemptions or sitting entry exams with either ICB or IAB? By gaining qualifications under their umbrella and using them as your qualification within your advertising, then perhaps you could offer a more wide ranging bookkeeping service sooner rater than later. I am not sure, however, if this would still be in breach of the ACCA regulations and perhaps Shaun could clarify yae or nae.

Hi Brian,

This would seem the sensible option, but unfortunately it is a nae, as regulation 8 overides everything. It is crazy but it is the way ACCA have it for some reason.

ICAEW were fine with me practising under the AAT whilst i was studying as long as i don't mention IACEW but ACCA are far more draconian.

Kind regards

Nick

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Cheers for clarifying that Nick, much appreciated.

matt123 · Senior Member

Hi Shaun,

Do you say that you have a practice licence with IFA and you are studying ACCA?

Is it just ICB,IAB and AAT that are not allowed to practice (except bookkeeping) alongside ACCA?

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

As an ACCA student you can practice as ICB or IAB or AAT or IFA or anyone, even just MLR from HMRC... BUT... you must either be supervised by a suitably qualified accountant or only offer services up to trial balance (plus VAT and Payroll).

I have supervision from a chartered.

Hal · Veteran Member

Agree with Shaun in that I have only ever been asked if I am "qualified" rather than who I am "qualified" with.

In the Legal Sector solicitor is a protected term and it is actually a criminal offence to hold yourself out to be a solicitor if you are not.

However even if someone is a qualified solicitor; if they have spent the last 10 years doing employment law they may not be the best person to act for you on the sale of your house.

Hal MAAT FFA FFTA

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Excellent explaination as usual Shaun,

I can completely understand the stance of ACCA as their fully qualified members will be dealing with a far higher level of accounting that the members of ICB, IAB or AAT and must be seen to be compitent in the workplace. The ICB's remit has always been to promote bookkeeping as a profession and I think that people now recognise bookkeeping as a way of making a half decent living. To protect their own image the ICB have pretty strict do's and dont's for their members, ensuring they don't get in over their heads. From our own end we would always advise that ICB Members in practice always seek the advice of a Chartered or Certified Accountant where they encounter a complex situation.

Violet2005 · Veteran Member

Am I allowed to swear coz all I would call ACCA afew things. I have found an accountant who will supervise me and sign off accounts. Question is do I advertise and look for clients under his company or my own business? Thank you everyone. I am sure I am going to love it here.

RobH · Expert

If a qualified ACCA member practised under the umbrella of ICB or IAB, I assume that is fine but they could not then advertise themselves as ACCA? If a potential client asked are you qualified, surely you can say 'I passed all my ACCA exams' and let them make their own conclusions or even say 'yes passed ACCA but practise under IAB' Is that possible. If so, then after 3 years or however long it is, can you go back to ACCA and say you've had practical experience and get the certificate? Sorry if this makes no sense (but I am just a humble ATT!)

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Rob,

nope, sorry, absolutely not.

The rules as you explain them are more in line with the much better more student freindly CIMA approach.

if you are a student of ACCA then regulation 8 takes precedence over absolutely anything and everything else so if you were ICB and the ICB allowed you to produce accounts even where you do not tell anyone that you have any affiliation with the ACCA you would not be allowed to produce accounts due to affiliation (even though secret) with the ACCA.

This is what peoples big issue is over regulation 8 as it means that you cannot get to a practice certificate without working for or under the supervision of someone that the ACCA deems qualified (not necessarily chartered or chartered certified) for at least two years post qualification.

There are some people out there who are ACCA practicing under the ICB (amongst others) banner but if they are offering anything more than is allowed under regulation 8 (bookkeeping to trial balance, VAT and payroll) then they would lose their ACCA membership and be charged at least £800 for the privelage. (Thats the minimum fine that I've ever read for an ACCA disciplinary hearing).

Why then you ask would anyone go ICB who is ACCA.

Well, there's the additional support, networking and MLR cover and its very much down to individuals to make the call as to whether that is worth the expenditure.

In my own case where there are too many bookkeepers around me and not enough businesses for them after a couple of years with an ICB practice certificate I decided that it wasn't. I then went direct with HMRC for MLR for a while and then went to the IFA when I realised that the bulk of the membership seem to be refugee's from other bodies including a large contingent of ex ACCA bods who found it impossible to work within regulation 8.

The above said and much as I like the IFA they are still not the ACCA and I for one could not bring myself to actually abandon the qualification at the final hurdle when its taken so long to get to here.

As for humble ATT that one's a fine qualification matey and one that I fully intend to pick up as CPD once ACCA is firmly under my belt (wouldn't know what to do with myself if I didn't have any exams to look forwards to).

Worth noting as well that any work gained on a self employed basis as a bookkeeper does not count towards practical experience unless it was supervised by a suitably qualified accountant.

so, one could work 40 hours a week for ten years as a bookkeeper and it would still not even count as an hours experience towards an ACCA practice certificate.

Regulation 8 is a very cruel and draconian rule that many do not appreciate the magnitude of when they sign up for ACCA and by the time that they do realise they have given up too much of their time, life and money... And also grown to love the qualification so once you're in and past the first five or six papers it's too late change to a different path.

kind regards,

Shaun.

RobH · Expert

It's a crazy world Shaun! I understand that it is important to uphold the integrity of the body but unless they only want to recruit members by the more traditional routes of graduates going to large firms it really obstructs the more mature people with a lot of real life experience and a sensible approach to accountancy.....I bet Violet never expected her thread to end up here!

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Tell me about it!

My impression with regulation 8 is that its geared towards stoping competition fom those without a practice certificate but makes no allowance for the fact that not everyone out there is ACCA so it actually ends up punishing ACCA people for choosing this path and attempting to do everything correctly.

As you say, by its nature it does favour the more traditional approaches into the business although simply having ACCA PQ status combined with a practical knowledge of bookkeeping does open doors to permanent employment and the distant hope of achieving a practice certificate.

Even if I never get to use the letters on a letterhead I still would not have chosen one of the other bodies as the qualification really is second to non for the knowledge that it ingrains.

Quite right, sorry Violet. You'll get used to this though in that threads seldom end up where one expects them to.

Violet2005 · Veteran Member

I am loving the direction of the thread. I have toyed with joining IFA but put the idea on hold. Next option was to get my hubby to open up an accountancy firm and work for him considering anyone can call themselves an accountant but that won't get me any closer to a practicing certificate. I am now going to be supervised but I am not sure if I can advertise accountancy services other than just bookkeeping.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Ah, but there's a flaw in that cunning plan in that although your husband can quite legitimately with no prior experience set up an accounting practice and offer the full range of services, he would not be deemed by the ACCA worthy to be in a position of supervision over an ACCA affiliate so you would not be allowed to work for him in anything other than a bookkeeper capacity.

Now the above said, we are talking about hubby setting up a business, you working within it but making no mention of ACCA anywhere and you are supervised by someone who is not your husband.

Your husband advertises the services which you perform under supervision of a qualified practicing accountant.

Shhhh. keep it quiet, think that you just found a hole in regulation 8. lol.

Actually, to me that all sounds quite legitimate but its got to be worth running by the guys at ACCA first.

They are quite freindly and helpful even if they do have a tendency towards No.

However, even if they say no to working through your husbands business (can't see why they would but just putting it out there) you have full supervision from a qualified practicing accountant so you don't actually need your husbands business (although I feel that arrangement could make things easier for you).

As I say, give the ACCA a call and get an answer direct from the horses mouth so to speak.

On a linked note which we're chatting about regulation 8, have a read of 8(2.1(i(iv)))) (page 56, here : www.accaglobal.co.uk/content/dam/acca/global/PDF-members/rulebook/acca_2013_rulebook.pdf)

Which states that if you are a member of any professional body that is an IFAC member from anywhere else in the world and you hold a practicing certificate through them then you can practice in the UK even whilst a student of the ACCA provided that one makes no mention of any affiliation to the ACCA. (the paragraph starts off with a residency test but then slips in "or" which I think many miss).

But, if you are a member of another UK IFAC body with a practicing certificate you cannot.

How unfair is that clause!

Violet2005 · Veteran Member

Hi Shaun. There are always loop holes I suppose. I have my own business and the accountant supervising me has his own company. What I am unsure of is if I can advertise full accountancy services or anything accounts should be advertised under the chartered's firm. How do you advertise your services?