Thanks for your reply, Shaun, a lot in there to think about! Thanks, of course, for taking the time to have a look at it, with less than three weeks 'til deadline, I should imagine it's a busy time for everyone!

Thanks, also for your recommendation on the David Cox reference book. It's not the first recommendation I've had on this, so I'll be sourcing one imminently and, as suggested, reading it during this self-imposed cooling-off period.

I do tend to go full-tilt for new things and it's not uncommon for me to pull an 60-80 week out of sheer personal investment, but I do appreciate that adopting a new philosophy is far more cerebral than completing assignments.

On the AAT/ICB choice and my envisaged pathway, I looked at that as a way for me to be able to obtain practical, real-world experience of books and accounts from a relatively diverse selection of industries and companies, whilst allowing myself the potential gain a foothold and build bridges with accountancy firms in the area. Rose-tinted glasses off, I understand from what you've outlined that it might be less than realistic of me to expect such a smooth entry into this career path, but I should suppose that the first few months after qualification would be to do with proving to myself the viability of this as an initial side income. The primary focus is still the Limited company, which I will continue to run, but having a modest amount of bookkeeping clients that allow for some income, as well as provide some towards future study is the longer-term goal, with, as you mentioned, the satisfaction of contributing to small businesses' growth and development. My industry is quite incestuous, so a lot of collaborative discussions occur between business owners, from the more creative facets to business matters. I've always had a fondness for helping people achieve.

I've been hesitant to look deeply into AAT, for fear of turning into a bit of a magpie about the whole shebang, but I'm sitting down with some reading on it just now. I'll most likely be back quite soon with less vague and broad-sweeping questions and will look to speak more with training providers.

Thanks again for your response!

Hi Rob,

the level II statement is (almost) no longer true.

The ICB are changing things from April so that all new bookkeepers must pass level III before being let loose with Practicing Certificates.

To me that makes a lot more sense so kudos to them for making a good move there.

kind regards,

Shaun.

Shamus wrote:

---

Hi Rob,

the level II statement is (almost) no longer true.

The ICB are changing things from April so that all new bookkeepers must pass level III before being let loose with Practicing Certificates.

To me that makes a lot more sense so kudos to them for making a good move there.

kind regards

Shaun.

---

 Hi Shaun,

 

 

The ICB are making changes but although there is to be movement of topics between levels, the overall structure isn't changing too much. Here is my (very) basic take on it:

1.       What are now Levels I, II & III will become Levels II, III & IV. , So, it will still be the case that at the end of a students "2nd" level of study they'll be able to practice. Well, I hope that made sense!!

2.       A computerised element is to be added to the new Level II (current Level I) to give students an earlier knowledge of a vital skill, to aide with the gaining of experience at an earlier stage of their progression.

3.       The subjects of Partnerships & Not for Profit accounts will be moved to the new Level III (Current Level II). This new Level III will lead to Associate Membership of ICB.

 

Important for all current ICB Associate Membership holders: the ICB will provide a period of grace for you to retain your Associate Membership, but eventually youll need to complete the additional exams (I think theyll be home based) re these additional subjects.

 

TO ALL STUDENTS CURRENTLY STUDYING TOWARDS THESE QUALOFACTIONS:

Please dont panic. Whoever your training provider is should have systems in place where they will deal with the change in an appropriate manner. 

Brian McVean wrote:

---

Shamus wrote:

---

Hi Rob,

the level II statement is (almost) no longer true.

The ICB are changing things from April so that all new bookkeepers must pass level III before being let loose with Practicing Certificates.

To me that makes a lot more sense so kudos to them for making a good move there.

kind regards

Shaun.

---

 Hi Shaun,

 

 

The ICB are making changes but although there is to be movement of topics between levels, the overall structure isn't changing too much. Here is my (very) basic take on it:

1.       What are now Levels I, II & III will become Levels II, III & IV. , So, it will still be the case that at the end of a students "2nd" level of study they'll be able to practice. Well, I hope that made sense!!

2.       A computerised element is to be added to the new Level II (current Level I) to give students an earlier knowledge of a vital skill, to aide with the gaining of experience at an earlier stage of their progression.

3.       The subjects of Partnerships & Not for Profit accounts will be moved to the new Level III (Current Level II). This new Level III will lead to Associate Membership of ICB.

 

Important for all current ICB Associate Membership holders: the ICB will provide a period of grace for you to retain your Associate Membership, but eventually youll need to complete the additional exams (I think theyll be home based) re these additional subjects.

 

TO ALL STUDENTS CURRENTLY STUDYING TOWARDS THESE QUALOFACTIONS:

Please dont panic. Whoever your training provider is should have systems in place where they will deal with the change in an appropriate manner. 

---

So what your basically saying is that its all smoke and mirrors and that we are still going to have a flood of bookkeepers hitting the market that are dangerously under equiped for the level of work that they need to be able to perform in the 21st century. (basically if they cannot act as accountants in the SME market (give basic competent tax advice and prepare accounts) they are about as useful to SME's as a pork pie in a synagogue).

The line about the grace period is at odds with what has been discussed with Dave in a seperate post where it is stated that everyone currently holding an ICB practice certificate will not be affected by the change.

Darn it all, until your post I was really happy that the ICB seemed to be really moving in the right direction to try and slow the tide of bookkeepers whilst not affecting those already in practice.

Now you go and lift the curtain and reveal that its all just musical chairs.

p.s. if your wondering why I'm a stroppy git today its because with just a few days to go where I should have just been doing a clients self assessment I'm currently sorting out a mess involving the previous bookkeeper having no perception about the AIA, or use of home, or what expenses are allowable, and the client having gone through three years knowing nothing about mileage allowances.

 

 

 

Shamus wrote:

---

Brian McVean wrote:

---

Shamus wrote:

---

Hi Rob,

the level II statement is (almost) no longer true.

The ICB are changing things from April so that all new bookkeepers must pass level III before being let loose with Practicing Certificates.

To me that makes a lot more sense so kudos to them for making a good move there.

kind regards

Shaun.

---

 Hi Shaun,

 

 

The ICB are making changes but although there is to be movement of topics between levels, the overall structure isn't changing too much. Here is my (very) basic take on it:

1.       What are now Levels I, II & III will become Levels II, III & IV. , So, it will still be the case that at the end of a students "2nd" level of study they'll be able to practice. Well, I hope that made sense!!

2.       A computerised element is to be added to the new Level II (current Level I) to give students an earlier knowledge of a vital skill, to aide with the gaining of experience at an earlier stage of their progression.

3.       The subjects of Partnerships & Not for Profit accounts will be moved to the new Level III (Current Level II). This new Level III will lead to Associate Membership of ICB.

 

Important for all current ICB Associate Membership holders: the ICB will provide a period of grace for you to retain your Associate Membership, but eventually youll need to complete the additional exams (I think theyll be home based) re these additional subjects.

 

TO ALL STUDENTS CURRENTLY STUDYING TOWARDS THESE QUALOFACTIONS:

Please dont panic. Whoever your training provider is should have systems in place where they will deal with the change in an appropriate manner. 

---

So what your basically saying is that its all smoke and mirrors and that we are still going to have a flood of bookkeepers hitting the market that are dangerously under equiped for the level of work that they need to be able to perform in the 21st century. (basically if they cannot act as accountants in the SME market (give basic competent tax advice and prepare accounts) they are about as useful to SME's as a pork pie in a synagogue). Not far away from what I expected you to say Shaun. Don't panic there will still be enough work for you. The more you run the propoganda that bookkeepers can't complete accounts properly or help SME's or MSME's then someone might actually believe you, I doubt it though. Anyway, I'll not get into an argument/discussion over this.

The line about the grace period is at odds with what has been discussed with Dave in a seperate post where it is stated that everyone currently holding an ICB practice certificate will not be affected by the change. I cannot comment on Dave's comments. However, current AICB's will be able to complete accounts for sole traders. Until they complete exams forn the new elements then Partnerships & NfP organisations are off-limits.

Darn it all, until your post I was really happy that the ICB seemed to be really moving in the right direction to try and slow the tide of bookkeepers whilst not affecting those already in practice.

Now you go and lift the curtain and reveal that its all just musical chairs.

p.s. if your wondering why I'm a stroppy git today its because with just a few days to go where I should have just been doing a clients self assessment I'm currently sorting out a mess involving the previous bookkeeper having no perception about the AIA, or use of home, or what expenses are allowable, and the client having gone through three years knowing nothing about mileage allowances.

 

 

 

---

 

Hi all,

Just before I go home I just want to say I think there might be some confusion.

Regarding ICB: yes you will need the Level III before you can practice, which will be the national standards level III.

ICB has always required ICB standards Level II to practice, which was actually closer to Level III national standards anyway.

So it will be harder and take longer to get a practice licence, and there has been some shuffling regarding where clubs and charities come in to it all.

Nothing has been officially released yet, but they are working on the information at the moment.

 

I also want to point out that there are some comments this forum like 'saturated market' and this kind of fear of bookkeepers flooding the market, as if to say there is no work out there.

Yet I have personally spoken to some of you on here regarding hiring staff or taking on subcontractors because of too much work. Why do you not respond?

Many people read this forum but do not comment, some are thinking of becoming bookkeepers, many are probably accountants and business owners etc. and they read these un-challenged statements and probably think the bookkeeping profession is full of 'dangerously under equiped' people who cannot get any work.

This is obviously untrue so stick up for yourselves.

I'm not saying every bookkeeper gets 100 clients from day 1, or that every bookkeeper is doing well, but it is hardly a saturated market, and it is growing.

Just check out this photo from the last ICB conference, 100's of bookkeepers passionate about the profession, expanding their knowledge, networking and growing their business

Having said all that they are ICB Bookkeepers, maybe others are not doing so well?

Jackson5 wrote:

---

Hi

Newbie here who is debating what body to join, been in touch with a couple of companies and gone backwards and forwards asking the same questions of each, looking at AAT and ICB, with a view of hoping to start on my own or working for a company. I have spoken with someone called Dave (who I understand uses this forum) from Training Link who has explained to me the new syllabus changes within the ICB and although he has been extremely helpful I am still a wee bit confused after looking at the ICB website. Dave explained to me the advantages and disadvantages of using Sage Software and it all made perfect sense and what I was told was after further research true and accurate, however the ICB website tells me that to take the ICB computerised exam I will need a full version of computerised software and not a training version which Daves company provide. I was assured the ICB statement was incorrect and the software provided by Training Link is adequate to sit the ICB exams? Does anyone know if this is true?

I also raised questions about what exemptions I would get if choosing to go down the ICB path and later looking at joining AAT? Again I was advised if l completed the ICB Complete package I could go straight in to AAT level 4 with some providers but advised best start at level 3. After reading the above I am more confused than ever, obviously if choosing to invest my hard earned money in a training course I need to be sure what is the right one for me based on my personal professional agenda. There seems to be some conflict on this forum with regards the ICB as an awarding body.

Are there any ICB students or Bookkeepers on here who have succeeded to start their own practice or find employment. I was told that no matter what qualifications I achieve that is down to personal drive and not to believe any promise of an expected salary?

Before I make my investment any advice would be much appreciated.

Lyn

---

 Hi Lyn,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

What Dave has told you is correct in that the ICB computerised exams are generic and as long as you are using a suitable bespoke accounting program then you'll be ok. Re the qualification changes, all providers should be well prepared as they've been given suitable warning, although the final detail was only supplied just before Christmas. From our own perspective no student will be inconvenienced, and I'm sure TL will be the same.

 

Re jumping from ICB to AAT it will come down to what certain providers agree to. There are many posts on here suggesting L3 AAT would be the best entry level, but I have heard from numerous students that they've managed ok joining at Level 4. Ultimately, I understand that it's your preferred providers decision.  

 

Good luck with whatever route you go down.

Brian McVean wrote:

---

---

  Propaganda, lol.

Don't put words in my mouth and don't try to be sarcastic Brian. Lowest form of wit and all that J Recently displayed in a recent advertising post re franchise possibilities!! Im only providing an opinion on how I perceive your posts.

But I think that in some instances you may have been reading what you thought that I had written rather than what was actually written. Or perhaps reading this post but with another one in your memory.

Each of my posts needs to be read totally seperately as in one I may have a grievance with a professional body and in another I may be complimenting them on something else.

I've never said that properly trained bookkeepers are do not do an excellent job in the SME market. Just look at many of the excellent contributors that we have on here. Youve just posted that under equipped bookkeepers will be flooding the market, with no regard of how they have been trained. Im sure you are aware that many contributors and future users of this forum are/will be ICB qualified. Why should they bother to continue to tune in if their qualification if constantly demeaned?

If ICB people do not want the right answers, or prefer to wait a while for an answer, or just don't care whether they get an answer or not then they are free to go and use other forums.

What I have said time and again is that it is too easy, and too quick for people to get from no knowledge or experience to being in practice. Whats the old football phrase, if you are old enough, you are good enough.

That makes no sense to me at all. Must be a football thing.

Therefore, if a student has taken time to qualify, using a reputable training provider, why should they not practice, using the support services that are available to them?

I've been saying that some of them were practicing too early which is why the ICB has been having so many compliments recently on what seemed like a move to increase the knowledge base before people were allowed to practice.

Via HMRC you can register as a bookkeeper with no recognised qualification. This is why gaining a recognised qualification is vital for keeping standards high, including ICB.

Agreed. I've never told anyone not to study and I always encourage people to study at the highest level possible.

If you were churning out Sage data entry clerks thats one thing but your not, you are supposed to be producing competent bookkeeprs that in the modern age are basically expected to work as accountants to small and micro businesses. Seems aimed at me/IDEAL personally,

Thats not right..... Just had to read that sentence back to myself a couple of times as I know how I meant it to read but I think that I can see your take on it.

The intent of the sentaence was stating that the intent is that you are producing people capable of the work, not Sage data entry people. Which was intended to emphasise that people should be at (the current) level III rather than Level II.

Fairs fair and I appologise if that bit read incorrectly. We're still argueing but there was no insult intended there. So sorry on that one and to anyone reading this please do not miscnonstru that anything said was in any way again Brians or Ideals competence at what they do.

but weve been providing training in this field for 30 years and know what a student needs to be properly prepared. Can't speak for others though, which is why sweeping generalisations are not appropriate.

SMEs and MSMEs are exactly the businesses that those qualified via ICB should be aiming for.

When they are knowledgable enough to help those businesses which to my mind starts at the current level III.

Level II was not preparing people for that which was why the news that people would not be able to practice until level III was received so well. (And it was me that checked to make sure that the change would not affect members already in practice... Do you think that I would ask that if I was not concerned about bookkeepers in practice!). Personally, I know many, many students who are qualified to that level and doing very well for themselves. Do they deem themselves fully qualified.no; they seek support and advise whenever required. Do they provide any less a service as say, you, in providing P&L a/c and Balance Sheet for sole traders? Id guess not. Granted, many would add self assessment taxation to their skill set, increasing their services.

Its a case that we all at times live in a fools paradise of giving advice without realising what we do not know.

nobody can know everything in relation to this business but at some stage there needs to be a call that one knows enough not to be dangerous to our clients.

The more that I learn the furhter along that slider moves but being a realist I see no reason that people could not do a competent job for clients at level III (or having prior knowledge, or other qualifications).

If you want to argue with me then argue against something that I have said rather than making stuff up on the fly (on a public forum?) in the hope that if you throw enough shit around some of it will stick. Strong, but Im sure the above states my opinion. 

I think that we're both strong willed. I listen to the other people arguements and try to be fair. You must have noticed how often my own debates have been swayed on the forum.

But...

Like many others I'm on the front line and on a day to day basis I deal with the fallout of clients who have been badly advised or not advised at all.

As indicated earlier I'm in the middle at the moment of a set of books that I shouldn't even be doing. It was supposed to be a simple self employed self assessment but its ended up having to basically scrap a large chunk of the bookkeeping that the client has paid for and cannot afford to pay for again so I'm basically sorting out this mess on the basis of future income from the client.

This is not an isolated incident.

To my mind a competent bookkeeper should have AAT level IV level of knowledge. Whether thats acquired through AAT or ICB or IAB or anyone else or indeed just reading the right books I really don't care. I just expect a bookkeeper whoo is acting in accountancy camacity in the SME market to be able to give sound, competent advice that helps their clients.

---

 

---

 

Welcome to the forum Jackattack!

As you say, we'll agree to disagree.

There are plenty of great ICB bookkeepers out there, many I am sure trained by your good selves.

You need to get away from this idea that if you disagree with a professional body or training company on one matter that one is disagreeing with them on all matters. Non of us is right all of the time and no matter how long we have been in business we are only ever our last decision / statement / project.

You seem to assume that my issue is with the qualification where the actual issue is simply that people have been allowed to practice too soon which I thought until your post had been fixed.

So, yes, people may have invested Time, effort and expense and many of them with current Level III under their belt (or alternate knowledge, experience and qualifications) do brilliant jobs for their clients.

My issue is with mopping up after those who come from scratch and have not yet invested enough time, enough effort or enough expense but are still in practice.

There are a good many who have struggled through picking up information from those already in the business through sites such as this and have become successful. On that basis I was concerned about whether the ICB would expect these people in practice to take more exams as happened back in 2010/11 which was why I asked Dave the question.

Nothing that Dave or James said in that other thread indicated that those already in practice would need to take additional exams and the changes were for newcomers, not existing members in practice.

If it was a case that there were one or two people coming into the industry before they were ready then they would be absorbed and brought up to speed by the likes of ourselves.

The problem is that there are just so many that the only answer is to stem the flood by improvements at source.

I do appreciate that telling someone that it will take longer and cost more would not be good for a training companies business as you would be getting closer to ICB and AAT being similar cost and study time and in that scenario AAT wins on the back of employability of its members.

I am not saying that such is fair there. The knowledge base of a fully trained ICB person should not be that much different to an MAAT. The issue is historical in that many accountants trained AAT and they expect those who work with / for them to have followed the same route.

I think that you need to get away from this black and white view Brian that either people perceive everything as good or everything as bad. The issues are in relation to bookkeerers going to market before they had properly done the qualification, not with the qualification as a whole.

Thats always been clear in my posts including the one's where I was complimenting James on the good move that they had made in stemming the tide of bookkeepers not prepared for current market expectations of the role of a bookkeeper.

So, lets lose this idea that I'm anti ICB. Or anti training company or indeed anti Brian McVean. All that I am looking for is bookkeepers hitting the market who are under no illusions as to the knowledge base required for this task.

If people have no prior experience in this business then in the current market with a few exceptions thats the current level III.

Those who into this before at level II may have struggled more but they fought their way through. Nowadays with the number of new bookkeepers being produced by training companies I think that they would struggle far more.

And please don't say that having level II is better than those offering services with nothing. Thats obvious. But I'm saying that level II with no experience and no alternate knowledge is not sufficiently different as neither are truly prepared for the market that awaits them.

And if you are deluding yourself that the market isn't flooded put a job ad on PPH for a bookkeeper, must be qualified, need to do all bookkeeping for a sole trader, accounts, self assessment and filing. Budget £10. and see how many responses that you get!

The ICB have a really good brand that they could do a lot with but (Jerry McGuire mission statement moment here) there needs to be fewer, better bookkeeping practices... Or more to the point the existing one's need time to build without being eternally undercut and the only way to do that is to slow the tide and increasing the entry criteria to gain a practice certificate is the perfect way to do that.

By all means teach people basic bookkeeping for employment but for self empoyment there's a whole different skillset and wider required knowledge base before people in the current market should contemplate setting up in practice.

Right, lets go back to Dave being right and you being wrong and I'm a happy man.

James, if you read this, as you say, the detail hasn't been released yet so you still have time to tweak what could be a real opportunity for the ICB to move up a step here (start including ethics in the syllabus and get recognition by IFAC and make that three steps).

Just to emphasise in the footnote as sure some people will have skipped some of the above. Despite Brians assumptions I am not anti ICB and I am not anti ICB members in practice. I am all for trying to ensure that this profession is as good as it can be which at its core it's my belief that the ICB shares that sentiment.

kind regards,

Shaun.

Morning Shaun, Nick....

But noone expects the Spanish Inquisition....

Yes, your right Michelle, they did turn out a little on the long side.

I think that Brians line " Shaun. Don't panic there will still be enough work for you" that set me off espechially the most work on any accounts that I'm doing at the moment is fixing books prepared by startup kitchen table bookkeepers.

I am picking up clients because they went for the cheaper options and now it "should" be costing them twice as much to fix but in several cases they don't have the money so I'm doing work based on future prospects with clients.

The one that I'm doing at the moment I'm having to go back three years to unwind the mess.

Keeep trying to emphasise that I'm all about trying to improve the quality but it seems that some see any comment not praising the ICB as attacking them.

Anyway, on the bright side at least fixing all of this stuff means that I'm making the world a better place one ex sage using business at a time (so if the ex bookkeeper is getting a 20% cutback from Sage every year for pushing their wares they will lose that as well).

Anyway, (links to another thread) what you going to do with a truck full of my ex wives anyway?... No, no side business selling organs. I'm still quite amicable with most of them.

Yikes, I didn't want to cause a fuss and hopefully I didn't.

I would say that I took your advice yesterday at face value, Shaun and was somewhat dissuaded by it, if I'm honest. Happily, it turned me towards the reading about the AAT course and making in-depth comparisons between that and an ICB accredited qualification, so thanks for that. Thanks also for your candour, which is something I value a great deal.

Nevertheless, I'm in a pickle. A lot of what you're saying regarding raising the standards of an industry is really encouraging to hear, because it implies that through proper application, one can set oneself apart from your competition and build a great client base for yourself, but I also feel a little disheartened. Researching company visibility/success in my industry is quite simple. You can measure it (to an extent) through press coverage, social reach, product placements, standard of advertising, stockists, etc. Doing your research on the market becomes straightforward. Obviously, it's less simple to research your market when looking at a large number of small practices, who build reputation through word of mouth, as in the case of bookkeeping. It's therefore incredibly valuable to hear about the nature of competition for work from people in practice. Hearing of such ferocious competition did put me off somewhat, because there was just no way to qualify your statement independently, or at least theorise on whether the competition mattered.

I do feel disheartened being bandied in with an influx of "wet behind the ears" bookkeepers flooding the market. Having had time to think about it, I've a relative amount of experience building a company from scratch, in the process creating a custom and relatively complex wholesale model that successfully sold into High Street multiples, as well as building a brand that - 2 years in - is recognised in the British fashion press as "one to watch." I actually think that the peripheral skill set I can offer to a sole trader, partnership, startup or MSME outside of the traditional accountancy service is a something of a feather in my cap and somewhat outweighs the relative inexperience within bookkeeping and day-to-day accounting. That inexperience, though, should surely be outweighed by the fact that by attaining the necessary qualifications (in whichever format the accreditation body sees fit to encourage) the inexperience is a negligent factor. If you've qualified, surely that's enough? I appreciate that experience allows you to apply quicker what you've learned to new scenarios, but I think the point is, if you have competency in something, combined with a strong level of ability in the fields required for your industry, you can do the job and do it well?

Anyway, I hope that wasn't confrontational or in anyway disrespectful, but I was a bit lost yesterday after the initial advice, so I thought best to check in again and I'm glad I did. I'll be mulling over this weekend before making my final decision on a pathway. If anyone does have more advice, I'm always eager to hear/read.

Thanks,

Brian McVean wrote:

---

Shamus wrote:

---

Brian McVean wrote:

---

Shamus wrote:

---

Hi Rob,

the level II statement is (almost) no longer true.

The ICB are changing things from April so that all new bookkeepers must pass level III before being let loose with Practicing Certificates.

To me that makes a lot more sense so kudos to them for making a good move there.

kind regards

Shaun.

---

 Hi Shaun,

 

 

The ICB are making changes but although there is to be movement of topics between levels, the overall structure isn't changing too much. Here is my (very) basic take on it:

1.       What are now Levels I, II & III will become Levels II, III & IV. , So, it will still be the case that at the end of a students "2nd" level of study they'll be able to practice. Well, I hope that made sense!!

2.       A computerised element is to be added to the new Level II (current Level I) to give students an earlier knowledge of a vital skill, to aide with the gaining of experience at an earlier stage of their progression.

3.       The subjects of Partnerships & Not for Profit accounts will be moved to the new Level III (Current Level II). This new Level III will lead to Associate Membership of ICB.

 

Important for all current ICB Associate Membership holders: the ICB will provide a period of grace for you to retain your Associate Membership, but eventually youll need to complete the additional exams (I think theyll be home based) re these additional subjects.

 

TO ALL STUDENTS CURRENTLY STUDYING TOWARDS THESE QUALOFACTIONS:

Please dont panic. Whoever your training provider is should have systems in place where they will deal with the change in an appropriate manner. 

---

So what your basically saying is that its all smoke and mirrors and that we are still going to have a flood of bookkeepers hitting the market that are dangerously under equiped for the level of work that they need to be able to perform in the 21st century. (basically if they cannot act as accountants in the SME market (give basic competent tax advice and prepare accounts) they are about as useful to SME's as a pork pie in a synagogue). Not far away from what I expected you to say Shaun. Don't panic there will still be enough work for you. The more you run the propoganda that bookkeepers can't complete accounts properly or help SME's or MSME's then someone might actually believe you, I doubt it though. Anyway, I'll not get into an argument/discussion over this.

The line about the grace period is at odds with what has been discussed with Dave in a seperate post where it is stated that everyone currently holding an ICB practice certificate will not be affected by the change. I cannot comment on Dave's comments. However, current AICB's will be able to complete accounts for sole traders. Until they complete exams forn the new elements then Partnerships & NfP organisations are off-limits.

Darn it all, until your post I was really happy that the ICB seemed to be really moving in the right direction to try and slow the tide of bookkeepers whilst not affecting those already in practice.

Now you go and lift the curtain and reveal that its all just musical chairs.

p.s. if your wondering why I'm a stroppy git today its because with just a few days to go where I should have just been doing a clients self assessment I'm currently sorting out a mess involving the previous bookkeeper having no perception about the AIA, or use of home, or what expenses are allowable, and the client having gone through three years knowing nothing about mileage allowances.

 

 

 

---

 

---

 What I stated was that AICB members already in practice would not be affected by the new changes UNLESS THEY WERE UPGRADING their membership. You also have to remember as with anything new it takes time to get to grips with these changes and to understand them fully, we are just training providers and not the ICB and these changes did not reach us until Mid December.

Brian McVean wrote:

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Jackson5 wrote:

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Hi

Newbie here who is debating what body to join, been in touch with a couple of companies and gone backwards and forwards asking the same questions of each, looking at AAT and ICB, with a view of hoping to start on my own or working for a company. I have spoken with someone called Dave (who I understand uses this forum) from Training Link who has explained to me the new syllabus changes within the ICB and although he has been extremely helpful I am still a wee bit confused after looking at the ICB website. Dave explained to me the advantages and disadvantages of using Sage Software and it all made perfect sense and what I was told was after further research true and accurate, however the ICB website tells me that to take the ICB computerised exam I will need a full version of computerised software and not a training version which Daves company provide. I was assured the ICB statement was incorrect and the software provided by Training Link is adequate to sit the ICB exams? Does anyone know if this is true?

I also raised questions about what exemptions I would get if choosing to go down the ICB path and later looking at joining AAT? Again I was advised if l completed the ICB Complete package I could go straight in to AAT level 4 with some providers but advised best start at level 3. After reading the above I am more confused than ever, obviously if choosing to invest my hard earned money in a training course I need to be sure what is the right one for me based on my personal professional agenda. There seems to be some conflict on this forum with regards the ICB as an awarding body.

Are there any ICB students or Bookkeepers on here who have succeeded to start their own practice or find employment. I was told that no matter what qualifications I achieve that is down to personal drive and not to believe any promise of an expected salary?

Before I make my investment any advice would be much appreciated.

Lyn

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 Hi Lyn,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

What Dave has told you is correct in that the ICB computerised exams are generic and as long as you are using a suitable bespoke accounting program then you'll be ok. Re the qualification changes, all providers should be well prepared as they've been given suitable warning, although the final detail was only supplied just before Christmas. From our own perspective no student will be inconvenienced, and I'm sure TL will be the same.

 

Re jumping from ICB to AAT it will come down to what certain providers agree to. There are many posts on here suggesting L3 AAT would be the best entry level, but I have heard from numerous students that they've managed ok joining at Level 4. Ultimately, I understand that it's your preferred providers decision.  

 

Good luck with whatever route you go down.

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 Cheers Brian

Who on here would ever have thought you and I would be in agreement? Lol

Keep up the good work on the forum as for me I am fed up of the place.

Shamus wrote:

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 You seem to have done exactly the same as Brian in that you assumed what I had written rather than what I actually wrote.

 Brian in this thread said basically completely the opposit to what you said and that is what caused the somewhat heated debate (a fire stoked by the snide personal comments made by Brian based on him holding grudges from other threads).

 

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Shaun, please believe me when I say that I have far bigger fish to fry than to be overly concerned about what happens on this or any other forum; like, for example, why I have started to wildly slice my driver . To suggest a grudge is ridiculous, are we not supposed to be professionals, as well as adults? In recent months, in my opinion, you have provided guidance that I have felt was not in the best interest of the poster, and I've commented on such cases. In this thread I have already commented on your "dangerously under-equipped" comment, which is what I took exception to and it is there in black and white for all to see.

Hi Shaun,

"James also posted in that thread and did not disagree with what you had said which implied that such was fact."

I'm not sure what you are referring to, but I was probably responding to the student's questions. It was like so many posts on this website where a simple question receives an essay worth bombardment from you which I do not have time to read word for word.

Just because I did not pick up on something written amongst the pages of 'Shaun's Thoughts' does not make it fact. That is ridiculous. 

"They made a mistake over the dollar bill"

The dollar bill was excellent, it did it's job and received great response, even had people chasing for their copy. Just because you did not like it does not make it a mistake. Perhaps you should think of using phrases like 'in my opinion' or 'I feel...'

"they made another in saying that the IAB do not have meetings"

I don't want to come across as if I am 'bashing' them but you keep brining up this point. The IAB are not currently hosting or organising any events (based on their website). IAB work with 3rd parties and IAB members (amongst others) can attend their meetings. ICB do this as well (first one in a couple of weeks), but in the next few weeks the ICB is organising and hosting 16 meetings, 14 of which are branch meetings. 

"As for the ICB being bullied. Thats just damn ridiculous."

I agree. I do not think you are bulling anyone, rather sometimes giving out bias or uninformed information masked as facts.

 

I think it is a real shame, the Bookkeepers Network was a great independent forum, but now seems to be monopolised by an accountant who will not accept any other view but his own, and believes that everyone wants to be an accountant and bookkeepers are 'dangerously unequipped'. Luckily there is still a core of 20 or 30 bookkeepers on here who seem to avoid these topics.

This topic is actually a great example, started by an outsider asking a good question, another outsider joins mid way and asks another question but it pretty much gets overlooked and they have never come back.

Hi Theresa,

just popping out so only a quick response. Did you mean ATT or AAT? Some parts in relation to bookkeeper/accountant read as though it should have been AAT?

talk later,

kind regards,

Shaun.

p.s. Welcome to the forum.

Hi Shaun...snap!

No apology needed, I was just wondering!
Cheers
Rob

Hi Owl!

It seems that you've described the debate I've been having with myself for the last few days. Which one is "best?" I appear to have come to the same conclusion you've suggested (it's all subjective), which is good!

Happily, you've stumbled across this somewhat dysfunctional thread, so I have a few general questions for you, if you don't mind.

How long have you been practicing?
To what level are you now qualified and (if different) at what level did you start practicing/become licenced?
(I imagine this doesn't apply, otherwise you wouldn't still be practicing but) At any point, have you felt limited by what you've learnt/underprepared from whichever training provider you chose to study with? Did you feel you could have been better-prepared?

Loosely-related to what you brought up about what I'd like to be (this could be of some or absolutely no interest, but it's where I'm at), I see becoming qualified as a bookkeeper as adding to a variety of skills I can offer, specifically geared towards creative industries. I think a lot of the help out there comes from a very rigid, one-dimensional place and from those less-inclined to appreciate what's important to business owners in these fields. I'm looking to provide a compassionate all-round business practice, that includes a good competency in the things you need to get done right (e.g. bookkeeping) and experience with the more conceptual facets of a small business. Naturally, I'd like to continue to add skills over time, but I see bookkeeping as an invaluable service/skill that a lot of people just don't have the head for and a solid base from which to further develop the type of repertoire that businesses need from anyone advising them. That might be a shade too optimistic, I admit.

As I mentioned before, I love a client, but loathe a boss, so I'm leaning towards an explicitly bookkeeping-related qualification (i.e. accredited by a professional body, most likely ICB through Training Link), because although the the potential "security" of employment is generally appealing, I'd rather work on my own terms. I suppose my initial thoughts were to find out what the scope for development is long-term, but that was looking at it from a "pathway" point of view, i.e. how many hoops can I jump through, if I'd like to? Taking the time to weigh it all up, I'm more concerned with acquiring a new skill that can help my own business and others' in the short-to-medium term.

Shamus, thanks for your recommendation on the Cox book, I ordered before the weekend, so Amazon should be delivering soon enough. Looking forward to reading it!

The word you are looking for Jack isn't 'best' it's 'best for you' and the two will be surprisingly different.

I gained my lv2 qualifications in June 2012, took out my practice licence in September of that year (same time as I joined here) and started my business in March 2013. I gained my first client within one month and since April 2013 I have gained a further 8 clients, booted one, one has transferred to an employment rather than a contract and lost another as she gave up being her own boss for the safety of a wage. Across this period I have also lost 10 members of family and/or close friends with funeral 10 being tomorrow so something of a roller coaster year!

Clearly this is not the pattern most bookkeepers or accountants follow or there wouldn't be very many of us :)

I am AICB, which means I am lv2 qualified, I learnt through Ideal Schools - whom I rate highly. I have, sitting on my desk should I have a idle hour, my lv3 course notes to study and I do aim to get the two principle lv3 exams this year and if I can I will also start in on the rest of my prepaid course work for Payroll and Tax, but they are less important.

Do I feel limited by what I have learnt? No, by what I have yet to learn? Yes, most certainty. In terms of exams could I have been better prepared, well I have distinction passes (98% and 97% for the lv2 exams) so - No!

I understand what you mean about the difference between a client and a boss but you will find that some clients are just as bad, if not worse - the only advantage is that it is easier to walk away! As with any other job if you want to pay the bills you need to earn so sometimes even a 'bad' client can be better than no clients!

Your comments on the rigidity of the current crop of bookkeepers and their lack of understanding of what is important to a business owner.... umm... I suppose I look at it from the other end - it's all very well the business owner wanting this that or the other but they must understand their own business model or it will all come unstuck very quickly! And that is a large part of the job in my view - making sure the business owner understands how money flows through his or her business. What works and what doesn't - how and why the numbers do what they do. I could go on for ages but it wouldn't be that useful :)

If you want a bookkeeping qualification that starts you at a good, solid albeit basic level, that can grow as you do, spread in any of a number of ways and be tailored to how you see your business growing. Which offers specialist exams and core competencies but which won't cost you the earth - bearing in mind that learning new skills is not a claimable expense, only CPD (Continued Personal Development){and watch the row start!} then join the ICB as a student - give us a try and see if we are the mob for you. It doesn't cost all that much and there's nothing to stop you from leaving should we not be to your taste.

You might find you have a new career.

I have to question the moderation in this forum and this thread particularly.

So some tips might be useful to get some credence back in the BKN forum:

CODE OF CONDUCT FOR COMMUNITY FORUM MODERATORS

The Moderator....
1. REMAINS NEUTRAL.
2. Establishes ground rules for the discussion and confirms the participants agree with the ground rules.
3. Checks for clarification of what's recorded and consensus when necessary.
5. Makes sure that everyone has a chance to participate.
6. Defends participants from personal attacks.
7. Makes suggestions on how to proceed without an opinion.

The Moderator does NOT...
1. CONTRIBUTE IDEAS or evaluate group members' ideas.
2. Interrupt a poster unless they are tending to dominate the discussion.
3. Send negative messages.

In all other forums on the net on all subjects the Moderator is quietly MODERATING not CONTRIBUTING his or her opinion on the subject matter. That is a sign of a good moderator and a good community forum - they follow the Moderators Code universally.

BKN might take a leaf out of the ICB forum, where the moderator very very rarely posts and if they do it is to ensure inappropriate posts are moderated.

I am personally learning a lot from this forum and will continue to learn a lot, but to be honest the moderation leaves a lot to be desired, even if it is done for "free" as I was told in another thread. One can either be a Moderator or be a Contributor, but NOT BOTH for the forum to be impartial and for the good of the community of BOOKKEEPERS (NOT ACCOUNTANTS - I believe accountingweb is a good place for them - www.accountingweb.co.uk).

Just to clarify, there is no issue with anyone having an opinion. The issue for the community should be that the same person cannot effectively moderate whilst contributing their opinion. Be one or the other - but not both!

I suspect I will now be banned from BKN forum for posting my opinion (or get flamed for saying this), after all it is not a community forum but moderators forum, as the moderator has to have the last word. So before I am banned or this post is taken down, I would hope that the owners of BKN take note of this post, as I believe the reputation of BKN forum as a community forum is at stake.

There I said it.

accountsforme wrote:

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I have to question the moderation in this forum and this thread particularly.

well, thats one Christmas card I don't have to buy next year then.

So some tips might be useful to get some credence back in the BKN forum:

CODE OF CONDUCT FOR COMMUNITY FORUM MODERATORS

The Moderator....
1. REMAINS NEUTRAL. Check (despite what you may think).
2. Establishes ground rules for the discussion and confirms the participants agree with the ground rules. I think that the participants are grown ups quite capable of knowing whats acceptable and whats not.
3. Checks for clarification of what's recorded and consensus when necessary. You mean like I did over ICB practicing certificates?
5. Makes sure that everyone has a chance to participate. Check. No closed clicks here although you need to treat others as you would expect to be treated yourself.
6. Defends participants from personal attacks. Multiple checks. I have had words with people off line about the bullying of site members on and off the site.
7. Makes suggestions on how to proceed without an opinion. Happy to change my opinions if proven wrong but don't expect me to not have one.

The Moderator does NOT...
1. CONTRIBUTE IDEAS or evaluate group members' ideas. Don't agree. If I can help I will.
2. Interrupt a poster unless they are tending to dominate the discussion. Don't agree. If someone says something that is wrong then I will disagree with them.
3. Send negative messages. Do we have a chip on our shoulder over the last time that you tried to undermine me?

In all other forums on the net on all subjects the Moderator is quietly MODERATING not CONTRIBUTING his or her opinion on the subject matter. That is a sign of a good moderator and a good community forum - they follow the Moderators Code universally.

The moderators on Opentuition and Accountingweb are also contributors (in fact I'm also a moderator on Opentuition). Why exactly should we be any different to equivalent forums? (not sure about the ICB one. Are not their moderators ICB employees? Nothing wrong with that I just don't know).

BKN might take a leaf out of the ICB forum, where the moderator very very rarely posts and if they do it is to ensure inappropriate posts are moderated.

We were around before the ICB forum.

I am personally learning a lot from this forum and will continue to learn a lot

You wouldn't learn nearly as much if you started restricting who was allowed to post.

but to be honest the moderation leaves a lot to be desired, even if it is done for "free" as I was told in another thread.

And thats your personal opinion which you are entitled to.

One can either be a Moderator or be a Contributor, but NOT BOTH for the forum to be impartial and for the good of the community of BOOKKEEPERS (NOT ACCOUNTANTS - I believe accountingweb is a good place for them - www.accountingweb.co.uk).

So are you saying that all of the bookkeepers on here should be stopping at trial balance no matter what the size of business? If bookkeepers want to do accountancy then there are people here to help them.

If you like Accountingweb so much why not go there and tell them that your a bookkeeper.... Think Christians and Lions.

Where this site fits is a half way point between accountancy and bookkeeping helping those along looking after SME businesses whether or not that bookkeeper stops at trial balance.

Despite attempting to seperate out bookkeeping the ICB is as far along that road as the AAT.

Just to clarify, there is no issue with anyone having an opinion. The issue for the community should be that the same person cannot effectively moderate whilst contributing their opinion. Be one or the other - but not both!

When posting opinions I'm a contributor, when banning people and making judgements I'm a moderator... The two don't cross.

I suspect I will now be banned from BKN forum for posting my opinion

But you are entitled to an opinion so long as noone takes insult at it. I don't take insult easily. Better practiced at it than your good self have tried and failed.

If you were banned for having an opinion that disagreed with mine that would mean that I was wearing my contributor and moderator hat simultaneously.

Noone on here who knows how this site works fears being banned for having an opinion. We don't work that way.

Now if you had been agressively personal (which I am sure theat you are too professional for) that would have been different.

(or get flamed for saying this), after all it is not a community forum but moderators forum, as the moderator has to have the last word. So before I am banned or this post is taken down, I would hope that the owners of BKN take note of this post, as I believe the reputation of BKN forum as a community forum is at stake.

I think that a more fundamental issue is at stake in that the independance of this forum means that we are able to challenge professional bodies and training companies in order to try and ensure that the voice of the small independant bookkeeper working alone at their kitchen table gets heard.

The community here is fine although many of us are too busy to post too much in Jan.

I do agree that we have lost one or two (as all sites do) but we've also gained quite a few. Certainly there seems to be an increasing number of people here who contribute on both this site and the ICB one.

As for reputation of the site I think that it would suffer far more if we did not ask the difficult questions and try to give truly independant advice.

There I said it.

And well done to you. Not banned or anything... But can you stand still by that window as its really difficult to get a good aim.

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