Actually I think it proves what I said - Sarah chose to self mod and removed her own posts rather than cause offence. 

And are you really going to say you are not passionate about what you do Kris?

Kris - I don't know what I have done that is upsetting you so much?

Apart from trying to reply to the poor chap who started this thread all I have done is comment to Shaun that I don't believe the ICB is the source of the 'flood' of under equipped bookkeepers he sees in the marketplace.
I had a gentle quip at Vip and complemented Shaun on his mastery of facts and said that I feel we are all strongly motivated people. I also had a gentle poke at you - one of the most passionate bookkeepers I know.

Why are you cross with me?

 Hi Kris, and everyone else for that matter,

 

 

I am sorry that the subject of this thread has spread to neighbouring forums and involved some that have offered merely an impassioned opinion on their profession. 

 

Kris, from the early days of my involvement on this forum I recall you had posts relating to your ICB training, and knowing your provider at that time there may have been a lack of concentration on your underpinning bookkeeping knowledge, at a time when you could qualify and practice with a knowledge of computerised bookkeeping. I dont know for certain if this was the case with you but I can completely understand a feeling of being professionally under prepared if anyone was in this situation. Times have now changed where ICB and possibly your previous provider require an in-depth manual bookkeeping knowledge, which means that those qualifying now are far more prepared than, say, 3-5 years ago. A few years ago ICB had M Day which should have brought all ICB members to the same level, which would have included both manual & computerised qualifications. Your experience since and further HNC & HND study would really have helped you and there is no doubt that you are knowledgeable and a major contributor of this and the ICB forums. I only mention this as, very possibly, with a different training provider you may have felt more prepared to practice with your ICB qualification. 

 

From the ICB thread you mention the post by GordonB, but at the same time there is a post from Peasie, who I remember as being a regular fixture here for many years. These opinions should not be ignored and if you look back to the reply to my earlier post where I briefly explain the ICB changes (granted with a slight error which has now been amended) there is no way to possibly misinterpret the reply from Shaun.  Because of possible differences in training sweeping generalisations are not appropriate as it is grossly unfair to those who have had comprehensive training.

 

Actually, in my opinion, the most relevant and helpful post in this entire thread has come from Theresa (unwize owl), where she has advised the original poster based on her experiences. She also seems to be doing rather well with her Associate Level ICB Membership, albeit that she plans to qualify to Level III and beyond later.

 

 

I do hope that forum land will settle down soon so that everyone can get on with what is important, which is providing excellent services at their preferred level of practice and/or training.

Hello all, I haven't read everything here but have to comment on Kris' post 

Kris you sound like a broken record, lets hear some facts (I have removed college names because I don't want hit back from anyone):

Period: 2007 - 2009 - due to Scotland having different rules regarding distance learning English training providers sometimes handed Scottish students to Scottish colleges:

College: Scottish College providing courses and tutoring

Company: English company providing materials and payment plans for the course for Scottish Students, or full courses and tutoring for non Scottish Students.

ICB: ICB registered Scottish students against College, not the company, and dealt with the two independently.

 

In 2008 ICB started receiving complaints about the College (not the Company), mostly based around the tutor support. After investigation and no improvements made, accreditation of College was removed in 2009.

Company (still getting very good success rate) looked for other Scottish Colleges to work with but in the end started doing the tutoring themselves.

Most students did not know about the Company as they dealt directly with the College, unless they had finance or saw the Company's advertising and so were put in touch with the College.

More Facts:

Company is also accredited by AAT, ACCA, CIM, CIW, Comptia and others

ICB never received a complaint from Kris regarding this College or Company. 

Hi Kris,

 

Don't worry, I don't wish to haul you back into murky waters . In the whole the course selling aspect has been really tightened up and you no longer see the door-to-door tactics. ICB have now laid out strict guidelines as part of each colleges annual accreditation which we all adhere to, and I no longer hear the same horror stories of the past, although there is always the odd thing that makes you wonder!!.

 

In the past you could be practising through having been shown what buttons to press on Sage, without being told why or what will happen with them. M Day sorted that and now those that qualify should have a sound underpinning knowledge of the bookkeeping subject. That was a major improvement but one that didn't really affect our own students as we have always been firm believers in providing extensive manual bookkeeping training. I am sure, through time, the new changes will see a further improvement as students will have covered more to get to a level where they can practice.

 

All in the name of progress. Take care, Kris, and I hope things are still going well for you. 

AAT is the same as ACCA as far as CPD. Being watched over by the big guns i suppose there would have to be similarities.

 

Shamus wrote:

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accountsforme wrote:

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I have to question the moderation in this forum and this thread particularly.

well, thats one Christmas card I don't have to buy next year then.

Good, I don't celebrate Christmas. You are definitely not on my Diwali Greeting Card list.

So some tips might be useful to get some credence back in the BKN forum:

CODE OF CONDUCT FOR COMMUNITY FORUM MODERATORS

The Moderator....
1. REMAINS NEUTRAL. Check (despite what you may think).

So in your eyes the following comment is neutral:

"So what your basically saying is that its all smoke and mirrors and that we are still going to have a flood of bookkeepers hitting the market that are dangerously under equiped for the level of work that they need to be able to perform in the 21st century."

What you should be saying as a Moderator is, rather than making rash judgements, lets wait until ICB actually publishes the revised syllabus (and contents thereof) and then have an informed debate. Instead you choose to belittle ICB.

2. Establishes ground rules for the discussion and confirms the participants agree with the ground rules. I think that the participants are grown ups quite capable of knowing whats acceptable and whats not.
3. Checks for clarification of what's recorded and consensus when necessary. You mean like I did over ICB practicing certificates?
5. Makes sure that everyone has a chance to participate. Check. No closed clicks here although you need to treat others as you would expect to be treated yourself.
6. Defends participants from personal attacks. Multiple checks. I have had words with people off line about the bullying of site members on and off the site.
7. Makes suggestions on how to proceed without an opinion. Happy to change my opinions if proven wrong but don't expect me to not have one.

The Moderator does NOT...
1. CONTRIBUTE IDEAS or evaluate group members' ideas. Don't agree. If I can help I will.
2. Interrupt a poster unless they are tending to dominate the discussion. Don't agree. If someone says something that is wrong then I will disagree with them.
3. Send negative messages. Do we have a chip on our shoulder over the last time that you tried to undermine me?

I listed all salient items of code of conduct and did not chose the ones you are ignoring to be fair. Whilst you provide excellent and valuable guidance to members, you also go off the reservation for amusement.

With regards to chip on shoulder comment and the Rosemary Franchise thread, I will remind you of BKN forum rules:

• Advertising, spamming and trolling is not allowed. This includes using the forum email and Private message system to spam other members.

I pointed this out to you as a Moderator, you then decided that it was great to poke fun at the Franchise business - there was no debate in the thread as to the merits of Franchise business or not, and ignored the forum rule because it suited you and your mates to have a little fun, you said as much in your reply to Brian with regards to advertising. Furthermore, what signal does that send to paid advertisers on the BKN forum, If i am not mistaken one of the paid advertiser is actually a franchise type business, perhaps they should be looking to review their paid advert on this site, seeing as the "Moderator" finds it amusing type of business.

There was further dereliction of duty as Moderator when you and your buddies started to gang up and ended up moderating me by issuing a warning. No action on personal comments made towards me. One rule for Shamus and his mates and another for every one else. Excellent moderating!

In all other forums on the net on all subjects the Moderator is quietly MODERATING not CONTRIBUTING his or her opinion on the subject matter. That is a sign of a good moderator and a good community forum - they follow the Moderators Code universally.

The moderators on Opentuition and Accountingweb are also contributors (in fact I'm also a moderator on Opentuition). Why exactly should we be any different to equivalent forums? (not sure about the ICB one. Are not their moderators ICB employees? Nothing wrong with that I just don't know).

BKN might take a leaf out of the ICB forum, where the moderator very very rarely posts and if they do it is to ensure inappropriate posts are moderated.

We were around before the ICB forum.

This is a churlish comment, not too dissimilar to a comment made by the then CEO of Blackberry when the iPhone was announced.

I am personally learning a lot from this forum and will continue to learn a lot

You wouldn't learn nearly as much if you started restricting who was allowed to post.

NO one has asked you to restrict any post that did not violate the forum rules.

but to be honest the moderation leaves a lot to be desired, even if it is done for "free" as I was told in another thread.

And thats your personal opinion which you are entitled to.

One can either be a Moderator or be a Contributor, but NOT BOTH for the forum to be impartial and for the good of the community of BOOKKEEPERS (NOT ACCOUNTANTS - I believe accountingweb is a good place for them - www.accountingweb.co.uk).

So are you saying that all of the bookkeepers on here should be stopping at trial balance no matter what the size of business? If bookkeepers want to do accountancy then there are people here to help them.

I never said that, I can't help if you read into things that are not said!

If you like Accountingweb so much why not go there and tell them that your a bookkeeper.... Think Christians and Lions.

Did I say i liked accountingweb? Please stop making things up as you go along.

Where this site fits is a half way point between accountancy and bookkeeping helping those along looking after SME businesses whether or not that bookkeeper stops at trial balance.

Despite attempting to seperate out bookkeeping the ICB is as far along that road as the AAT.

Just to clarify, there is no issue with anyone having an opinion. The issue for the community should be that the same person cannot effectively moderate whilst contributing their opinion. Be one or the other - but not both!

When posting opinions I'm a contributor, when banning people and making judgements I'm a moderator... The two don't cross.

Yes they do. If you are a contributor then you are emotionally compromised as a moderator fact. Reread your posts and tell me there is no emotional content!

I suspect I will now be banned from BKN forum for posting my opinion

But you are entitled to an opinion so long as noone takes insult at it. I don't take insult easily. Better practiced at it than your good self have tried and failed.

If you were banned for having an opinion that disagreed with mine that would mean that I was wearing my contributor and moderator hat simultaneously.

Noone on here who knows how this site works fears being banned for having an opinion. We don't work that way.

Perhaps ICB folks don't post as James identified to defend ICB from your rant knowing that they will be put down by the Shamus posse.

Now if you had been agressively personal (which I am sure theat you are too professional for) that would have been different.

(or get flamed for saying this), after all it is not a community forum but moderators forum, as the moderator has to have the last word. So before I am banned or this post is taken down, I would hope that the owners of BKN take note of this post, as I believe the reputation of BKN forum as a community forum is at stake.

I think that a more fundamental issue is at stake in that the independance of this forum means that we are able to challenge professional bodies and training companies in order to try and ensure that the voice of the small independant bookkeeper working alone at their kitchen table gets heard.

Like I said no one is saying you should not challenge, but as a Moderator you should have told the thread to wait until ICB actually published the revised syllabus before throwing a hissy fit.

The community here is fine although many of us are too busy to post too much in Jan.

I do agree that we have lost one or two (as all sites do) but we've also gained quite a few. Certainly there seems to be an increasing number of people here who contribute on both this site and the ICB one.

As for reputation of the site I think that it would suffer far more if we did not ask the difficult questions and try to give truly independant advice.

There I said it.

And well done to you. Not banned or anything... But can you stand still by that window as its really difficult to get a good aim.

You could not resist it could you. Tell me was this comment as moderator or a contributor?

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Just as I suspected, your reply here is presumably as a Moderator though I am not entirely sure. The issue is NO one really knows when you are posting as a Contributor, Moderator or a combination of both. In fact I believe even you are not that sure as to what role you are playing at, at any given time. Suffice to say that you chose the role that will win you the argument or at best will amuse you and the posse of fans.

My post was directed to Moderator(s), but it is clear that you are the only moderator. So my reply has a personal tone, as your reply has a personal tone towards me.

---

 

Now why don't I listen to my own advice of not arguing with idiots as they bring you down to their level and beat you on experience.

I have been exceedingly patient with you, I have given you multiple opportunities to redeem yourself, I even put homurous bits in my previous reply to try and get you to chill out a little.

The fact is that you are picking for a fight and we have enough legitimate constructive one's happening on the site at the moment without new posters inventing issues where there are non.

The site works fine without you, you have added nothing, you are just trying to cause issues without purpose.

bye.

(And that I did as a moderator)

Too late Rob.

My post last night was made in a freindly manner with jokes at the start and end of it.

It was an olive branch, the second offere to try and get vip back into the spirit of the site.

There isn't a third.

Hi Tim,

it certainly seems to be and as you say, ther's nowt broken here.

We're picking up quite a few new members and site traffic is generally pretty high. (Friday evenings seem to be the one time where traffic drops off).

It is a little annoying that the home view shows only those logged on to the site as viewing it so it may say 1 person if viewing professional bookkeepers in practice but at the same time a thread may get 50+ hits.

Last time I was talking to Ross he was saying that we get around a million hits a month.... So that would be me plus another 100k, lol.

With VIP I was torn about how to end it as I'm not in the habbit of banning people without good reason. However the last post seemed to come from genuine anger rather being constructive and he had not posted anything in his short time on the site to indicate that his stance would change with time or in other threads.

I could have gone into each of his points and responded in kind but as Rob said after, such would just have been degenerating into point scoring which doesn't make anyone look good, even the innocent party to the posts.

Its not just the thread that I need to think about but rather continuing with the same supportive freindly atmosphere that this site is renowned for. It only takes a few bad apples to spoil that.

There are times to argue, and things to argue about (as shown in the bulk of this thread). VIP just picked the wrong thing to latch onto.

Anyway, I'm quite sure that VIP will be very happy over on the ICB site where he can complain about the moderators here to his hearts content without fear of me moderating him.

Anyway, hope that self assessment seasons treating you well Tim.

Talk soon,

Shaun.

Hi Shaun,

 

Don't worry, I come in peace, and just wanted to perhaps explain where the likes of Vip are coming from here, especially relating to this thread. I know Vip from his studies and he is ambitious, keen to learn and has already been active in attending conferences, etc. Given time I am sure he would have been a good contributor on this forum.

 

I have already made my feelings clear re your earlier comment and judging by the way this thread has developed it is clear that it has ruffled a few other feathers. Vip worked very hard during his studies, got qualified and shortly after he views this post which calls into question the quality of his qualification. He did complete his qualification to Level III and is also moving through Level IV with ICB, so his knowledge base is greater than where your comment was aimed. However, another poster (unwize owl) fits directly into the category your comment was aimed at and she has every right to be a little dismayed.

 

I don't think people are point scoring as Rob has indicated, simply sticking up for their qualification, which they have worked very hard to achieve.

Hello All,

I just want to point out that I didn't get involved in this thread because I thought anyone was being negative towards the ICB.

My first post was actually to defend the industry as a whole, from comments like 'saturated market' and the other one about bookkeepers being under equipped somewhere.

Nothing to do with ICB as such.

I have said on the other forum and on here before that I agree with a lot of what Shaun says, I just think occasionally personal opinions are expressed almost as fact (that is not just Shaun, or this forum ).

Regarding Level II, in reality ICB's level II is much closer to Level III of national standards already, but the new structure will mean someone has to have full Level III national standards before they can practice.

Regarding 'saturated market' how to employ staff or hire sub contractors is a hot topic at ICB as members need help with the work load. Plus the job vacancies on ICB's site are not exactly being bombarded with applications as we are told people are too busy.

Regarding CPD - it is something ICB has been considering and has started bringing it in. There is a review in February however, it looks like the other bodies have started saying CPD is required, but you can choose how many hours you do. 0 hours CPD is fine. This is not fully confirmed but it unfortunately does look the way they are moving.

The ICB is the worlds largest bookkeeping body and therefore cannot please everyone. Every time I hear someone saying there should be more exams, another is saying we should just trust the person and not test at all .

I think forums like this are important, but should try and stick to a topic and not make wild accusations against individuals or organisations, and remember that sometimes there is no right or wrong just a difference of opinion.