MLR For Dummies! - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

EPF_Solutions · Senior Member

MLR For Dummies!

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

I think that the naughtiest thing was slipping tax evasion into anti terrorist legislation. But, that aside, you hit the nail on the head. A client that is doing jobs on the side is evading their tax liability and if you don't report it then you get in trouble.

Also, if you tell the client that they are being reported for tax evasion that too is a criminal offence on your part (tipping off).

What we do is try and keep clients on the straight and narrow before it gets to that stage by educating them that operating outside of normal business practices will not be tollerated and will be discovered.

Most clients are happy to work within the system if they feel that they are being treated fairly in the amount of Tax and NI that they pay.

However, you will come across some who believe that paying an accountant is an alternative to paying tax.

For those you just need to emphasise that our job is to ensure that they pay the right amount and no more. It is not to eradicate their tax liability but rather to reduce their exposure to interest, penalties and surcharges which can often be disproportionate to the actual tax liability.

About now I'm sure that your thinking, but isn't all this making me a policeman of my own clients?

And yep, thats exactly what its doing.

HMRC cottoned on to the fact that the accountant "should" know their clients business affairs so by criminalising the mere knoweldge that a client has paid insufficient tax such places emphasis on the financial professional to do HMRC's job for them.

Your get out of jail free card is reporting the clients wrongdoing which will like as not cost you the client but the benefit is that we stay out of jail.

There is no deminimus limit to the amount of tax evasion.

Just look at each situation on its own merits. It should be obvious when there has been a genuine mistake as opposed to an actual fraud being commited.

Kind regards,

Shaun.

Peasie · Expert

An army of unpaid employees of HMRC in other words.

EPF_Solutions · Senior Member

Peasie wrote:
An army of unpaid employees of HMRC in other words.

That's not how I'd put it, but then I think the government are using 1984 as a training manual. And we're not unpaid, as we have to pay them for the "privilege".

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Spot on Peasie.

Anyway, I haven't got to worry about this anymore as aparently a solicitor in Nigeria has been trying to track me down for some time has finally found me in order to let me know that I have been left millions in will from some distant relative.

As soon as I've passed all of my personal and bank details over (to prove who I am and to allow them to deposit the funds) I'm going to be rich :)

lol.

There must be some muppet out there that that works on otherwise surely they would get fed up and stop.

Peasie · Expert

Lucky you. I've got a court appearance to go to - but I don't know where, when or more importantly what for. Because the zip file in the email that contains the details also contains a virus.

EPF_Solutions · Senior Member

It's a court appearance that I want to avoid!!!! So if I find out a client has put a tenner in his back pocket for doing a bit on the side, I could end up in one if I don't drop him in it!

How many billions of our money did the bankers get bailed out with when they almost bankrupted the country, and not one of them ended up in jail?

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Think that you should be saying how many Trillion John.

You would be surprised at the daily throughput of the UK clearing system. You don't think of it as money. It's just numbers and currency is just stock the same as a can of beans to a supermarket.

To be fair to the bankers the UK only got into trouble by buying into an American problem and America only got into trouble because they borrowed too much from China which fuelled the initial bout of sub prime lending (The debt to China that hasn't disappeared simply because America lost the money it borrowed... Bit like a bank loaning money to a gambler secured on the gamblers house), and China only had money to burn because western consumers wanted the best quality goods at give away prices.

So really, it's not the poor bankers, it's all your fault.

And mine.

And everyone else who did not pay a fair price to buy local (so just about everyone then).

Don't you just love a global economy.

EPF_Solutions · Senior Member

Anyway, about this client who puts a tenner in his back pocket! Do I really have to report him? Would I really have to risk losing a client over it to protect myself?

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

You make it sound as though there is some level where we are permitted to condone unethical behaviour.

We must at all times act with utmost integrity, why should we expect less of our clients?

Also, as mentioned previously, there is no deminimus limit to criminal action under Money Laundering regulations.

Thats like telling clients that they do not need to pay any tax on the first x amount of income effectively extending personal allowances for the self employed.

If a client is dishonest then there is no difference between the crime being £1 or £1000 or £100,000. It is still a crime.

That said, £1 would be more likely to be a rounding error and even I would not waste anyone's time reporting that.

But thats not really what we're talking about is it. We're talking about the odd £100 where someone has done a job on the side and not declared it through their books.

Thats never acceptable.

Remeber though that clients make mistakes and one must never confuse innocent mistakes with criminal intent.

Unwize Owl · Senior Member

I know it sounds harsh and to an extent that is true, but the estimates of just how much fiddling goes on are astounding.

Mostly it is being aware and educating the client.

As an example I am aware of a gent who earns his money teaching music. This is principally a cash in hand operation, it would therefore be very easy for him to forget what he has taken in any given week - the solution: Get him to write receipts for everything - whether he hands them out or not I don't care, just so long as he writes them and gives me the copies to put in the books. One month of this and he has discovered he was earning nearly half again as much as he thought. So was this fraud? No - just a careless attitude - he had no intent to get it wrong.

Oh, and this chap is a goal setter type - his goal for this year? Become a tax payer! Looking at the first two months of books he will need to increase his own client base to achieve that - but that is more info on his business than he has ever had. He is going to be so chuffed when he can turn to his partner and say 'I have to pay tax this year'. As far as he is concerned that is an achievement, a proof of income level and a measure of success.

This sort of example is repeated across the country, little businesses, not meaning to do wrong but unaware they are under declaring income. Point out the error of their ways, give them a solution that is easy to add to their routine and they instantly correct what they are doing and, coincidentally, provide better paper trail.

There are crooks out there, people who won't pay and do all they can to fudge the facts - they should be shopped and stopped but I suspect they are the people who can add up and therefore do not generally need a bookkeeper.

Peasie · Expert

Unwize Owl wrote:
Oh, and this chap is a goal setter type - his goal for this year? Become a tax payer! Looking at the first two months of books he will need to increase his own client base to achieve that - but that is more info on his business than he has ever had. He is going to be so chuffed when he can turn to his partner and say 'I have to pay tax this year'. As far as he is concerned that is an achievement, a proof of income level and a measure of success.

And that evil Chancellor is just making things harder for him by increasing the amount at which you start to pay tax each year.

EPF_Solutions · Senior Member

Fair enough, if the definition of terrorism in paragraph 2.1 of the CCAB Guidance didn't describe what many big businesses, with the support of the government themselves, are getting away with, and it was a level playing field. Maybe I should try to get work with some of them, so I can drop them in it smile .

As I appear to be the only BKN member in Wales, and am in one of the wilder parts of it, I have a feeling I may be more likely to come across potential clients who like to stick two fingers up at the English Government, and do things their own way! Not being a native or speaking the language will hopefully protect me from some of this risk!

At least it makes things very clear and straightforward, with no grey areas.

matt123 · Senior Member

Im in Wales :)

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

EPF_Solutions wrote:
Fair enough, if the definition of terrorism in paragraph 2.1 of the CCAB Guidance didn't describe what many big businesses, with the support of the government themselves, are getting away with, and it was a level playing field. Maybe I should try to get work with some of them, so I can drop them in it .

As I appear to be the only BKN member in Wales, and am in one of the wilder parts of it, I have a feeling I may be more likely to come across potential clients who like to stick two fingers up at the English Government, and do things their own way! Not being a native or speaking the language will hopefully protect me from some of this risk!

At least it makes things very clear and straightforward, with no grey areas.

I impemented FATF VII and can categorically say that big business take money laundering very seriously.

The big boys do not break the rules but they employ the best accountants and legal teams to ensure that they minimise exposure and maximise profits whilst operating within the rules.

The issue is not that they are doing anything wrong but small businesses cannot afford the same sort of financial and legal support to do likewise.

The Government is not so much in collusion with big business as outgunned by it as do you really think that the best minds work in Government? Why do you think that the best tax inspectors get jobs with the big four?

Conversely being Welsh is not a good reason to ignore the rules and you should not contemptlate enabling such poor behaviour.

Doesn't matter your age, colour, race, religion, political or sexual orientation. Tax and death are the great levellers that apply to all.

Yep, I know that I was paraphrasing Benjamin Franklins famous quote "Nothing is certain in life but death and taxes". (Which he didn't actually come up with but he was the one that made it famous).

So, as for not speaking the language. Have you walked into a room yet where everyone is speaking English only for everyone to suddenly drop into speaking Welsh when they suspect an English person in the room.

Of course, there is absolutely no reason that you would not understand everything said in a business context in Wales as all business conversations will be in English (same rules apply in India).

As you say, there are no grey areas.

kind regards,

Shaun.

p.s. My CV for answering the above... I'm of Welsh decent on both sides. I've also done a lot of business in Wales (with businesses that pay their taxes) and three of my children were raised there.

EPF_Solutions · Senior Member

matt123 wrote:
Im in Wales :)

Are you in the directory Matt? I had a brief look through and didn't see any other Welsh locations?

Unwize Owl · Senior Member

Peasie wrote:
Unwize Owl wrote:
Oh, and this chap is a goal setter type - his goal for this year? Become a tax payer! Looking at the first two months of books he will need to increase his own client base to achieve that - but that is more info on his business than he has ever had. He is going to be so chuffed when he can turn to his partner and say 'I have to pay tax this year'. As far as he is concerned that is an achievement, a proof of income level and a measure of success.
And that evil Chancellor is just making things harder for him by increasing the amount at which you start to pay tax each year.

This place needs a like button!

matt123 · Senior Member

EPF_Solutions wrote:
matt123 wrote:
Im in Wales :)
Are you in the directory Matt? I had a brief look through and didn't see any other Welsh locations?

No I'm not on the directory. I thought you meant forum users.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

I think that in this instance being the only BKN member in an area is similar to being the only Certified bookkeeper in an area in that neither make you the only bookkeeper in an area.

Bit like saying that there's only one blue skittle in a bag. It doesn't make it the only skittle. Just makes it the only one in that colour.

EPF_Solutions · Senior Member

Shamus wrote:
I think that in this instance being the only BKN member in an area is similar to being the only Certified bookkeeper in an area in that neither make you the only bookkeeper in an area.

Bit like saying that there's only one blue skittle in a bag. It doesn't make it the only skittle. Just makes it the only one in that colour.

In an area? I'm the only one in the whole country! Maybe there's no demand here because every business is afraid of being reported if they don't cook, sorry keep, the books themselves!!!!!

matt123 · Senior Member

I just think that £24 is better spent elsewhere :)

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

EPF_Solutions wrote:
Shamus wrote:
I think that in this instance being the only BKN member in an area is similar to being the only Certified bookkeeper in an area in that neither make you the only bookkeeper in an area.

Bit like saying that there's only one blue skittle in a bag. It doesn't make it the only skittle. Just makes it the only one in that colour.

In an area? I'm the only one in the whole country! Maybe there's no demand here because every business is afraid of being reported if they don't cook, sorry keep, the books themselves!!!!!

As I say, being the only blue skittle does not make you the only skittle.

I tried looking at the ICB find a bookkeeper but thats useless and couldn't even find any bookkeepers in London!

I entered CF which is Cardiff and it found 55 around high wycombe? Used central London postcodes (SW1) and got nothing.

I would have thought that getting that service right on the new site would have been one of ICB's highest priorities.... Just tried a couple of postcodes from the websites of bookkeepers I know on here and the search didn't find them. Has everyone chosen not to be in the directory?

However, the IAB site is easy to find their members and there are 13 in South Wales, 3 in central wales and 9 in North Wales (I doubt if I found all of them as my searches were 50 mile radiuses of Swansea, Conwy and Aberystwyth).

I would assume from ICB telling us that they are the biggest that they must have more than that but with their current website we may never know.

Thats not even taking into consideration the Welsh AAT contingent and considerations such as ACCA students working as bookkeepers whilst they study.

As their financial representitive it's your job to ensure that any element of clients assuming that not adhering to regulation is in any way acceptable is crushed immediately. I would hope those that you cannot convince of that you would walk away from as it is not our role to enable such behaviour.

The Welsh people are for the most part as honest as people anywhere else. There will be a few bad egg's but overall people try their best to stick to the rules and regulations.

Can you tell that it's Welsh blood running through me and I'm proud of it.

Shaun.

EPF_Solutions · Senior Member

IAB - 1 within 50 miles of my postcode area (that covers a big area), who is about 20 miles from me

ICB - 2 from entering my complete postcode, one 10 miles away and the other about 15

I'm in SA38

EPF_Solutions · Senior Member

matt123 wrote:
I just think that £24 is better spent elsewhere :)

Not being a member of anything that would provide any support, I wanted to see what useful stuff is available to members. And I get a fancy logo to stick on my website! And a directory entry as the only book-keeper in Wales smile .

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

How did you get the ICB site to work John?

I even typed in exact postcodes of people that I know are ICB bookkeeping practices and it didn't find them.

On the ICB site

Went to find a bookkeeper

Browse Directory

I used SA38 9AH

Doesn't even return a map. Just a message saying no results found please adjust your search. Did the same with Kris' postcode... Nothing.

What are you doing that I'm not?

Hang on, let me just try something... Nope, thought that maybe it just wasn't working with Firefox but tried it with Explorer and got exactly the same.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Exhibit A.

icb screenshot.jpg

-- Edited by Shamus on Thursday 22nd of May 2014 01:28:21 PM

matt123 · Senior Member

The percentage of potential clients using the search to find a bookkeeper is tiny. And I mean all the searches. IAB, ICB, AAT etc etc.

Most people will either google for a bookkeeper get told by other business owners*.

*This is my opinion - I have not stats to back this up!

-- Edited by matt123 on Thursday 22nd of May 2014 12:42:36 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

matt123 wrote:
The percentage of potential clients using the search to find a bookkeeper is tiny. And I mean all the searches. IAB, ICB, AAT etc etc.

Most people will either google for a bookkeeper get told by other business owners*.

I think that your right Matt but is that any reason to accept that the facility doesn't seem to work when it's used as one of the selling point for membership?

matt123 · Senior Member

Shamus wrote:
matt123 wrote:
The percentage of potential clients using the search to find a bookkeeper is tiny. And I mean all the searches. IAB, ICB, AAT etc etc.

Most people will either google for a bookkeeper get told by other business owners*.
I think that your right Matt but is that any reason to accept that the facility doesn't seem to work when it's used as one of the selling point for membership?

Of course it's not acceptable. Wasn't questioning that at all :)

EPF_Solutions · Senior Member

Works for me in Firefox, after allowing various things in NoScript. I'm almost in the middle of them.

Screenshot 2014-05-22 13.00.38.png

Peasie · Expert

ICB search works in Google Chrome - just thought I'd add.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Nope, used the same post code and nothing.

Generally my first assumption when something like this happens is that I must have done something wrong but in this case its not as though it doesn't work at all as I've seen the 55 bookkeepers just to the left of London.

Fingers crossed James will read this and look into it.

Anyway, so, you're in little England (Pembrokeshire)

My three were brought up in Milford Haven before they moved along the coast to Cardiff.

When I worked in Swansea (there for about 18 months on a chip card encryption project) I had to tell the other guys in the office that my children were in England as in Swansea Welsh people living in England is preferable to them living in Cardiff.

EPF_Solutions · Senior Member

Carmarthenshire actually!

Peasie · Expert

From memory - you also have to agree that you want to be on this list - you don't go on it automatically.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

not much in it though. Bet if you spat out of your front door it would go over the border, lol.

Are you not in the area where the English have virtually bought the majority of the place... No, sorry, my mistake. Thats France that we've bought isn't it (Germany had totally the wrong idea. Far easier to own a place with a cheque books than tank's).

Reminds me, it's polling day isn't it. Must just pop and vote to get us out of Europe.

Rhianrach · Expert

Shamus wrote:
not much in it though. Bet if you spat out of your front door it would go over the border, lol.

Are you not in the area where the English have virtually bought the majority of the place... No, sorry, my mistake. Thats France that we've bought isn't it (Germany had totally the wrong idea. Far easier to own a place with a cheque books than tank's).

Reminds me, it's polling day isn't it. Must just pop and vote to get us out of Europe.

I'm not here to argue, I'm just going to ask your reasoning for wanting out of Europe before I make my final decision. I like to here peoples opinions just in case they know something I don't :)

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Steve,

Sorry, been AFK for a while.

The world is a global market place and much of our business is off rather than on shore. Something that the politicians get a lot of mileage from when discussing the in/out issue.

What they gloss over is that UK business is just as closely tied with the US, India and China as it is with Europe and the scare mongering that we would be at some disadvantage by not being part of the club is just that, scare mongering.

The reality is that we live in a divided Europe with considerable history that is being tyre levered into a union that does not fit. If someone were to draw a cross through Europe with everything North and West of the lines being in and everything South and East of the lines being out then I might be more flexible in my views (yep, even over France).

I do not feel that it is wise for the stronger economies to be part of a club with the weaker ones and I think that to remain in the same club as the likes of Spain, Italy and Greece exposes the UK economy to unneccessary domino effect risk (if one goes (as one will) the others rapidly fall as per a line of dominoes).

I also believe that we should have more control over our own borders, health, education and benefits systems than it is possible to have whilst policy is dictated from Brussels.

Basically, take all of the arguements that Scotland has for independance from policy being made in Westminster and apply that the Europe question.

As I say though. A single European block made up only of the stronger players would be a totally different prospect but I cannot see either ourselves or Germany ever being happy with the current state of affairs.

After coming back from the polling station I fear that the vote for out may however be too diluted. There were 16 candidates on my form and 11 of them were out of Europe parties which is going to end up diluting the UKIP vote.

Anyway, thats my reasoning for wanting out.

Rhianrach · Expert

Hi Shaun

Thanks for the reply, you have pretty much covered the one issue that I was struggling with. It always feels like a gamble opting out of Europe, as it must do opting out of the UK for the Scottish.

I am led to believe that we have the majority of out trade agreements with Europe, that these would end and we would be in trouble. Then I thought, the likes of Germany wouldn't stop trading with us, how many of their products do we buy. Then I realised that we are still going strong in the more specialized areas of manufacturing etc etc, so why would the major European players stop trading with us.

In short, if all we have to lose is the crazy bureaucracy then yeah it may be a net benefit being out of there.

The problem now is what party can keep us on track to a recovery, improve peoples standard of living and pull us out of Europe. If only there was a system where you could vote for a party for a single policy :)

Of course all of it is of no consequence until 2015, that's the election that can give you a party to pull us out.

EPF_Solutions · Senior Member

Shamus wrote:
not much in it though. Bet if you spat out of your front door it would go over the border, lol.

Are you not in the area where the English have virtually bought the majority of the place... No, sorry, my mistake. Thats France that we've bought isn't it (Germany had totally the wrong idea. Far easier to own a place with a cheque books than tank's).

Reminds me, it's polling day isn't it. Must just pop and vote to get us out of Europe.

The nearest border is with Ceredigion, but I can't spit right across the village, a field and half the River Teifi! Anyway, I don't have a front door, only a back one!

There's plenty of people speaking a language I don't understand around here, and who aren't immigrants!

Just back from the polling station, where I voted for a party that actively tries to reform Europe, and will give us a vote on staying in or leaving. And would reverse the trend for turning our country into a corporate police state, where (getting back on topic ) we have to pay for the "privilege" of spying on our clients if we want to work in our chosen occupation. Believe it or not, there is one, despite being almost totally ignored by the media, and they have more elected politicians than UKIP, and have the polices that most people say they actually want.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Well, haven't worked out who you voted for but from the description its obviously not labour.

Could be the LibDem's although you threw me with the last line about having policies that people want.

Anyway, non of my business. Everyone has the right to vote for who and what they believe in. Others can argue that they are right but nobody can tell you that you are wrong.

That makes sense to me anyway.

Plus, I only voted for UKIP as there was no candidate standing for the Freedom for Tooting party.

EPF_Solutions · Senior Member

That shows how biased the media is doesn't it. You probably didn't even know the Green Party were standing, despite their successes in previous elections.

UKIP are the fanatical wing of the Tory Party, so anything the Tories do they would do far worse, and the LibDems have totally blown it by getting into bed with the Tories. Not sure what Labour are up to, but my Plaid Cymru MP refers to them as Red Tories, and they seem to only slightly to the left of the Blue Tories. They're all in bed with big business, and that's bad news for the small ones we work with, as it's big business that's pushing things like the secret TTIP agreement that gives them frightening power over governments to get their way at the expense of everyone else. Is there actually any need for things like the MLR to be so rigidly imposed in a way that affects a small business doing a few cash jobs, but lets big business get away with billions by biasing the rules in their favour? There's a lot of scary stuff going on that doesn't appear in the mainstream media.

Peasie · Expert

From MLR to UKIP - do you think the topic has strayed a bit?

EPF_Solutions · Senior Member

Peasie wrote:
From MLR to UKIP - do you think the topic has strayed a bit?

I was thinking that, but I didn't start the straying! I just started the topic to clarify what MLR covered. Anyone who wants to wander into the territory it's wandered into needs to check the sort of stuff I discuss on Facebook, if they want to avoid me responding to it smile .

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

you'll get used to it John.

Don't expect any thread that people such as Bill, Rob, Neil, Tim, Dave, Nick, Kris, Steve, Michelle, Joanne, Theresa, Amanda or myself are part of to remain on or even close to the subject matter that the thread started on (or even necessarily end up related to bookkeeping / accountancy).

But who really wants a site thats just another help desk. Far better I think the way that this site has developed into a virtual office complete with chats at the coffee machine about everything from the elections to the price of fish. The odd bit of flirting with fellow workers and quite a lot of humour.

EPF_Solutions · Senior Member

Don't worry, I'm already well used to it, and have been know to indulge in it in other places smile . Just a bit concerned that the law might creep up and nab me while I'm busy flirting or discussing the price of fish, if I'm not clear about the reason I started this discussion. I'd rather be discussing it in a bar, rather than from behind them!

Now I really must get on and finish my web site, so I can find some clients to spy on!!!!

-- Edited by EPF_Solutions on Friday 23rd of May 2014 03:17:33 PM

Wella · Expert

Shamus wrote:
you'll get used to it John.

Don't expect any thread that people such as Bill, Rob, Neil, Tim, Dave, Nick, Kris, Steve, Michelle, Joanne, Theresa, Amanda or myself are part of to remain on or even close to the subject matter that the thread started on (or even necessarily end up related to bookkeeping / accountancy).

But who really wants a site thats just another help desk. Far better I think the way that this site has developed into a virtual office complete with chats at the coffee machine about everything from the elections to the price of fish. The odd bit of flirting with fellow workers and quite a lot of humour.

Not sure why your thought of me first? biggrin

ilsm · Senior Member

How I love threads that meander from topic to topic! Who cares if there's never any final conclusion?

Shaun said: "Basically, take all of the arguements that Scotland has for independance from policy being made in Westminster and apply that the Europe question."

That set me wondering: Does that validate Scotland's push for separation (I avoid the word independence, because Scotland has never been subject to English, Welsh or NI rule; it has simply been part of a Union). If it is, then so be it. If, however, Scotland's arguments are still held to be wrong, then they cannot be used to justify the UK leaving the EU.

Anyway, doesn't Scotland want to stay in the EU ... even though England (i.e., the Tories (who took us in(!)), UKIP & BNP), who worry about Romanian gangsters and Polish workers coming here - does anyone ever think of Germany in the 1920s? - want to take the whole UK out? I wonder which way an "independent" Wales (always subjugated by England) would go, or a separate Ulster.

In my humble view the "commercial" arguments against staying in the EU are nonsense. And it appears that most outside observers think so too. Why disadvantage ourselves by removing ourselves from our biggest market simply in order to enable us to trade with the people we are already free to trade with? The arguments against staying in are all political - and parochial - not commercial or economic.

But the greatest thing about the EU is that there has never been a war between any Member countries since it started, and with ever closer union the chances of war will always diminish. With separation comes political conflict ... and from there could come war. Look at Russia, Georgia, Ukraine, Chechnya and the rest. Look how scared Poland, Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania are of the Russian Bear. That's an example of what happens when political unions break up. Roll on Federation!

... so ... a war between Scotland and England? Hmmmm.

-- Edited by ilsm on Saturday 24th of May 2014 12:13:13 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Iain,

I was actually thinking of the origins of the general Belgrano thread when I wrote the above reply

Grouping BNP with the Conservatives and UKIP is not right and only plays to leftist stereotyping. There is no racicm or other intollerences inherent in the policies of UKIP or the Conservatives. Lets knock that conversation on its head as I don't want this site to even recognise the existence of the BNP as giving them air time only works in their favour.

All further discussion in relation to the BNP will be removed from posts as that organisation is tied to rascism and religous intollerance and will as such not be given air time here.

That aside, quite happy to start a debate over the rest of the thread.

You are right that there has never been a war between any member state but wasn't it Angela Merkle that predicted a serious war in Europe before 2018 due to a Euro zone meltdown which will grow if the weaker states (The East and South that I refer to above) are allowed to remain at the party.

I was working in Slovenia, a very Western European country in attitude and financial stability before they were allowed into the European Union. The invasion by Serbia was a proper tanks rolling down the streets war in Europe.

Living in Ljubljana felt no different to living in any other European town but that did not stop the invasion... That said, such should come as a lesson to invaders that you do not try picking on any country right next to the supplier of the worlds best small arms (Austria.... Actually, Israel may debate that statement).

Seperating Russia and the Ukrain was the equivalent of seperating the Northern and Southern states of the USA. I do not see that the seperation of the Ukraine was ever going to work for anyone except America and Western Europe who wanted to weaken the position of the countries of the Warsaw Pact.

Your arguement for there being a single European state is based on trade ageements that can actually exist quite happily without any necessity for the intertwining of laws and national identities which is the goal of Europe being run from Brussels.

If England were seperate from Scotland do you think that we would stop trading with them? Do you think that there would be cross border Tariffs? Of course not. Scotland wants the right to make its own decisions but it doesn't want to destroy its own economy in the process.

Why can Europe not be run on the same principle of freedom of cross border trade without tieing political ambitions to the economics.

I know, why don't we call it something like a common Market... wink

ilsm · Senior Member

Ignoring the existence of something won't make it go away. Forbidding mention of it is pure censorship and a form of intolerance itself. Not that I disagree with the sentiments behind this particular ban, just the ban itself. The reason I mentioned those parties, and my allusion to what happened in the Wiemar Republic was because I foresee UKIP's and ___'s appeals to our baser instincts could produce a similar result. And if the Germans thought of themselves as the Master Race, wait till you see how the Brits do it! We've had centuries to practice oppression, and we brought genocide to an art form. It just needs one charismatic fanatic with a grudge. Farage doesn't fit the bill, but who is waiting in the wings?

And it's this perceived elitism, attributed mainly to the English, that led to Irish independence and now nourishes Scottish nationalism.

I believe the UK is still a racially intolerant nation ... after the Yellow Peril at the end of C19th we had the Irish and Moseley's anti-Semitism in the 20s, then in the 50s & 60s, it was the West Indians who were destroying Britain's sublimely superior culture. Meanwhile, we were packing poor orphans (and non-orphans) off to the colonies to work as near slaves (sometimes sex slaves) under the supervision of the Church. After that, Indians and Pakistanis flooded in from Asia, filling the country to overflowing, and then they came in from Africa, yet again there was no room. And now it's Poles, Romanians and east Europeans generally - and still we have no room. Essex Man epitomises this attitude, but there are other forms of racism here, too, and sectarianism, homophobia and social division everywhere.

In my opinion the Conservatives, UKIP and ___ feature at 7, 9 and 11 respectively on a scale of racial intolerance rising from 1 to 10 ... and Labour probably at 4 or 5 (and the LibDems are up there with the Tories).

But let's not talk about it.

I do agree that if Scotland becomes independent, trade will continue much as before. And everything will be paid for in sterling - despite what Osborne and the rest say ... unless England imposes currency controls against Scotland, alone in all the world! Standard Life take note. Likewise, if the UK leaves the EU, most trade will continue as before, both with the EU and with other countries. So, to my mind, the economic/commercial arguments are redundant. Merkel, whom you have quoted, is strongly in favour of closer UK participation in the EU. As are many outside observers from China to USA. It seems perverse, to me, to want to leave for insular reasons that are no better than spurious. The same is true for Scotland.

That leaves only the political considerations.

The EU is, on balance, a force for peace. The conflicts you mention would not have happened had those countries been within the EU at the time ... and they weren't in the EU at the time because of the friction that existed between them, or within them. They were not politically stable. As for Merkel, I believe you are referring to the time she said that war could result from monetary instability. She had a 50 year timescale in mind (so I might be thinking of something different from you) when she said, "If the euro fails, Europe fails." She did not necessarily mean Luxembourg would go to war with Portugal, or Germany with Greece. Very likely any resultant war would have been the EU v Russia, fought by proxy in eastern Europe or the Middle East (but I could be stretching a point here). What she really meant was, by closer integration, economic and political, peace would follow, but without it, anything could happen. It was an argument for European unity, including Britain. I couldn't agree more.

Yet whingeing voices still urge separation. Small politicians flourish chiefly in small countries: there's your reason. Salmond was/would be lost in Westminster; he is no Paisley.

(Self-censored in deference to the ban imposed in the previous post)

-- Edited by ilsm on Saturday 24th of May 2014 07:48:32 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

No time to debate this properly at the moment but I will say that if you think that the UK is racially intollerant try going and living in Asia for a while!

The whose waiting in the wings line is the same one levelled at new labour where the press were adamant that once the conservatives were out then old labour would return to bankrupt the country again.

The result was that such was the result but the reasoning was plain old economic incompetence rather than any return to 70's style socialist policies.

UKIP are a young party still finding their feet but their leaders ability to do a Paxman to other party leaders set him aside and I think that he's the best thing to happen to British politics since Margaret.

Yep, I know that we're not going to agree on that one and she's the political equivalent of Marmite. However, no matter whether you love her or loath her, just compare her to those who have followed... Major, Blair, Brown (who was never elected as primeminister) and Cameron....

Having one half Asian child and one half black both of whom (and one of their mothers) I love dearly I think that I can safely say that I would not in any way ever condone racism but to date I've seen no evidence of such from UKIP.

That really has been one of the problems in the UK in that too many have assumed that pride in our national identity is in some way confused as racism.

They who shall not be named may be likened to Mosleys black shirts but I think that it is grossly unfair to tarnish UKIP with the same brush.

However, if people keep assuming that they are a racist organisation then those that are will be attracted to them and they would end up becoming what they are being acused of... As happened with the German Socialist Workers Party... Admittedly that out with the old in with the new happened in a somewhat dramatic way on June 30th 1934 which is something that I could not see happening in the UK.

Mmmm.... Think that I might watch V for Vendetta late tonight as thats exactly what happens to the UK isn't it.... Idea's are bulletproof, great line.

Oops, even when I don't have time for a proper debate I still go off on one. lol

talk later,

Shaun.

p.s. I'm pretty sure that it is a different Merkel quote that mine comes from.