I'm sorry but I have to get this off my chest. As someone who spent many years in an accounts department back from 1985ish and managed to run many accounts departments easily and without fuss but never touched Sage I have to say what an absolutely convoluted system it is. Sorry! I have spent about a fortnight 'playing' with it to get myself familiar and I just think it's so full of unnecessary buttons to press. Nothing seems to be simple despite the manual (and websites) telling me it's simplified everything. Adding pictures doesn't simplify things it just adds another screen! It feels clunky and restrictive in every way. I really am sorry for saying this to any fans out there but I'm a bit worried that maybe I'm missing something major and it really is the holy grail. Why do most employers ask for experience of this system? I can't believe most of it is necessary unless you're running a multinational company. But even local, part time vacancies seem to need experience of this Sage. I have just never had to use so many screens to do the simplest of tasks.
In VT if make a payment (transfer) from bank to credit card it is easy to correct it if you pay the wrong credit card. With Sage you have to reverse the transaction then remember to include these non existent transactions (they obviously don't appear on statement) in the reconciliation.
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Personally I refuse to take on clients who will not change from Sage and my Practice is totally Sage free.
I used to just dislike it due to the Sage bleed the accountant dry tax but after using VT thats changed to a serious dislike of the way that the Sage software works full stop.
I can see why Sage has been built the way that it has, it tries to makes itself idiot proof but in doing so makes itself (to my mind) difficult and slow to work with.
VT on the other hand takes the appraoch that the people using it are not idiots and you can pretty much change what you like.
The issue with Sage though is that they get clients before they know any better and accountants / bookkeepers by being the only software that there is any proper training available for.
They've even linked up with banks to try and ensure that new businesses are given their software and they also offer incentives to accountants to move clients onto it.
You certainly can't knock their marketing and considering what they're selling and for how much their managers and sales team certainly deserve their bonuses.
I did think that when Intuits attention turned slowly to the UK a couple of years back that Sage would have been crushed but Intuit have not backed up their push with accessible training structured for the UK market which I think has left quickbooks as the outsider still.
As mentioned above though, despite (to my mind) not being the best product for accountants and bookkeepers, Sage have by very clever marketing of their product won the lions share of the market which mean that the bulk of roles out there want people with Sage skills.
Which to my mind is another good reason to own your own practice rather than working for anyone else.
All the best,
Shaun.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
I have never used anything else so I'm poorly qualified to sing its praises, but I really like it and find it simple to use, especially the new VAT return thingumybob.
So, I'm back... Spent far too long in a dark room developing new products for Optegra to promote - (come to Accountex in May and you will see why we have been so busy)
But, a quick glance over the site tonight and I see some Sage bashing (no change there then Shaun... haha) and I cant resist a comment..
Please note the following is my opinion, Sage has its reporting limitations hence why I started Optegra but I also bring over 15 years experience as an accountant seeing and using all the main packages over time.
Emma, Sage at first glance may seem restrictive compared to other desktop based applications (note not compared to 'cloud' offerings) but IMO it is the best accounts software bar none... If you know how to use it (does not take too long to master the basics) then it is, I have used Quickbooks (had to as some clients had it) and it is no comparison. I have spent more time than I ever wanted to trying to find and correct posting errors (in previous years, TB's not balancing etc) Does QB still not lock down a period end??? Always used to make the opening reserves reconciliation's so much fun....
Shaun - your quote that "VT on the other hand takes the appraoch (sic) that the people using it are not idiots and you can pretty much change what you like" is fine but for those who are not accountants/bookkeepers being able to change what they like (ie you could delete one side of journal in QB before - hope this has been fixed over time) it was always tough. So for those trying to identify and fix the problems created from people who may not understand double entry it is a disaster. Sage stops this from happening - which it should.??
I have to be honest in that I have never used / seen VT. Perhaps Shaun if we catch up in the future you can show me.?
Don't get me wrong, I have seen some really messy Sage files over my time but at least there is an audit trail to locate the errors - so that they can be sorted and corrected. I have not yet been daunted over correcting a messed up a Sage file - the same cant be said for a QB file....
Sages pricing model may be the main restriction for some, but buying a package of say 25 companies is good value if you charge it out right and recover the fees...? QB is cheaper, but - dare I say is no comparison?
Running Optegra enables me to meet with a significant number of firms over the UK, face to face via trade shows & exhibitions - Xero is the one that is having the most impact and will in time take over Sage for small business but Sage is still the main package used - If it was that bad why would we all still pay for it and not move to another software provider?
BTW I do anticipate a bit of bashing over this Pro Sage post, but hope to gain some support from a few also also..? Time will tell...
Cheers
Jeremy
PS Dave - well done on the leading our Fantasy Football - The OptegraMRP challenge is still relatively tight, though my 8 year old son is more of a challenge than me haha. Little Saints FC is also still fighting in the cup...
PPS - Hope Villa feel the force of our comeback after a bad night at Anfield on Tuesday..
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Want to see what all the fuss is about? Click here: OptegraMRP
If it was that bad why would we all still pay for it and not move to another software provider?
Isn't this the point? We're not all using it. more and more people are turning away from Sage. They we first to market and have that advantage, but as time passes and alternatives become available people are seeing Sage for what it is, expensive and falling behind.
Most new clients I get who are using sage are doing so for one reason and one reason alone, and it's not because it's great software. It's because their accountant told them they had to (and sold it to them for a good profit). I'll never understand accountants who tell a gardener that Sage is the best system for their small business.
You are right though, for a number of fantastic reasons Xero is quickly gaining some ground where Sage and Intuit missed the cloud boat.
So, I'm back... Spent far too long in a dark room developing new products for Optegra to promote - (come to Accountex in May and you will see why we have been so busy)
Will catch up with you Jeremy at Accountex in May and see what you have been up to.
Going to get flights/hotel booked next week once the madness of January is over, just one more day and still a pile of SA returns to do, including my own.
On the VT front when I said that you could change just about anything, everything still has to balance so you couldn't say delete one side of the double entry without the other.
I think that the reason that VT shines is that its written by accountants for accountants.
Even many who do not use VT Transaction+ (the bookkeeping side of VT) still use VT Accounts. Indeed, at the Intuit roadshow we were advised to team up QB with VT accounts for iXBRL filing. (I still haven't got far enough into QB to know how easy that is to do).
The flaw with such approach of course ignores the fact that unless the client is using QB having VT Accounts comes with VT Transaction+ bundled so rendering QB superfluous.
As Kris hints at above, people are moving away from Sage and its certainly helping that sites such as this and accountingweb are getting the message out there that there are alternatives.
Sure that you've seen the threads over on Aweb where someone asks what software to get for a new practice and VT is often pretty unanimous with the real debate being on the tax software side of things.
Maybe VT's problem is that its software geared towards bookkeepers and accountants and they don't push themselves so much to the client market which makes their name pretty much invisible to out clients.
At the end of the day much of our opinion comes down to what we know and feel comfortable with. You've been using Sage for 15 years and know all of its little idiosyncracies so naturally that will be what you are happiest with.
There is nothing wrong with that. We all have our own favorite software and I've said of VT on the site before that VT is a bit like marmite in that you either love or hate it with little in between the two extremes which really makes the two month trial excellent to determin which category that you fall into.
I know that Michelle (foxy) whose a Sage shop trialed VT and didn't like it by comparrison. Nothing against that, its personal taste.... But the key is that she tried the alternative and made an informed decision based upon personal taste.
Good to see you back on the site Jeremy, looking forwards to chatting,
kindest regards,
Shaun.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
I have used quite a few software, both desktop and cloud, and I've had enough time on each now, to get used to them and consider them against Sage. And Sage still wins for me, as Shaun rightly says.
It is about personal choice, I absolutely believe that. A bookkeeping system is only as good as the person putting in the information. I can use the systems that I feel are inferior, but I use them so that the work is correct (it's just that sometimes I have to find a work around to do what I need, or accept that, even when up to speed with the functionality, they are still a little more time consuming or have reports that look like someone just spewed information on it).
The shortcomings are forgiveable on cheap or free versions.. but there are a few that have really appalled me. But I'm not getting into the whos and whys, its like anything else -you cant please all the people, all the time.
Get some trials on the go, Emma. You will find one that suits you best :)
I am also a Sage-hater. I'm having to use it a bit at the moment for a relatively new client who used it before I took over and moved them to Xero and it's driving me nuts. There was a mispost 6 months ago and I know that on Monday I need to find where the other side of the transaction was posted to and deal with it, on Quickbooks or Xero it would be so quick and easy to find the error and adjust it but on Sage it's a Big Job. My experience of Sage is that it isn't suited to the smallest businesses at all - the ones where there will be missing receipts and spurious expenses that you have to query with the business owner to make sense of them, but where speed of bookkeeping is very important as budgets as tight.
I didn't think much of Xero until about last summer, before then I thought the functionality was not good enough, but it is better now and I think that's one of the reasons that the cloud based software is going to become more and more popular, as regular upgrades will keep improving it.
Jeremy asked about locking periods on Quickbooks, yes you can be do that and have been able to for several years. If you're comparing Quickbooks of several years ago with Sage now it might be worth trying Quickbooks again as it has changed a lot and so the comparison isn't really valid, it's like comparing a 1980s car phone with a Nokia of today whilst ignoring the iPhone!
Email me the back up on the Sage error Ruth, I'll have a scan fer ya :)
(( I guess that's the one great thing about a forum where everyone loves different software... there's always someone that will know how to do what you need! ))
-- Edited by FoxAccountancyServices on Friday 31st of January 2014 10:44:18 PM
In my previous accounting business that I gave up 10 years ago (I'm just about to restart!), I was also a Sage dealer, and supplied any software and hardware the client needed. But I always looked at the needs of the individual business, and if Sage wasn't suitable for the job, I told the client and walked away (or helped them find something else). I knew Sage inside out, and quite often when I phoned Tech Support to find out how to do something, by the time they called back to say it couldn't be done I'd found an answer! The software was never cheap, but I used to think it was good value for money, but then they started pushing the prices up beyond what I felt was reasonable to expect my clients to pay. I was OK, as I had cheap dealer copies, and a multi-company licence from when they were affordable. The final straw was the letter from them that said something like "we listened to our dealers asking to increase prices, so we have"!
So when my new business is up and running, I may use Line 50 version 8 or 9 to do work for clients who don't have it on their own computers, but I won't be swapping data with them as I'm sure the files will be incompatible!
I later became a director of a small company I helped to start, where I decided that Quick Books was the most suitable software to use. Strangely, when I left, my replacement immediately bought Sage, even though with over 15 years experience of using it, and knowing my former company inside out, I didn't consider it up to the job!
Sometimes it is NOT about having the best tool for the job.
Sometimes it is about getting the most our of the skill set you have got in the business. Lots of people know Sage so there is a big skill set for it. I have met many a detractor stuck with sage who given a little time and plenty of support can become a keen advocate.
Sometimes it is about integration, Sage is integrated to lots of things, and it is pretty to integrate the things that are not. If there are staff keying data from one system into another then that is money being poured down the drain.
Sometimes it is about support, there is shed loads of support available for Sage both form Sage direct and independents.
Sometimes it is also about confidence, a lot of people do not want the NSA giving their data to American corporations to help further the American national interests, nor do they want GCHQ, HMCR or anyone else to know the day-today details and timing of what they are doing.
The best things about Accounting Software is that there is a great deal of diversity, diversity is a good thing, something we should embrace and something we should welcome and not fear.
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I have just never had to use so many screens to do the simplest of tasks.
Just to let you know, the stupid wizard for creating customers etc do not have to be used, you can just open a customer record and do it.
Wizards are interesting, in the old days a wizard was someone very clever, someone who could do magical things, read your mind, they were respected and great. Now they are guides for idiots that drive everyone round the bend.
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Sometimes it is about getting the most our of the skill set you have got in the business. Lots of people know Sage so there is a big skill set for it. I have met many a detractor stuck with sage who given a little time and plenty of support can become a keen advocate.
Very good point Bruce.
I think that too many who enter this profession think of it in terms of being a Sage end user and that being the actual skill rather than being a book-keeper or accountant where Sage is just a tool supposed to make one's life easier.
Whether the number of questions on here in relation to Sage is a reflection of poor software or poor training is a matter of debate.
Some like it, some don't. Certainly there are certain clients for whom it is the software for the job.
In general terms I would say that Sage is excellent software to service box stackers and haulers but for service industries it is total overkill.
The way that my practice works thats actually dictated my client base as I refuse to have any Sage products installed whilst they persist with their client tax. (I use the same software installed on the same machine. Why should I pay more for it the more successful I am?).
The above said, I keep starting to look at QB to fill the gap for the stackers and haulers market but it seems that every time that I start to learn it yet another emergency crops up.
As you say, diversity is a good thing. I would not argue with anyone who chose to use Sage but I would like to think that they looked at the alternatives before decidng that Sage was the software for them.
I've had very similar discussions over the use of IRIS where a freind of mine is paying £8k more than me in software costs per year as she's traditional Sage / IRIS.
There is nothing wrong with that approach but it does remind me a little of the old strap line "nobody ever got fired for choosing IBM".
Its similar with my friends settup in that she has chosen the well trodden traditional route, I've gone a different way... You can't tell the difference between the end results or extract any additional information from one settup over the other... Except for stock control which is where Sage wins.
kind regards,
Shaun.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
