AAT - Bookkeeping, accountancy and ICB/IAB/ACA/ACCA/ACMA/IFA........ - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

GinnyBee · Veteran Member

AAT - Bookkeeping, accountancy and ICB/IAB/ACA/ACCA/ACMA/IFA........

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Well, to me I would say AAT is both or either depending upon how you want to use it. You will find that many accountants regard accounting technicians quite different to accountants (basically, if accountancy and bookkeeping got together and had a child...). but personally I don't.

IFA is accountancy (especially on the grounds that most of them seem to be trained ACCA working under someone elses banner due to regulation 8).

AIA is accountancy

ICPA is accountancy

A further thing to consider is that all accountancy qualifications cover the entirety of bookkeeping so any accountant (possibly with a bit of revision in some cases) could be a bookkeeper.

Not all bookkeepers could work as accountants without further training.

I see Payroll qualifications slipping down the bookkeeping side of the fence and tax qualifications (ATT, CIOT) dropping on the accountancy side of the fence.

Interested to hear others views.

GinnyBee · Veteran Member

Shamus wrote:
basically, if accountancy and bookkeeping got together and had a child...

Very interesting way to put it

David Ballantyne · Senior Member

If you think of an accountant as someone who can produce final accounts, including group accounts, prepare tax calculations and prepare sophisticated management accounting information then any accounting qualification from QCF level 4 (formerly NVQ) upwards is an accountant. Conversely, someone who has the skills/qualifications to produce accounting records up to trial balance level only is a book-keeper.

QCF levels for the various qualifications are:

IAB/ICB level 3 equivalent to A level

AAT level 4 equivalent to first year of a degree/HNC

IFA level 5 equivalent to an HND

Chartered qualifications and AIA are level 7, equivalent to a masters degree.

The increasing QCF levels relate to increasing sophistication of the qualification. The higher the qualification the more capable you are (in theory) of handling complex situations in large organisations.

If you put this into the context of the average self employed practitioner dealing with sole traders and small limited companies, then anything higher than QCF level 4 is probably over qualification.

Elaine Clark of the Cheap Accounting franchise is very vocal in promoting that businesses should use only qualified accountants. Her definition of qualified accountant includes members of the AAT as well as members of the chartered bodies.

In short, look at what the qualifications actually cover and make a judgement based on that.

Regards,

David.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi David,

Can you just qualify that please as I may have misunderstood or it may be that your one line does not read as it was intended. (I do that all of the time!).

Are you saying that Elain is saying that businesses should not use bookkeepers or was the intention to say that businesses should only use accountants to prepare final accounts.

Is she counting bodies such as IFA, ICPA and AIA as accountants (especially as there level in your hierarchy is higher than AAT).

kind regards,

Shaun.

David Ballantyne · Senior Member

Hi Shaun,

I was trying to justify the QCF level at which people can call themselves accountants rather than book-keepers. I was not trying to say that businesses should not use qualified book-keepers.

At one time the Cheap Accounting franchise was only open to chartered level accountants. There used to be a separate book-keeper package for AAT studiers and members. Now there only seems to be the accounting franchise which is offered to AAT members as well as members of the various chartered bodies. She does not mention IFA, AIA, don't know why.

Link here: http://www.cheapaccounting.co.uk/accountancyfranchise/

Regards,

David.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Cheers David,

I'll have a look at that link in a while but just in the middle of something at the moment. (lol, after ten at night and how many of us are still working!... This isn't a job its a lifestyle choice).

Talk later when I've had chance to have a read,

kind regards,

Shaun.

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Hmmm, I seem to remember the idea of a franchise got quite short thrift on this forum not too long ago, I hope this gets the same attention. From the initial outlay to the ongoing monthly costs, there is only one side of this business agreement that is going to be guaranteed to make money. Also, to suggest that bookkeepers can only complete accounts to trial balance is completely untrue. We have thousands of students that have been trained and are fully qualified to complete final accounts for sole traders, partnerships and not for profit organisations, although limited company accounts cannot be completed fully without level 4 qualifications, which can be gained outwith AAT, with ICB being one qualification that springs to mind.

David Ballantyne · Senior Member

Brian,

I was not aware that the ICB level 3 qualification included non-limited final accounts preparation. I was aware that there are level 4 qualifications covering final accounts, tax and management accounting. I had not looked into the qualification that deeply. I am also aware that IAB offer level 4 qualifications also.

I will re-iterate a point I made earlier. In assessing whether someone is an accountant, look at what their qualifications cover and consider whether this meets your definition of an accountant.

Technically, I think it is reasonable to state that book-keepers prepare records to trial balance and accountants take that data and prepare final accounts, tax returns and management accounts.

Just for the record, I am not promoting any franchise. I am not in favour of franchises for the very reasons you gave.

Kind regards,

David.

-- Edited by David Ballantyne on Monday 10th of February 2014 11:20:52 PM

NickCraggs · Guru

Shamus wrote:

I'll have a look at that link in a while but just in the middle of something at the moment. (lol, after ten at night and how many of us are still working!... This isn't a job its a lifestyle choice).

isnt February the quiet month?

Unwize Owl · Senior Member

David Ballantyne wrote:
IAB/ICB level 3 equivalent to A level

Not wishing to disparage the work you have done calculating equivalent grades for everything but 2 Diplomas (ICB Lv3, minimum) is a tad more than an A Level, even an 'old school' A smile - and a complete set of lv3 exams is 5 diplomas. so while I agree it is not equivalent to AAT Lv4 I think it is somewhat more than your grading suggests.

Unfortunately the ICB have removed the page that told us exactly what each level was allowed to do, but my understanding of the licence levels is that a full Lv3 qualified MICB can complete partnership work and anything below that. If that is still the case after the April 'reshuffle' I have yet to find out.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Morning Theresa,

Actually, I don't think that the A level analogy is too far from the mark and is really being very complimentary to the ICB qualification.

I can only think in terms of old school A levels of two years solid study with a pig of an exam at the end of it. Take History as an example. British political history 1906 to 39 and European history 1870 to present day is a huge canvass and thats just one A level.

Certainly good Uni's place a lot of credence in people with history A levels if they want to study law and of course law degree's often lead to careers in accountancy (#1)

Considering that breadth of knowledge I think that comparing it to three manual bookkeeping exams and two computerised ones (to get to level III) is not at all disparaiging and actually quite complimentary to the ICB qualification.

Remember that on the basis of A level results opens up interest by Universities so they are well thought of qualifications.

Just my two penneth,

kind regards,

Shaun.

#1 always seems to surprise people new to this that accountancy is closer to law than maths.... Or, using a bastardisation of a line from another post that I made yesterday... "If law and mathematics had a child...". lol.

p.s. the above is defending the academic merit of A levels, not having a go at the ICB qualification which I felt had actually been complimented by that very good comparison.

Unwize Owl · Senior Member

That 'higher levels' of bookkeeping/accountancy are closer to law than maths I will not argue - it's what's holding me back, as I find the complex background reading difficult being dyslexic and not too tremendous at written English.
I signed up to add numbers not dabble in the murky waters of precedent!

As to just how much a lv3 ICB qualification is 'worth' we may just have to agree to disagree. Having done, as I suspect most here, both A levels and a full degree, I think the level of work involved is higher - A levels were never this much struggle, neither was most of my degree come to that!

I'm going to put all the blame where it deserves to be - on Company and Contract Law - it's making my brain melt. I have 5 exams to go and I need to take one of them before June. Urrgghhh......

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Unwize Owl wrote:
being dyslexic

Me too smile

Have a read of this thread where I advised someone with dyslexia who was having difficulties at higher level ACCA and then I followed it up with a list of famous Dyslexics.

http://www.book-keepers.org.uk/t49577791/acca-membership-rules/

You may find some of the list surprising but the key is that although we may be wired differently there is absolutely nothing wrong with us and we actually tend to have clearer, more logical thought processes.

Actually, as Dyslexics go I'm a special category of freak where growing up I had perfect mirror writing in that I would start in the bottom right hand corner of a book and work right to left up the page.

Was treated like the village idiot at my frst school but at the second I had a teacher who recognised that despite what others thought I was actually mentally more advanced than the rest of the class and more by luck than design I was writing (quite poorly) the right way around by the time that I left primary school.

Couldn't do that sort of mirror writing now and non of my letters look Russian anymore but my i's and e's are invariably the wrong way around.

On your issues over company and contract law. Use index cards with the scenario on one side and the case law on the other (including date).

Start with one card, memorise it, add another and keep doing that going through the entire deck after each new card added (and keep sorting them otherwise you memorise them in sequence).

Before you know it you will be able to call upon a hundred bits of case law (I have the same approach with accounting standards, audit standards, ethical standards, ratios and Mnemonics... You will seldom catch me without at least one 100 card deck in my pocket)

Right, you do realise that you just got a site promotion for being dyslexic rather than anyone feeling sorry for you don't you, lol.

talk in a bit,

Shaun.

-- Edited by Shamus on Tuesday 11th of February 2014 11:57:12 AM

David Ballantyne · Senior Member

When I ascribed the QCF levels to the different qualifications I have assumed that when the different qualifying bodies mention that their qualifications are level 1,2 or 3 etc, they are referring to QCF levels. If this is not the case then my classification does not work.

Links to QCF descriptions can be found here:

http://ofqual.gov.uk/qualifications-and-assessments/qualification-frameworks/levels-of-qualifications/

http://www.citbcsni.org.uk/getdoc/e7b0c8be-dbfa-4f5b-a11f-025b2f8509d8/Approved-Courses.aspx

Regards,

David.

Unwize Owl · Senior Member

Ahh - well... as the ICB said only a couple of weeks ago, our exams currently don't work with the QCF levels - that's the whole reason for the re-jig as I understand it! To bring us closer into line. I think there was a thread here that James contributed to about the changes, I'll see if I can find some details...

Shaun. Thanks, I do have index cards but I can't memorise what I don't understand and understanding the convoluted mess called English Law... yeah... well.... it ain't a printable reply!

I remember freak status - didn't stop them asking for help with their maths I noticed. I had a fantastic primary teacher too, who managed to get me to write without a hook, apparently rare for a left-hander. As a consequence if I put my mind to it my writing is moderately legible :) But I prefer to type - computers have spell checkers!

YLB-HO · Guru

Hi Everyone, Its been a while since I have had the time to drop by and see what you are all up to!

Can I put my 2 pennies worth in?

I used to work a bit with Elaine, and stopped when she started only offering her Francises to only chartered accountants. When I mentioned this to her in a post (on this web site I think a long time ago), she said she did not undertand my comment. I have since then work with her and she did pass a number of individuals for to me to help when they received large tax bills from HMRC when they updated thier computers a couple of years ago. This is despite the fact that I am not a chartered accountant. I still wonder if she thought (and still thinks?) I was?

The problem we now have is - the general public think that Accountants, used to be book-keepers, but with additional skills. Unfortunetly this is no longer true as very few Accountants now bother to gain the book-keeping skills that where once standard bread and butter work given to them whilst training towards their professional qualification.

This is why book-keeping has become a recognised professional qualification in its own right. So to say "only a book-keeper" is not very accurate. I know a lot of data entry clerks, who to be honest, would not know what a trial balance was (or just know that its a report they can obtian, if asked, but would not know if it was correct or not), but they do call themselves book-keepers. These book-keepers are not normally a member of any professional body - even a book-keepers professional body.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Frauke,

been a while, welcome home.

you've missed a few shenanigans in your absence. I even got mentioned in dispatches over on the ICB site.

Some very good points although it has to be said that all of the accountants that I know, chartered included, do have good knowledge of bookkeeping.

YLB-HO · Guru

Thanks Shaun,

But can I ask when did they train and what route did they take?

I wish I could say the same. I could give you the name of several chartered accountants who I know cannot even reconcile a Petty Cash account, but it would be unfair if I named them, even if I was tempted to do it.

Someone I know just got rid of their very experienced Management accountant (Chartered), because they discovered he was unable to provide cover when the junior accountants/book-keepers where all off work at the same time by accident (holiday & sick). They thought he had a good knowledge of book-keeping. It turned out, he just knew how to take/analyse the final figures and produce lots of detailed reports. He just did not know how to do the work required correctly to produce the final figures and relied on the junior accountants/book-keepers to do it.

GinnyBee · Veteran Member

Interestingly I just looked at Elaine's accounting Franchise, she states

Franchisees must be qualified accountants

and includes AAT in that but not IFA or AIA. So I'm still not certain how the profession sees various qualifications let alone the general public.

All of the Accountants I've come across, Chartered or otherwise, have a good grasp of bookkeeping. However, I've heard second hand that those trained with large firms where they "only" audit may not have.

-- Edited by GinnyBee on Tuesday 11th of February 2014 05:09:03 PM

YLB-HO · Guru

I am not saying all Accountants don't know how to do book-keeping, but increasingly I am finding many don't so we should not presume all do.

GinnyBee · Veteran Member

YLB-HO wrote:
I am not saying all Accountants don't know how to do book-keeping, but increasingly I am finding many don't so we should not presume all do.

Oh yes, never presume but always expect

YLB-HO · Guru

GinnyBee wrote:
Oh yes, never presume but always expect

But should we? If we expect and it not true, it can causes enourmous harm.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

YLB-HO wrote:
But can I ask when did they train and what route did they take?

Hi Frauke,

across the board they trained ACCA and converted to ICAEW.

Oh, and there's Nick. He trained AAT and them moved through to ICAEW.

I don't think that I know anyone who has only trained ICAEW so cannot comment on that.

I think that I'm a product of the accountants that I know and respect who have basically instilled in me the principle that you should know some of everything, a lot about some things and nothing is below you.

I like to think that most of our readers here have a similar sort of attitude.

YLB-HO · Guru

Shaun,

What you know are Accountants from what I call the old traditional route, who learnt book-keeping on the job and studying at the same time. They may have also taken some book-booking qualifications too. It is possible to qualify as a Chartered Accountant by just studying without being asked to do any book-keeping (hence the comment about audit), and there is one chartered body I know who allows anyone with a accountancy degree (and no work experience is required) to become a member and have a practice certificate.

-- Edited by YLB-HO on Tuesday 11th of February 2014 05:29:44 PM

Hal · Veteran Member

Frauke

Curious as to which chartered body that is?

Would be surprised if it was any of the CCAB ones or CIMA but happy to be corrected.

Hal FFA MAAT

NickCraggs · Guru

This from the ICAEW Accounting syllabus, that all ACAs must complete:

ACCOUNTING
Module aim
To ensure that candidates have a sound understanding of the techniques of double entry accounting and can apply its principles in recording transactions, adjusting financial records and preparing non-complex financial statements.
On completion of this module, candidates will be:
proficient in the use of double entry accounting techniques and the maintenance of accounting records
able to identify and correct omissions and errors in accounting records and financial statements
able to specify the components of financial statements and prepare and present non-complex accounts for sole traders, partnerships and limited companies.
Specification

from

http://www.icaew.com/~/media/Files/Qualifications-and-programmes/aca-evolved/aca-students/exams/module-syllabus/syllabus-latest-evolution-of-the-aca-certificate-level-aug-2013-dec-2014-accounting.ashx

It also mentions that all ACA must know what the books of prime entry are here:

http://www.icaew.com/~/media/Files/Qualifications-and-programmes/aca/aca-students/exams/professional-stage/knowledge-modules/accounting/accounting-study-guide-aug-13-dec-14.ashx

Unfortunatly, i was on the AAT-AAT fasttrack option so i dont have the study manuals to hand but anyone who has done ACA or ACCA has covered double entry, the accounting equation, and the books of prime entry.

Nick

David Ballantyne · Senior Member

YLB-HO wrote:
there is one chartered body I know who allows anyone with a accountancy degree (and no work experience is required) to become a member and have a practice certificate.

In respect of CIMA, I know that they do have arrangements with some universities which offer an accounting degree, which I assume is closely relevant to the CIMA syllabus for the CIMA Advanced Diploma in Management Accounting. Graduates of these degrees can then gain part-qualified status with CIMA at Advanced Diploma level.
I would be surprised if any of the chartered bodies gave full membership for accounting degree graduates considering that the chartered bodies full qualifications are equivalent to masters level degrees.
The only UK accountancy bodies who offer full membership for accounting graduates that I am aware of are Institute of Financial Accountants, Certified Public Accountants Association and the International Association of Accounting Professionals.
Regards,
David.

David Ballantyne · Senior Member

GinnyBee wrote:
Interestingly I just looked at Elaine's accounting Franchise, she states
Franchisees must be qualified accountants
and includes AAT in that but not IFA or AIA. So I'm still not certain how the profession sees various qualifications let alone the general public.

Hi Ginny,
In terms of being employed rather than self employed the qualifications which are generally accepted are the various chartered qualifications and the AAT. All other accounting qualifications are really focussed on the self employment market, however there will undoubtedly be some people who will be an exception.
The public as a general rule will only be aware of Chartered Accountants, ie members of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales. Consequently, members of other accounting bodies, despite being perfectly competent may find that they have to explain to prospective clients that they are perfectly competent.
If you search the forum you will find these points have already been discussed at length.
Regards,
David.

C Breezes · Newbie

I'm nearing 60, book kept

for 30 years, filled in some gaps by taking AAT 4 tech, but have forgotten a lot of stuff now. I'd like to refresh and relearn and also learn.
Thinking about distance learning AAT business tax module (I did PT) any thoughts?

Thanks for any advice.

CB.

David Ballantyne · Senior Member

RE: AAT - Bookkeeping, accountancy and ICB/IAB/ACA/ACCA/ACMA/IFA