Hello Shaun.
wow, that was a quick sale, just got the email 2 hours ago.
unless my biz will generate higher returns quickly I will just stick to the monthly meetings as I cant spend a lot at the moment.

wish you a good day

Adrian

The £50 tickets went very quickly then they sent another email offering another batch at £75 - I was lucky I managed to get the ticket for £50 so I just have my train and hotel to pay out now.
I went last year for the first time and thoroughly enjoyed it -thought it was well worth the money.

Hi Brian. Sharon, Nick,

It just seems very expensive when compared to the likes of Accountex.

I never doubted that the day was enjoyable for all those involved. My issue is simply that the majority of bookkeepers are micro businesses who would not be looking to make this sort of outlay.

The ICB targeted the entry level sector of the accounting market yet as Nick points out they hold their bashes at places such as the Savoy and the Dorchester which must surely exclude a large number of their members who chose their professional body based on price and would like to attend the gatherings but are priced out of attending. (Take the case of Adrian above who is a student and is excluded on cost).

Plus, whilst one does not have to have the meal. That too is rather expensive. There are a lot of great venues in London where meals are available for less than £50 per head.

Then again, I'm naturally cautious with money. When working in banking in the city I used to be on a lot of money but I would still buy my dinners from Benjy's, lol.

Anyway, I must stop being so protective of bookkeepers. Sure that you can all stand up for yourselves.

kind regards,

Shaun.

p.s. made up for you Sharon that you got one of the initial batch of tickets. Hope that you really enjoy yourself on the day.... Your challenge is to make sure that you get more in freebies than you spent on your ticket.... You can work out what you are going to do with several thousand pens and keyrings after the event.

lol, a man after my own heart when it comes to money Kris.

Wondered why always I feel so at home working in Edinburgh?

Ha ha Shaun-thank goodness for mobile phones-was at home when the email buzzed through so clicked on the link and was successful-not often I am a winner!
Last year I didn't get much other than a memory stick and a car air freshener(which is still in the packet ) -must make up for it this year !!!

On a serious note-I agree the full price when you include travel, accommodation and the meal is a lot of money to find when you are a micro business -I am quite lucky-I have a good turnover so can afford to shell out for a good day/night but it is out of the reach of students and new businesses which would benefit from it.
I did look at the AAT weekend but to be honest thought that was extortionate

Oh and I won the quiz at the summit last year so I also came home with a trophy )))))

Hi Brian,

Well, I said above that I was going to stop protecting bookkeepers but I think that there's more that needs to be said.

my comments were not about the event itself which as you say, I am not in a position to comment on. Sure that its a great day for all who attend.

My comments are made purely on the basis that by choosing such venues the organisers put the event beyond the reach of many of their own members.

To me that shows disjointed thinking where an organisation is losing sight of its own membership.

Maybe this thread had an effect as after the batch of £50 tickets sold out so quickly a batch of £75 tickets was released.

I would not expect anyone from the ICB to come on here and say "Oops, you know what, you're right". I just hope that people such as James read the posts and the penny drops that the ICB is about its membership and it's membership are made up in no small part by those who would not be able to justify this level of expenditure so in some ways the summit for some may in fact disenfranchise them from their own professional body.

That is not anti ICB.

What I am saying is that the ICB is not alone in being an organisation that may be suffering from a kings new clothes syndrome in that when a few tell a businesses owners that they are getting it right for so long then they may lose signt of their roots.

The ICB's roots are in the single mums and newly retired and unemployed and career changers many of whom will, as you know, plough what they have into training then struggle for the first few years as they try to grow their businesses.

Expensive gatherings are beyond their means but these are the very people who would probably benefit most from such get togethers.

What I am trying to say is that the little people matter.

That lone bookkeeper slaving over a set of books well into the early hours could do with spending time at one of these gatherings, do some networking, putting faces to people that they only chat to on forums.

But, the prices being charged for these rather lavish events seem more geared towards those whose businesses are already a success.

I'm not for one minute suggesting a gathering in the back of a ford transit with a bottle of tizer, a bag of chips and a dozen plastic forks. But there are much cheaper nice venues that could have been selected elsewhere in the country.

As a very wise scot that I used to work with regularly said. "The UK is not London".

Maybe the idea in my first post of the bash being free was a little off the wall, but surely something with so many potential delegates could be arranged for nearer a token £25 per head in order to connect with the larger membership.

kind regards,

Shaun.

I totally agree that they should vary the location each year making it accessible for all the country- I know there is a meting in Glasgow next week but again its too far for most to travel to without staying overnight.

If they chose a location in a different county each year -say Lincs, Yorkshire, Manchester,Newcastle etc etc then at least it would give others a chance.

By the time I have finished with accommodation,train fares and meals as well as the day itself it does put a large dent in my purse, as I said earlier I am lucky enough to be able to pay for this but some cant do it

Hi Brian,

I would tend to agree that a location would need to be a transport hub accessible by all which probably shortlists the venues outside London to Birmingham and Manchester.

I don't think that one can compare the bookkeepers get togethers to the accountancy one's as they are quite different markets with bookkeeping aimed predominantly (but not exclusively) at giving those a chance to enter the profession and to start a business who may not otherwise have the opportunity.

The ICB embraced that concept when making their exam centres so accessible but the annual gatherings seem a decadent anomally out of touch with the reality of many of their members.

To put accross £150 as a standard ticket price is to my mind out of touch with the financial realities that many of the ICB's members face.

Offering the tickets at £50, £75 and £100 if one books early loses focus on the reality that the tickets should never have been more than that entry level price. Indeed. I would have thought that £25 should have been the maximum level that they were looking at in order to appeal to students and start up practices as well as those who are already successes.

kind regards,

Shaun.

The AAT do move the Members weekend around the country.  In 2012 it was in Bristol, 2013 it was in Manchester, this year it is in Reading.

I went to the CIPP one last in Wales last year.  

I think the meal at £50 is good value, but are there not Training Providers and Software Providers subsidising the cost.  Other than a room, a buffet and a few speakers what else can the costs be.

Just received an email

The response to this years Summit has been amazing, and we have now sold all of the initial release tickets.

Garry Carter, CEO ICB Global, visiting the Suffolk Branch last night decided that ICB wants to make sure everyone has the opportunity to get their hands on a ticket, so we have extended a limited number for the price of £75!

Remember to book into the members dinner, to enjoy a fantastic meal and wine after a brilliant day at the Summit.

The full day Summit, includes attendance to all presentations and entry to the exhibition plus refreshments and sumptuous buffet lunch, a free goody-bag filled with exciting giveaways and the chance to rub shoulders with fellow students and bookkeepers all under one roof!

oh dear Jackie that turned out to be a very expensive trip for you then as well as very stressful

Hope you make it this year- it is a good day/evening

Sharon

I was always a bit funny about posting on the ICB Forum. I was an icb tutor, chartered accountant, and i ran bookkeeping practice but i wasn't allowed to post in all of their forum, which annoyed me immensely.

But, if you disagree, your points are better over here where the initial point was raised. Posting on a closed icb forum isn't really a debate.

From the ICB forum.

"It is easy for Shaun/Shamus (identity crises is the first sign of madness) to sit in his little playpen in a self-serving forum to criticise ICB.

Sarah, I would not take much notice until he actually comes out of his playpen and debates his views in an open forum where he can't wield his moderator stick. I suspect he is too much of a wimp to do this especially without his little posse to encourage him".

Open forum my arse.

quite Gary,

personally I think that my first sign of madness was impaling the head of the last person who refered to me as a wimp on a spike at the end of my drive.

Ooh, look, ClawzCTR/Gary you must be having an identity crisis as well.

You just couldn't make this stuff up.

Its almost worth reading the ICB's site just out of morbid curiosity.

Right, there's way too much paperwork in this playpen so got to go and do stuff.

talk later,

Shaun.... Or is that Shamus... Or maybe Jofrey...

And there was a follow up over there from VIP.

Anyone can feel free to copy and paste my response over to their site if they want to as unlike the accusations I am quite happy to debate matters with them.

Vip Patels comments from the ICB site are in blue. I insert my replies but I have neither added or ommited anything from his reply.

Kris,

With greatest of respect, being professional with BKN moderator only gets you at best an unprofessional comment from him in his forum and at worst being banned because you don't agree with him.

Many people disagree with me and we have good open debate where topics affecting our industry are discussed and possible sollutions identified. I feel that the debates that we have had on here have, whether consciously or sub consciously, helped feed back into ICB policy making.

I do not see James, or Dave, or Brian, or Bob, or a myriad of others being banned simply because we have opposing views.

You were banned from this site purely because your attacks on me were personal and unprofessional. You were warned on numerous occassions and I repeatedly tried to offer you an olive branch but you persisted which resulted in a ban... You poke a bear in the ribs with a stick for long enough, you're going to lose an arm.

Nobody has ever been banned for simply disagreeing with me. Also there are numerous occassions on the site where I have held my hand up and said "yep, you know what, your right".

You of all people should know this, you were banned by him at one time from BKN forum. Were you being professional, is that why you got banned?

I have not banned Kris and have the greatest respect for him both as a person and a financial professional. If the situation had arisen on my watch Kris would not have been banned but then the situation would never have been allowed to get to the stage where he was.

Like I said, if he wants a proper debate on any subject, don't hide behind the security of being a moderator and jibing people that don't agree with him.

That line that you keep coming out with is totally wrong. Anyone can debate on the BKN forum but its the ICB forum that hides behind restricted posting meaning that I cannot answer the accusations on that forum and my only option is to take them to BKN.

Drop the posting restrictions and I'll quite happily give my responses over there.

Whilst we're on that matter, in an earlier post on the ICB forum (just after you had been banned from here) you made comment that the ICB forum has been around longer than BKN and implied that we are attempting to steal your readership.

Again you were guessing at the situation quite incorrectly. BKN has been around much longer than the ICB site and we were getting around a million hits a month when the ICB decided to adopt the site name that they did.

In some ways you could regard this site as the best advertising that the ICB site ever had!

Don't waste that with rash, ill conceived, factually incorrect comments.

Shaun.

I don't see where this them and us attitude has come from between there and here. More than a few times now Sarah has picked up on something being said here and instead of posting where everyone can discuss it, she copies it to the ICB forum and starts off on a rant. I really don't understand why. It doesn't look professional.

Kris

Hi Everyone,

 

I'm not posting this to try to start world war 3, 4 or maybe even 5 or 6. The following should be taken constructively:

 

I've just attended the Glasgow ICB Conference and the feedback from everyone I spoke to relating to what they got from the event was very positive. One lady in particular came from the Newcastle area and, as I found out later, is Chair of the ICB branch in that area. I have to say that she, and every other ICB Chair, deserves great credit for the effort they put into helping the ICB members in their area. The ICB have a network of over 40 (as I found out today) Member led branches and they make available a plethora of speakers and events to benefit members in their area. I mentioned this earlier in this thread and it went largely overlooked, but I wanted to highlight this as it covers the provision of support provided for bookkeepers with small client bases and, indeed, students with aspirations of setting out as bookkeepers. I should add that this is provided with the full support of ICB.

 

In recent times, maybe over the last year or so, there have been quite a few heated discussions based on the ICB qualification or organisation where, in my opinion, certain comments could and should have been better considered. Using the heading to this thread as an example, it is completely negative and the first post concentrates on pricing. When it's pointed out that perhaps the pricing isn't too bad based on the benefit for the member, then the locality is pointed out. Yet, we also have people complaining that everything is always London and when an event on their doorstep and they still dont attend. More often than not there is negativity. For those that cant afford the conference fees then the Branches are a first class alternative.

 

 

I do notice a general downturn in activity on this forum from the bookkeeping side of things and, Personally, I'm quite sad about this as this was always a good community for bookkeepers and accountants, where there was regular banter. But many regulars are no longer around and, of course, there may be reasons for this but perhaps those who wish to be bookkeepers and not accountants dont really get any encouragement anymore. This is certainly the feedback I get from our own student base. 

Hi Brian,

nope, no downturn.

There were less posts on both the ICB site and this one from Jan through to the start of April but both sites have picked up nicely since then (they do seem to very much stay in step with postings).

Thinking about it, thats understandable as the gap between the january madness and the year end does seem each year to be getting smaller and smaller.

As for the gap between accountants and bookkeepers. I think that the ICB's realisation that people need to offer accounting services in order to make a living sort of squashed any encouragement for people to be stopping at trial balance.

The ICB qualifications sights now seem formly fixed on the AAT market (just look at the MICB syllabus and the fact that ICB now advertise in accountancy magazines such as PQ) and I can see any war not being a cold one on here but rather a hot one out there amongst the professional bodies as AAT are not going to relinquish market share easily.

As for conference fee's for members and students. Should not the emphasis be on making the conferences accessible to all?

The reasoning that for Londoners the prices do not seem expensive is immaterial. The rest of the country have the additional costs of travel and finding accomodation where in many cases they will be on much lower rates than members in the South East.

If people are not turning up to events then surely the question that should be asked with some urgency is why certain elements of the membership are becoming disenfranchised?

Also, with all due respect to your student base we have had a lot of people asking about becoming bookkeepers on here and the answers have been engineered to their circumstances. On some occassions the advice has been ICB/IAB on others AAT.

We have not discouraged anyone from this field and I am wondering why your students may be thinking such.

What we have done is where someone indicates that they want to keep employment as an option we have always emphasised that they should consider AAT as that is recognised by employers where ICB and IAB are not.

In certain elements AAT is the better qualification (#1) but in others there is little to choose between the qualifications except for current recognition by employers.

I am not suggesting that it will always be that way but people are not asking what qualification they sho0uld take to find a job ten year down the line, they want to find one now.

Just because someone is AAT rather than ICB or IAB does not mean that they are not a bookkeeper if that is what they choose to be.

Bookkeeping and ICB are not synonymous. One can choose to be a bookkeeper no matter which professional body they are with. The only thing that defines being a bookkeeper is that you only work to trial balance. If you work beyond that then even if you are doing bookkeeping work you are to all intent and purpose an accountant.

The acid test is in what one does, not what nameplate you put on your desk.

There you go, no world wars, just freindly debate with us both making valid points.

kind regards,

Shaun.


#1 AAT wins on Ethics, tax, financial reporting standards, management accounting. ICB wins on Self assessment and Payroll

-- Edited by Shamus on Monday 12th of May 2014 09:20:36 PM

Theresa,

While I understand the feeling of being a bit protective, there is a fear that this turns into the emperors new clothes.  I have put a lot of effort into my volunteering with the Police.  Blood, sweat and tears (more blood than I care to give too) I have put into it over 10 years, but I don't agree with every policy decision they make.  This is healthy.  For some the relationship with a professional body is more akin to a follower of a religious cult, or political party where they are so blinded by their belief and loyalty that they can't bring themselves to question anything.

My other point, as you dived to the defence of Sarah I will ask you, why does she feel the need to pick up posts here ad post on the ICB forum with a reply where many others can't?  It doesn't make much sense to me other than to start a them and us culture which I would rather not have.

Personally, I think the ICB general direction is right, but I think they make a lot of stupid and short sighted policy decision.  I am not above saying this either.  I also don't remember being asked for my opinion on the summit either.

Kris 

kjmcculloch83 wrote:

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Brian McVean wrote:

---

Using the heading to this thread as an example, it is completely negative

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 And now to show how impartial you are Brian, I look forward to seeing this posted on the ICB forum where the title was 'almost' replicated.

Kris

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The post on ICB forum had nothing to do with me, Kris, and as far I could see Sarah added to the title heading offering her support to ICB. It is not for me to comment as to why Sarah did not comment directly to this thread but I'm sure she has her reasons.

Shamus wrote:

---

Hi Brian,

nope, no downturn. You're the one with the stats and I stand corrected. My observation was based on the fact that there are quite a few regular posters who are no longer present. I know there can be many reasons for this but there are times when postings under ceryain categories have 10-14 day gaps which in the past was never the case.

There were less posts on both the ICB site and this one from Jan through to the start of April but both sites have picked up nicely since then (they do seem to very much stay in step with postings).

Thinking about it, thats understandable as the gap between the january madness and the year end does seem each year to be getting smaller and smaller.

As for the gap between accountants and bookkeepers. I think that the ICB's realisation that people need to offer accounting services in order to make a living sort of squashed any encouragement for people to be stopping at trial balance.

The ICB qualifications sights now seem formly fixed on the AAT market (just look at the MICB syllabus and the fact that ICB now advertise in accountancy magazines such as PQ) and I can see any war not being a cold one on here but rather a hot one out there amongst the professional bodies as AAT are not going to relinquish market share easily. In my 22 years with IDEAL we have also offered IAB training, amongst others, and the traditional Level III qualification has always contained the completion of accounts for all the main business types. Sure, there is a distinction between bookkeepers and accountants, but the completion of Trial Balance is no longer where the line is drawn. Any bookkeeper worth there salt should have a knowledge of the completion of final accounting reports, whether they choose to use that skill in practice or not. As far as I am aware the recent changes within the ICB qualification structure were based on the National occupational Standards (NOS) and not AAT.

As for conference fee's for members and students. Should not the emphasis be on making the conferences accessible to all? We've had it confirmed from a couple of posters that they are returning to the conference and I stated that I have met many repeat visitors. I am sure if it was not money well spent they would not go back. The provision of the branch meetings does give ALL members access to conference standard speakers and events in a smaller scale where costs are lower.

The reasoning that for Londoners the prices do not seem expensive is immaterial. The rest of the country have the additional costs of travel and finding accomodation where in many cases they will be on much lower rates than members in the South East.

If people are not turning up to events then surely the question that should be asked with some urgency is why certain elements of the membership are becoming disenfranchised? I mentioned a single event which was actually very well received by all in attendance. Indeed, many who attended the conference in Edinburgh also attended todays gathering in Glasgow. I'll mention it again byt the regional branch meetings are really helping in this resepct.

Also, with all due respect to your student base we have had a lot of people asking about becoming bookkeepers on here and the answers have been engineered to their circumstances. On some occassions the advice has been ICB/IAB on others AAT. 

We have not discouraged anyone from this field and I am wondering why your students may be thinking such. I was only passing on general feedback which I'm sure that all at BKN would be interested in. it does appear to be backed up by a couple of previous posters in this thread.

What we have done is where someone indicates that they want to keep employment as an option we have always emphasised that they should consider AAT as that is recognised by employers where ICB and IAB are not.

In certain elements AAT is the better qualification (#1) but in others there is little to choose between the qualifications except for current recognition by employers.

I am not suggesting that it will always be that way but people are not asking what qualification they sho0uld take to find a job ten year down the line, they want to find one now.

Just because someone is AAT rather than ICB or IAB does not mean that they are not a bookkeeper if that is what they choose to be. 

Bookkeeping and ICB are not synonymous. One can choose to be a bookkeeper no matter which professional body they are with. The only thing that defines being a bookkeeper is that you only work to trial balance. If you work beyond that then even if you are doing bookkeeping work you are to all intent and purpose an accountant.

The acid test is in what one does, not what nameplate you put on your desk.

There you go, no world wars, just freindly debate with us both making valid points.

kind regards,

Shaun.


#1 AAT wins on Ethics, tax, financial reporting standards, management accounting. ICB wins on Self assessment and Payroll

-- Edited by Shamus on Monday 12th of May 2014 09:20:36 PM

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