ICB or IAB - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

Eilef · Senior Member

ICB or IAB

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

the difference is the middle letter, lol.

Hi Eilef,

welcome to the forum.

neither of them is particularly well recognised beyond the people who have them or the people who are selling them.

That said, their main purpose is not to impress others (at least I hope that its not) but rather to ensure that those using them have similar levels of skill before being alowed to practice. Think of them as an internal level of benchmarking that gives you a level of approval for what you are about to attempt to achieve.

They also offer networking opportunities, advice and cover for Money Laundering (which can be obtained from HMRC if not from a professional body).

IAB carries more direct (#1) exemptions from the exams of other professional bodies but I think thats more down to ICB being the new kid on the block rather than any major difference in the quality of the knowledge base. You find that a lot in this industry where exemptions are out of step with each other.

Of course, your intention may be for the qualification to be an end in itself rather than a stepping stone which makes the previous point mute.

Before saying what is best for you to do (which is unique to yourself and which may not be either of those options) please tell us a little more about yourself. What your history in this field is (or whether you come from a different field), what your aspirations are, Whats your timeframe to get to where you want to be is, etc.

I'm not available much today but will pick this up the discussion again this evening when hopefully one or two others will also have contributed.

Talk soon,

Shaun.

#1 by direct I mean recognition of the qualification. Some bodies such as AAT have skills tests which test what you know rather than place reliance on the bits of paper that you hold and in such instance I do not feel that you will see any major variance between the result of those holding IAB and ICB qualification.

Eilef · Senior Member

the difference is the middle letter, lol.

made me chuckle .....

thanks for the reply Shamus,

i am looking at getting a bookkeeping qualification, with the aim of being self employed although with other options I may go work for a company. I have run my own company before and done the accounts, I also currently do a friends but do not charge as I'm not qualified.

i have been enquiring into the courses and spoken to Brian from Ideal Schools who offer ICB qualification, but then had a 45 minute chat with a guy from Home Learning college who said IAB is more recognised qualification and that if you have IAB you will get a job easier as it's more recogin send, it also has better benefits like the Money Laundering you do not have to register with HMRC as it's automatic.

Not knowing much about this field I wanted advice

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Just on my way out at the min Eilef (taking my son to see the new planet of the Apes movie in 3d smile ) but even from a quick read I can see that you should be looking at AAT (its the bare minimum to even have a chance at employment). Just do a search for the keywords IAB or ICB on the reed website and then repeat the search using AAT and you will see what I mean.

I'll fill in more detail as to my reasoning this evening but in the meanwhile have a look at the AAT courses on the Premier Training and Eagle Education sites.

talk soon,

kind regards,

Shaun.

David Ballantyne · Senior Member

You got to it before me Shaun!

Eilef, if you search this forum you will find several enthusiastic discussions on the marketability of IAB, ICB and AAT in the employment market.

The reality is, that of the three, employers ask for AAT far more often than the other two. As Shaun has stated, do separate searches for each set of initials on the Reed Employment website for your locality. This will illustrate the difference.

The ICB/IAB qualifications are QCF level 3 qualifications, AAT is a level 4 qualification.

I believe that with the full AAT qualification you can gain full membership of IAB/ICB should you wish to do so. Others on this forum may confirm or disprove that. From my own inquiries to the Institute of Financial Accountants it would appear that they are prepared to grant membership to AAT members. IFA is a QCF level 5 qualification.

Hope that helps,

David.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi David,

I don't think that ICB pursued QCF recognition. I recall a discussion on here between James (ICB) and Nick (Premier) where James gave the reasoning for not pursueing academic recognition and whilst I cannot remember which post it was in off the top of my head the reasoning that James gave sounded very credible and if one is not interested in employment then I would not let QCF alone sway the decision as to whether to go IAB or ICB.

Its an interesting point about exemptions. For example, completed AAT will only get you exemptions from the first 3-4 ACCA papers but you basically have to pass the first nine ACCA to go straight to DipFA with the IFA. But, as you say, you could go straight from AAT to IFA.

There are loads of those anomalies including a few where you can get full exemptions via a two step move where you could have got no exemptions if you had gone straight to where you wanted to end up!

All makes me think that the exemptions are nothing at all to do with the quality of qualifications but more to do with the bargaining powers / size of chips on shoulders of the various professional bodies.

I loved the use of the term "enthusiastic". lol. Some of the conversations on here that have trodden that path have involved trenches and heavy artillery.

all the best,

Shaun.

David Ballantyne · Senior Member

Shamus wrote:
Hi David,

I don't think that ICB pursued QCF recognition. I recall a discussion on here between James (ICB) and Nick (Premier) where James gave the reasoning for not pursueing academic recognition and whilst I cannot remember which post it was in off the top of my head the reasoning that James gave sounded very credible and if one is not interested in employment then I would not let QCF alone sway the decision as to whether to go IAB or ICB.
Yes, you are right, that was one of our "enthusiastic" discussions on this forum. One of the trainers did say that ICB had chosen not to pursue QCF recognition. I just thought I would keep it simple for the OP. My personal impression from a very brief scan of the ICB qualification is it seems to offer the same level of training as IAB.

Its an interesting point about exemptions. For example, completed AAT will only get you exemptions from the first 3-4 ACCA papers but you basically have to pass the first nine ACCA to go straight to DipFA with the IFA. But, as you say, you could go straight from AAT to IFA.

There are loads of those anomalies including a few where you can get full exemptions via a two step move where you could have got no exemptions if you had gone straight to where you wanted to end up!
All makes me think that the exemptions are nothing at all to do with the quality of qualifications but more to do with the bargaining powers / size of chips on shoulders of the various professional bodies. I think it's a bit of both with the emphasis on bargaining powers and chips.
I loved the use of the term "enthusiastic". lol. Some of the conversations on here that have trodden that path have involved trenches and heavy artillery. Just shows how genuinely passionate we all are!

all the best,

Shaun.

Best regards,

David.

Mike Foster · Newbie

Dear Eilef,
Some interesting thoughts provided. I agree it depends on the role you desire in the future and how links with the qualifications you are looking to obtain.

Can I just add that you may need to verify what certain training providers are commenting. Some organisations will tell you that the qualification / body they offer is more recognised when simply they do not offer the other and not in their interest to give a balanced view of the profession.

Both ICB and IAB offer the money laundering support you mention.
regards
Mike

Eilef · Senior Member

Thanks mike.

Ok I have been told by a training provider that the IAB is better as the quailifaction is more recognised than that of the ICB and that if I go into employed work I would have more chance with the IAB qualification than an ICB one.

I was trying to ask the forum by not implying anything as I know those who offer ICB will say they are better and vice versa

If I'm honest I really don't know the difference.

My long term goal is to be self employed book keeper but I also want the opition of going employed as well.

Cheers
Eilef

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Eilef wrote:
Thanks mike.

Ok I have been told by a training provider that the IAB is better as the quailifaction is more recognised than that of the ICB and that if I go into employed work I would have more chance with the IAB qualification than an ICB one.
As stated by Mike, consider what the person advising you is selling! (nice point Mike and welcome to the forum).
That said, someone like Nick (Premier) or Sonya (Eagle) who contribute on here seldom try to sell anyone anything and are just up with the site ethos of trying to improve the industry as a whole.
Personal belief is that the best way to sell anyone anything is by letting the person have the epiphany that they want to use your services rather than adopting any hard sell which invariably makes potential customers back away.

I was trying to ask the forum by not implying anything as I know those who offer ICB will say they are better and vice versa

If I'm honest I really don't know the difference.

My long term goal is to be self employed book keeper but I also want the opition of going employed as well.

Cheers
Eilef

Have you looked at AAT with the above companies yet?

The price for an entry level accountancy qualification will be around the same as you have been quoted for IAB.

IAB can be achieved faster than AAT but this is not a race, its knowledge acquisition and if AAT opens the right doors for you there is no reason that you should not be able to progress from there to one of the accountancy qualifications further up the tree.

When people ask this question (which happens quite a lot) I cannot help thinking of someone looking at two bicycles and spending a long time trying to decide whether to have it in red or blue where for their requirements they actually need to be looking at cars.

kind regards,

Shaun.

figureit · Veteran Member

Hi Eilef,
I am currently studying IAB and I love it, I too am hoping to take the self employed route. Maybe it depends how quickly you would like to become self employed I think you can become self employed faster with IAB than AAT, I am finding that I am learning so much and the qualifications are very thorough with exams and assignments to complete to pass. I would recommend IAB to anyone, but it is personal choice. Another provider to look at is Karen Groves at Groves training services, I think she was on the board of IAB, take a look at her site.
Good luck.

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

The good thing about this forum is that you gain lots of useful advice from members of the different awarding bodies. The important thing Eilef is not to get to the information overload leaving you even more confused than you were when you posted your original question? All of the awarding bodies have a website and all should state their rules on running a Bookkeeping Practice. I would suggest looking at all of the websites and seeing the pro's and con's of each body, for example how does a body promote the Bookkeeping profession and once a member what are the benefits to you?

I do know you are feeling confused at the moment and with luck the advice you have been given above will give you some food for thought and I am sure you will find the right career path for you.

All the best.
Dave

Training Link

vimes · Newbie

Hi,

Sorry to disturb (I absently minded clicked submit instead oof preview when my son came in the room!). My query is basically the same as Eilif but I am not sure what is best short, medium to long term.

I am fairly aged (white haired) woman who is fairly well educated (law degree, postgrad, BCS Business Analysis Prince 2 etc, (CEMAP 1&2 & FPC never practised just required by a past employer) and theoretically employable but the fact is I am not.

I have been struggling to find employment after a a year off for major surgery.

I am confused by the plethora of options out there for book keeping/accountancy.

I need to earn money to keep my home so I was thinking about self employment as a book keeper so I can start earning in say 6 weeks? Is this possible via one of the providers?

I would also like to progressively upgrade in qualifications so would have option of rejoining employment at an intermediate level or extending services in the future to try and raise my income and help me generate a pension for my old age (17yrs to state pension)

I do not have a pot of money - some -but I have time to apply myself. Please can you advise because I am not sure whether to do the AAT/CFAB, IAB or ICB to meet my current and future aspirations.

Thanks in anticipation

-- Edited by vimes on Monday 28th of July 2014 02:24:51 PM

-- Edited by vimes on Monday 28th of July 2014 02:28:10 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Patricia,

I think really that this deserves its own thread rather than diluting this one as it touches upon the very real issue of ageism in the workplace.

you are hitting the cunundrum of many in that you are infinitely employable with a great skillset but are possibly meeting the short sighted view of some employers about how many years work that they can get from you and can an old dog be taught new tricks. The fact that the younger generation spends on average 3 years in a role and the evidence suggests that our generation are the ones who grew up with constant technological change.

Sometimes I really think that twenty somethings in positions of authority have us and our grandparents mixed up.

You are however younger than me (taken from your years to state retirement) so it may not be age that is the main issue but rather that one year gap in your CV that is making potential employers back away.

Could you start a business in six weeks.... A better way to ask that question would be what would be the minimum level of experience where you would trust someone to look after your accounts? a year? Three years? More?

The bookkeeping qualifications are geared towards creating new bookkeepers very quickly but the other thing to ask is if it is so easy to get into a business what profit could there be in it?

Consider always the comparison that the only people to make any real money from the Gold Rush were the people who sold the picks and shovels.

I'm sure that with your academic background you will have come accross the great business thinker Michael Porter of the Harvard business school. One of his works is on the five forces of business. (The threat of new entrants, the threat of alternate products, bargaining power of suppliers, bargaining power of customers, infighting amongst incumbants).

Looking at bookkeeping from the perspective of Porters five forces there is too much competition, its a profession that is too easy to enter, Suppliers (software providers) pretty much charge what they like and customers having so many bookkeepers to choose from can force down prices to well below minimum wage levels.

The better your qualifications, the more experience that you have and better your reputation the less affect the five forces have on your business... But... your post is coming from the perspective of needing to get from nothing to practice in six weeks.

Whilst I'm sure that you will find a professional body and training company to facilitate that just getting the bit of paper does not win you the client base and having so short a lead time you may find that those that you do gain you quickly lose.

For employment you should only consider AAT (about 18 months) but gaining it without relevant experience will still not be employable.

To find employment what you need to consider is studying AAT, gain a few good clients to support your studies and keep building your client base throughout your studies then find a local accountancy practice (possibly via networking clubs) where you are able to exchange your stable of clients for a job. After a few years as an accounting technician you will then be able to gain sufficient experience to restart your business at a higher level (MAAT MIP).

Getting from where you are to where you want to be will be expensive and difficult.

If you are unemployed you may be able to get help with your study costs (people like Nick, Sonya, Dave or Brian should be able to fill out more detail on any assistance that is available) which will leave more of your reserves to maintain your living expenses.

Sorry that its not a straight "this is the answer to your problems response" but hope that you find something in it that helps.

kind regards,

Shaun.

Brian McVean · Senior Member

vimes wrote:

I need to earn money to keep my home so I was thinking about self employment as a book keeper so I can start earning in say 6 weeks? Is this possible via one of the providers?

-- Edited by vimes on Monday 28th of July 2014 02:24:51 PM

-- Edited by vimes on Monday 28th of July 2014 02:28:10 PM

HI Patricia,

It's commonly stated on here and other forums that the most suitable qualification route for self-employment is ICB or IAB. I only work with ICB and they would require you to obtain their Level III bookkeeping & accounting qualifications, which lead to Associate Membership of ICB and give you the ability to get your MLR cover through them. These would cover the completion of accounts for sole traders, partnerships and non profit organisations. There are different study options where you can either self-study or go through a training provider. A provider would set you back approx £600 to get to that level but you'd be given a structured course of study and support. The 6 week goal is possible for qualification but would take a lot of hard work. Getting clients is the real tricky bit, as has been outlined in other posts and threads.

Good luck with whatever route you take.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

But to be honest Brian any professional body that thinks that they can churn out bookkeepers from a start point of no knowledge in six weeks should hang their head in shame.

Its not doing the student any good, its not doing the profession any good, the bookkeepers created that way will just reinforce the poor view of bookkeepers that many accountants have and even though the professional body may make money from the student in the short term, in the longer term it doesn't do them any good either.

I appreciate that ICB are attempting to reinvent themselves as a credible alternative to AAT but until they have suceeded in that unless someone specifically states that they are not at all interested in keeping the option of employment open then I cannot advise anyone wanting to enter this field to pursue either of the current bookkeeping qualifications.

I agree that for self employment only there is nothing wrong with either ICB or IAB... But six weeks from nothing... the level of knowledge that someone could assimilate in that time could not possibly be enough to be taken seriously.

... Or maybe I'm just thick and learn too slowly.

RobH · Expert

I agree totally Shaun, I think it is madness to let someone with 6 weeks theory think they can do the job. Yes in part they could do a decent job but the real world of bookkeeping is not the same as that from books as clients keep shocking records and expect you to be able to explain why they should incorporate and how to calculate their goodwill. Just look at how many decent and time served bookkeepers come here for advice, it just isn't that easy in the real world.

vimes · Newbie

Hi Shamus and Bryan,

Thanks for the input it is really appreciated.

You are indeed right Shamus that moving straight into bookkeeping as a profession after 6 weeks or so is not ideal even with a qualification but I am desperate. Luckily I did run my own business in the past and the law degree did include accounts, corporate, capital, income and inheritance taxation whilst budgets and accounts were at least an element of my work experience.

I stayed off esa/jsa for fear of pressure and workfare (felt very vulnerable after the op) and I have applied for every level of job going. I have been declined for junior roles, dead end jobs, senior roles and no one wants me. The one interview i had, they insisted on me filling out a health form prior to starting the interview and then proceeded to interview me on my health. I saw who they finally recruited and it was the opposite of me.

maybe i should do IAB/ICB first and then the AAT/IFA?

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Patricia,

IFA are a little like ICB in that for self employment they're fine but they're not a lot of use on a job application so better to stick with AAT.

If you are determined to go self employed then there is no reason that you could not do AAT level II which is pretty much the same as AICB then register with HMRC for MLR (£110).

Saves going with one body then swapping over to another and at all stages you would be able to say to potential employers that you are part qualified AAT although you would not be able to say anything about AAT to clients as you cannot mention any affiliation until you have a practicing certificate from them.

Once you have gained AAT level II and possibly a Sage qualification register with Reed (and other agencies) for temp roles as you may pick up a few weeks here and there that could lead to a permanent or at least semi permanent role.

There are plenty of suppliers of Sage courses including Ideal and Training Link (see Brians and Daves posts above).

This book by David Cox will be really useful in your studies :

www.amazon.co.uk/Business-Accounts-Accounting-Finance-David/dp/1905777922/ref=sr_1_1

Also this :

www.amazon.co.uk/AAT-Units-Foundation-Revision-Companion/dp/0751732281/ref=sr_1_1

and this

www.amazon.co.uk/AAT-Units-Foundation-Course-Companion/dp/0751728926/ref=sr_1_3

the books may come with the course that you take or your provider may go with a different alternative such as Osbourne or Kaplan.

Good luck no matter what route you take,

kindest regards,

Shaun.

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

Morning, thought I would stick my 2 pennies worth on the 6 week qualification issue? I was talking about this to Neil (SpamKebab) on the telephone and he openly admits this is one of the things he dislikes so much and I have to say I agree, the problem the Training Provider has is that old thing called " Supply and Demand "?

As a Training Provider we have to cater for everyone and although we would never promote the quick fix the unfortunate thing is that nowadays this is what us "The Consumer" wants.

It matters not how quickly you get through qualifications but if you have retained the information you have been studying, no point in having all the qualifications but not being able to remember what has been taught? The wants and needs of students have to be catered for and I don't know if Brian, Nick, Sonya and other provider forum representatives agree with me on this but unless we cater for these students we would soon go out of business.

It is the responsibility of any provider regardless of what governing body they represent that they provide good quality training and support, it is not the responsibility of the provider to question the motives of the quick fix student but advise of the pitfalls of learning too much too soon and this is all we can do?

I do agree with what Shaun has said but as I said above it is all about supply and demand. Right here comes the backlash.

Dave

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Shamus wrote:
But to be honest Brian any professional body that thinks that they can churn out bookkeepers from a start point of no knowledge in six weeks should hang their head in shame. You've put words into my mouth here, Shaun. My reply was specifically aimed at Patricia where she has business analysis qualifications, which I am guessing would cover some form of finance. What ICB provide is an avenue for people to pass their exams quickly if they are able to. Of course a complete beginner would find it almost impossible to get properly qualified in six weeks and I would NEVER lay this down as a guideline in those situations. To provide an example, last year we had a student who became fully qualified with ICB in just less than 4 months, covering bookkeeping, payroll, Self-Assessment and small business fianancial control. She had the time to study, was bright, enthusiastic and had dabbled in accounts in a previous work role. She is now in full swing with her practice and has a very healthy client base. It can be done!!

Its not doing the student any good, its not doing the profession any good, the bookkeepers created that way will just reinforce the poor view of bookkeepers that many accountants have and even though the professional body may make money from the student in the short term, in the longer term it doesn't do them any good either. For approx 4 years now the ICB regulations mean that their members have a full grasp of both manual & computerised principles, meaning they are very well prepared when it comes to them practising as bookkeepers. Lets not forget also that ICB offer a support service to those in practice, which is great backup for for any 'newbie'. My guess is that those who cause more harm to the profession are those that are advised to and take advantage of the loophole where you can get MLR cover directly with HMRC without proof of ability.

I appreciate that ICB are attempting to reinvent themselves as a credible alternative to AAT but until they have suceeded in that unless someone specifically states that they are not at all interested in keeping the option of employment open then I cannot advise anyone wanting to enter this field to pursue either of the current bookkeeping qualifications. As a provider I have feet in both AAT & ICB camps and both are excellent qualifications but their main objectives are different and both have their place.

I agree that for self employment only there is nothing wrong with either ICB or IAB... But six weeks from nothing... the level of knowledge that someone could assimilate in that time could not possibly be enough to be taken seriously.

... Or maybe I'm just thick and learn too slowly.

In reply to a couple of points from the last post:

AAT Level 2 is nowhere near as comprehensive as Associate Level of ICB. AICB will cover the completion of accounts for sole traders, partnerships and non profit organisations, where as AAT Level 2 stops at Trial Balance.

Why would someone who's main objective is to become self employed get qualified with a body where they cannot use their qualifications when promoting themselves as bookkeepers? It would make much more sense to promote yourself under and have the backing of a professional body, giving you a far greater chance of achieving your goal.

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Dave Campbell wrote:
Morning, thought I would stick my 2 pennies worth on the 6 week qualification issue? I was talking about this to Neil (SpamKebab) on the telephone and he openly admits this is one of the things he dislikes so much and I have to say I agree, the problem the Training Provider has is that old thing called " Supply and Demand "?

As a Training Provider we have to cater for everyone and although we would never promote the quick fix the unfortunate thing is that nowadays this is what us "The Consumer" wants.

It matters not how quickly you get through qualifications but if you have retained the information you have been studying, no point in having all the qualifications but not being able to remember what has been taught? The wants and needs of students have to be catered for and I don't know if Brian, Nick, Sonya and other provider forum representatives agree with me on this but unless we cater for these students we would soon go out of business.

It is the responsibility of any provider regardless of what governing body they represent that they provide good quality training and support, it is not the responsibility of the provider to question the motives of the quick fix student but advise of the pitfalls of learning too much too soon and this is all we can do?

I do agree with what Shaun has said but as I said above it is all about supply and demand. Right here comes the backlash.

Dave

A very good point, Dave and I do agree with you (mark down the date biggrin ). However, where a student has poor knowledge retention due to the pace of study the chances are they'll fail their centre-based exams and not gain accreditation to practice.

-- Edited by Brian McVean on Tuesday 29th of July 2014 11:38:34 AM

CharlieChav · Member

Hi Eilef,

As you seem to be looking for speed of qualification, the main difference is that IAB follows a structured timetable so that exams are sat every 6 months, ICB exams can be sat all year round making ICB much faster if you already know your stuff. To get an ICB practice license you have to pass 7 exams, 6 online and 1 at a test centre, which is possible but challenging. IAB accredit Open University course B190 Introduction to Bookkeeping and Accounts which is 3 months in duration and allows you to join as a full member (MIAB). As Shaun said if you want employment then AAT is the better option but too slow for your timescales.

Cheers

Charlie

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Brian,

of all the possible answers I'm just going with the business analysis one for now.

Business analysis means different things to different people with people from the accounting side of the fence reading it as financial analysis of a business. Others confuse the term with systems analysis and data analysis.

Reading Patricia's skillset linked to Prince 2 certification (a project management qualification) I knew the sort of business analysis that she was talking about.

Courses in business analysis vary as much as peoples perceptions of the term but the commonality is that they concentrate on strategic thinking, systems mapping, process reengineering and change management.

A business analysis course would not generally cover matters such as variance, ratio and trend analysis but rather concentrate on tools and theories such as BPMN, UML, SSADM, Lean, Agile, Six sigma, BPR, stakeholder management, etc.

All that I'm really saying here is that perhaps we read Patricias skillset differently.

I read it that she was a contract business analyst / project manager working in big business through her own limited company that she did her own bookkeeping for. A background that I can very much identify with.

Personally it took me a full year at 20+ hours per week (Open University course B680 certificate in Accounting) to get a good basis on this side of the fence (before starting ACCA study) and I feel that it would have taken much longer had I not had a transferable complimentary skillset (similar to Patricia).

Is the issue that because I come from a background where I knew something of the subject matter that I realise what I do not know where someone coming completely fresh to this has no perception that they are wandering blindfold into a maze littered with bear traps?

Rather than going into a long answer here (I know how you love those Brian, lol) I'll save some of it for my reply to supply and demand for Dave.

kind regards,

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Dave,

Fear not, no backlash. Just hopefully a good constructive debate.

Well... Supply and demand...

Now from the training providers perspective there is the issue that if one provider can offer to get someone to a practice certificate in six weeks then others need to also do the same or risk losing students. You are basically supplying what the market demands.

Where does that stop? Five weeks? Four? same week? Tomorrow?

Look at the same question from the market perspective.

When are there too many book-keepers in the market?

What demand is there for the services of so many book-keepers?

Is the demand of speed to market simply creating a lot of disappointed people whose financial reality does not match their expectations of bookkeeping as a career choice?

Are there just enough success stories to perpetuate the myth that a change in career to bookkeeping is a viable option for everyone who wants to cross train?

I will not deny that there are some great success stories and both Training Link and Ideal have excellent traiing materials for those who wish to pursue this career path.

... But, is this not in some ways similar to whilst many pay for lottery tickets there are now some very rich people... And a lot who just have lighter pockets.

I understand that the training companies fight over gaining students but if the ICB qualification is to be taken seriously in the market there has to be a deminimus lead time to get from nothing to practice (not applicable to those with experience or other relevant qualifications).

Charlie mentions that the IAB have exams every six months. Thats the same with many of the professional bodies (some are moving to three month diets but retaining the restriction that you can onlty take the same number of exams that you would have been able to take in a six month period).

I feel that something needs to be done about the unrestricted supply of bookkeepers, many of whome find that they are unemployable and those going into practice drive down business expectation of fee levels for professional services.

Change has to come from the ICB otherwise for training companies for one to do things properly and another concentrating on winning market share by offering the fastest route would be suicide for the good provider.

A good start point would be to make the study of basic taxation compulsory before people are allowed to practice.

I've mentioned that to James both on here and on the phone.

Micro clients expect their bookkeepers to be cheaper accountants. To most businesses that means compliance work and dealing with the tax office. I do not feel that many book-keepers arer prepared for that when they qualify as the emphasis is on bookkeeping rather than accountancy. Whilst one might expect that from the job description that is not the service that the market demands of bookkeepers.

Also, more emphasis needs to be placed by the ICB on ethics... How many students going into practice even know what an ettiquette letter is! or Advocacy, or the importance of matters such as Integrity, objectivity, professional competence, confidentiality, professional behaviour, professional marketing, etc.

A tax qualification combined with ethics embedded in every exam (making up at least 10% of the marks) should really slow down the time to market whilst increasing the knowledgebase and, if long held views can be shaken as they were with the IFA then that should see ICB people infinitely more employable.

Right, thats put supply and demand to rights. what next...

talk in a bit Dave,

all the best,

Shaun.

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

Hi Shaun

Some valid points made there my friend and although I agree with the majority of what you are saying as a business no matter what you are selling your success will be based on supplying what your client wants.

The age of the internet has made us as people want things yesterday, why have tomorrow what you can have today. A companies reputation is based on several things but initially the consumer will look at price, as Training Link specialise in just Sage and ICB training we are not adverse to the fact that there are 13 other providers all fighting for the same business and as such we have to market in a way we feel our competitors are not, what gives us the edge over a competitor? For me its reputation and we have all worked bloody hard as you know we have to get where we are today but we still want to get better and better, there is always room for improvement in any field of work.

All bodies have their structured syllabus and ICB, IAB AAT and the likes are no different to this, a training provider will have expected learning times to reach a certain level, because distance learning is not subjected to timetables like the classroom counterpart then students can gain their qualifications so much quicker, this is not just an ICB issue? I know AAT students who have qualified in next to no time. We the Training Provider have no control of how long a student will take to pass an exam apart from our own expected learning times, if a student wishes to gain their qualifications quicker than the norm then as a provider we have to cater for them. If you take into account I speak with 10's of 100's of people a year you can expect 90% of them looking to gain their qualifications sooner rather than later. Do you feel that Training Providers are ethically wrong for providing a service the customer wants?

Do you feel that the IAB loses potential members because their exam procedures appear outdated? For me it is not a matter of how quickly someone passes their exams but how that person conducts themselves as a professional once qualified and if they can do the job they have been asked to do? There is no better feeling for a Training Provider than finding out our students are running a successful practice and for the likes of Training Link this is a regular thing that we hear and therefore we feel we are providing the service our customers want and that there are success stories out there, however there is one thing I have noticed, the ones who do well are the ones who get themselves out there by networking and going above and beyond what would be expected to be the norm. If anyone thinks that by doing any qualifications regardless of it being IAB, ICB, AAT, Cima, ACCA and on and on that they are certain to gain clients and run a successful practice then they will be in for a rude awakening, of course there are exceptions to the rule but it is never solely about passing qualifications. Now here are all my qualifications and a CV that shows I am hard working and loyal, honest etc, but I still have to sell myself.

We could have 10 million qualified Bookkeepers in the UK but that does not mean 10 million will do the job well? It is about individuality as much as it is qualification attained. And as much as I agree with the majority of what you have posted for me the ICB still do more to market the profession of Bookkeeping than all the other bodies put together, in fact I have christened Garry and June Carter as the Jehovah's Witnesses of the Bookkeeping world lol

All the best Shaun, hope all is going well with you and be in touch soon

Dave

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

Brian McVean wrote:
Dave Campbell wrote:
Morning, thought I would stick my 2 pennies worth on the 6 week qualification issue? I was talking about this to Neil (SpamKebab) on the telephone and he openly admits this is one of the things he dislikes so much and I have to say I agree, the problem the Training Provider has is that old thing called " Supply and Demand "?

As a Training Provider we have to cater for everyone and although we would never promote the quick fix the unfortunate thing is that nowadays this is what us "The Consumer" wants.

It matters not how quickly you get through qualifications but if you have retained the information you have been studying, no point in having all the qualifications but not being able to remember what has been taught? The wants and needs of students have to be catered for and I don't know if Brian, Nick, Sonya and other provider forum representatives agree with me on this but unless we cater for these students we would soon go out of business.

It is the responsibility of any provider regardless of what governing body they represent that they provide good quality training and support, it is not the responsibility of the provider to question the motives of the quick fix student but advise of the pitfalls of learning too much too soon and this is all we can do?

I do agree with what Shaun has said but as I said above it is all about supply and demand. Right here comes the backlash.

Dave
A very good point, Dave and I do agree with you (mark down the date ). However, where a student has poor knowledge retention due to the pace of study the chances are they'll fail their centre-based exams and not gain accreditation to practice.

Lol Brian that's twice in 7 years, we should start sending certificates to each other every time we agree, they are more rare and harder to get than a Luca lol

-- Edited by Brian McVean on Tuesday 29th of July 2014 11:38:34 AM

-- Edited by Dave Campbell on Tuesday 29th of July 2014 02:44:39 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Dave Campbell wrote:

Lol Brian that's twice in 7 years, we should start sending certificates to each other every time we agree, they are more rare and harder to get than a Luca lol

I think that I was the catalyst on the last occassion as well... Do you think that I should add giving training companies a common enemy to the list of services that I provide! lol, I know that you both love me really.

Also, it is my belief that there is no viable profession of bookkeeping (on a self employed basis) in isolation, it's simply the foundation level of accountancy... And ICB and IAB can call themselves bookkeeping qualifications but as we've chatted about before, they're not bookkeeping qualifications as they go past trial balance.

As for the largest body.... ICB have a tiny fraction of the numbers of even the ACCA in isolation and until an ACCA student has their letters the services that they are allowed to perform on a self employed basis are those of a bookkeeper (Bookkeeping to trial balance, VAT and Payroll).

Yes, not all ACCA students are working as bookkeeepers but sad as it is to say neither are many ICB people.

I recollect that Brian argued before that ICB was bookkeeping but the argument seemed to rest on the logic that they were because they had always called themselves bookkeepers where my arguement was based on the premise that you are what you do, not what you call yourself (similar to the business analyst discussion above).

You make a sound arguement Dave but it ignores that there are two supply and demand forces at work. One the supply and demand of training companies and those using their services and the other the supply and demand of bookkeepers in practice and their potential client base.

I do not feel that the two can be considered in isolation but from the training companies perspective they cannot afford to view the bigger picture.

Ultimately without intervention a satursated market will resolve itself as it did when Pitmans were flooding the market with bookkeepers 30+ years ago (Whats the saying, those who don't learn from history are destined to repeat it).

As trainers in finance I'm sure that you have come across the product life cycle. I'm not going to say much about it here just that it might be worth pondering where on the life cycle your existing porfolio of courses lies and looking at R&D to bring more alternatives on line.

ACCA people are required to have no more than 15% of their client base from one source to prevent any issue over dependancy which could affect objectivity. I do not think that it would be amiss for training companies that intend to be around for the long term to adopt a similar policy.

Goodness knows, even within accounting there are enough different options in order to easily achieve that dilution of risk exposure.

Anyway, sure that you all have teams of business advisors, risk managers and accountants telling you this stuff so I'll leave it to those who get paid to say this stuff rather than sitting here trying to fix and future proof everyone that I still want to see contributing here ten years from now.

kindest regards to both of you,

Shaun.

figureit · Veteran Member

Sorry to interrupt your very interesting debate guys, but had to add that IAB do exams on demand as well so not just twice a year anymore, we also have had to study ethics confidentiality etc. As for learning enough to qualify in 6 weeks, I wish!! I study approximately 20 hrs a week and takes longer than that to get one level passed in my experience anyway, I think it might depend if you just do computerised and not the manual it may be a lot quicker, but if you don't do the manual you will not really understand it, as for me I would not start to do someones bookkeeping before I am sure I know what I am doing I would not want to mess up someones books what would be the point in that! Funny thing is everytime I learn a bit more I realise just how much more there is to learn and cant wait to get to the stage where I feel I have learnt enough to get started but I think the learning will still carry on as it is very addictive lol. :)

David Ballantyne · Senior Member

FAO Vimes:

One possible option is the AAT Introductory Award in Bookkeeping, for info go to:

https://www.aat.org.uk/qualifications/bookkeeping-and-computerised-accounting/introductory-award-bookkeeping

Unfortunately, the award is not available until 1 September 2014, but they do quote 6 to 12 weeks to complete.

David.

NickCraggs · Guru

Hi All

There is also the AAT level 2 certificate in bookkeeping which has been doing really well for a year now. I normally suggest this as a good entry point.

There is also the AAT level 3 certificate in bookkeeping which is coming in on the 1st of September. This is aimed at directly taking on the ICB and IAB as the AAT are aware that not everyone wants to cover management accounting.

All the best

Nick

Eilef · Senior Member

I think a lot has to do with how you learn.

Everyone has a learning style and if home study fits that learning style then you will learn much faster and retain that information.

I recently did an introduction to bookkeeping course and completed the whole course in just 30 mins and not the 10-12 hours as the suggested learning time was.

Yes it helps I have worked in large finance driven company's who are so focused on making money and reducing cost they forget what they are about, and I have also run my own business.

When my ICB Level II arrives on Wednesday will six weeks be achievable ? I would say yes easily as the level is very easy provided I invest the time in them six weeks wisely.

However with that said I might come across something I have not dabbled with before and will have to spend longer looking at it, who knows.

I have set no time scale to qualify if it takes me 12 months then so be it, the only thing I have set here is that I will qualify....

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Eilef,

but your case is different. You are saying that you are trying to get letters for something that you already partially know rather than the cases that we have been chatting about in this thread where some people are told that they can go from no knowledge to practice is six weeks.

I'm sure that you will sail through the ICB tests.

I had an ICB practice certificate for a while. To get it as at the time ICB didn't recognise ACCA (#1) I did the level I and II.

To study I bought a mock exam for each of them. Whilst I waited for that to come through the post I did the AAT revision kit for units 1-4 (I've not done AAT but AAT is just watered down ACCA and units 1-4 are good for quick revision of basic bookkeeping).

Took two days (actually two afternoons) to do the revision kit end to end. And an hour each for the mock papers then I got 99% and 98% respectively in the real papers when they arrived.

Thats not trying to say "didn't I do well" thats trying to say that if you come to the table with other knowledge and experience then its a completely different situation to someone learning this from scratch (If you read my above posts I am always careful to emphasise six weeks from nothing rather than six weeks full stop).

Its also why I've argued on here for so long against the ICB's mantra that accountants cannot do bookkeeping.

kind regards,

Shaun.

#1 I know! totally unbelievable....Anyway, thats now changed slightly and they are even now courting accountancy students by advertising in PQ magazine

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

Hi Eilef and Shaun

Hope your both enjoying the weekend. Eilef I was pleased that you decided to sign up with Training Link are hope you will post your findings on your training experiences with all on the forum. Good luck with your studies.

Shaun the ICB conference is just around the corner and you have an open invitation from me to attend, my shout. :)

All the best both
Dave

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Dave,

yep, been a good one thanks matey.

We've just finished off watching breaking bad end to end (36 hours over a little over a week) and I'm really thinking that series should be on the accounting bodies list of study materials for business strategy... Well, maybe without the killing everyone that opposes you bit.

Have you seen it? First TV series that I can think of where a bookkeeper (not an accountant, a bookkeeper!) has a starring role.

The series covers everything, manufacturing, quality control, distribution, money laundering, fixed vs variable costs, bookkeeping, profit ratio's, exporting, expansion by acquisition, reinvestment decisions, supply and demand, make or buy decisions, wastage, etc, etc.

If you've not seen the series I highly recomend it.

kind as your offer is Dave I fear that me stepping into an ICB gathering is the equivalent of a witch stepping over the theshold of a church. Anyway, Thankyou anyway though.

Right, I should be building a spreadsheet.

talk soon matey,

all the best,

Shaun.

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

Hi Shaun

No not seen it but will make a point of seeing it, just been told he became a drug dealer to look after his family? Sounds really good. I have just finished watching ITV and the memoirs of those who served in world war 1, I have to say anything to do with the war both moves and fascinates me, my great granddad was killed in Ypres Belgium and we found his war grave in a Gateshead cemetery. I don't think people realise just how much we owe these hero's?

As for you not being welcome at the conference, I know for a fact James would be delighted to see you as would I. I would also imagine Brian from Ideal would welcome you as well, the ICB really are like a big family where all are welcome, even you Shaun lol.

Just done a search of that programme and there are 5 seasons from 2008 to 2013 and the main star used to be the Dad in Malcom in the Middle. So did you buy the box set?

Speak soon my friend, you will have to PM me when you get 5 mins and let me know how Peter is doing? Bet he is a chip off the old block?

Take care mate
Dave

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Dave,

wish that I had bought the box set. Would have been cheaper. I really didn't expect to end up watching the whole 36 hours basically back to back.

There are actually six seasons as they cut season five into two seasons "All hail the king" and "Remember my name".

Basic premise is that Walter White is a mild mannered Chemistry teacher. The series opens with his 50th birthday breakfast and shortly after he's diagnosed with cancer. Whilst on the face of it everything that he's doing is to support his family when he's gone, the reality is that he doesn't really come alive until he thinks that he's dieing.

We bought the first three series for £20 as a box set but rapidly bought the other three as they don't feel like seperate series but just one joined up story.

On the first world war I grew up in a little village in Lincolnshire (Irby in the Marsh). Just basically a collection of farms, farm cottages, a few bungalows and a Church. I even had to travel several miles by taxi to school. Thats how small the place was.

Most of the people who lived there had been there for generations. One thing that always stood out to me was there was a little old lady in the village, Mrs Padley. She was the only person of that name there.

In the Church there was a huge plaque honouring the first world war fallen and the list of Padleys lost seemed larger than the 1960's population of the village. She must have basically lost everyone.

Puts the actual losses into context a bit when you realise that whole communities in England were basically wiped out together in that war.

All the best matey,

talk soon,

Shaun.

ICBUK · Guru

Hi all,

Hope you're all well.

Shaun of course you are welcome at the bookkeepers summit, everyone is. Record number of tickets sold already but we will get you a place (shameless plug biggrin - www.bookkeepers.org.uk/About-Us/Bookkeepers-Summit).

Might be a good idea for you to meet some ICB members and talk to the ICB direct to get a feel for their more recent passion/direction/goals etc..

The '6 weeks from nothing' phrase keeps coming up on this post, it is new I don't think I have heard you mention it before Shaun, where is it from?

However, distance learning is done in hours, so if you have nothing else to do (no job or kids) and can spend all day studying then it is probably possible, although I definitely wouldn't recommend it.

AAT and ICB Level 2 (new syllabus) is around 130-150 hours (from memory) so that's 3 - 3.5 hours per day of study.

Don't forget that classroom study that takes a year doesn't mean you spend a whole year studying, just it is spread out, usually 4 hours per week plus some reading.

However, in conclusion, although it is possible if you really put the hours in and do nothing else but study, it isn't something I (or ICB) would suggest is normal at all.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi James,

Been a while since we heard from you. Hope you are well.

The six weeks debate came from Vimes above (Mon Jul 28 14:11 2014) who was looking to get from nothing to practice in the shortest possible time. Quite understandable that someone needs to have an income but what is the shortest period where one can learn enough to such a level that the acquired skillset is sellable.

Brian picked that up saying that it was possible to achieve in the suggested timeframe which fell into a debate (fear not, it was quite a subdued and mutually respectful one) where the discussion moved onto the fact that if one training provider can promise something then the others have to match it or risk losing clients.

I would have had no issue with someone asking whether they could pass a bookkeeping exam from no knowledge within that time frame but the question was quite specifically aimed at how long from nothing to practice and that lead time is too short for what the market actually demands of a bookkeeper.

The above said, if the poster had experience or came to the table with other relevant qualifications then thats a whole different story.

To put this in context, there's a franchise operator in this sector (no names) who promises to get people from nothing to a business in 13 weeks of intensive training. Over on Aweb thats often barracked as being an insufficient lead time.

The issue is that those only just coming into this do not realise how much they do not know.

I think that despite many seeing it as possible we who have peaked behind the veil and seen that there be dragons here are all of a like mind that it would not be advisable and that ill equiped new bookkeepers could potentially damage the perception of the qualification.

Talk later,

Shaun.

Rhianrach · Expert

Shamus wrote:

If you've not seen the series I highly recomend it.

all the best,

Shaun.

I've just bought seasons 1-6 on your recommendation, I hope you are right or I will have to hunt you down biggrin

ICBUK · Guru

Hi Shaun,

All good here thanks.

Ah I see, not quite from nothing though: "I did run my own business in the past and the law degree did include accounts, corporate, capital, income and inheritance taxation whilst budgets and accounts were at least an element of my work experience."

Although yeah does seem quite quick.

Not sure which franchise you are referring to but yeah I have to agree. They take a large sum up front so obviously the franchisee wants to be earning asap. ICB has probably spoken to every bookkeeping franchise out there and they don't really fit with ICB's standards. Of course sometimes they are not cut out for bookkeeping and so cannot pass the exams, it then becomes a little awkward.

It's a valid point you make regarding training providers, but I'm sure ICB would step in if ever any of its providers started a 'speed competition'.

At the end of the day ICB's bread and butter is membership, not qualifications, and with the support they give they would be shooting themselves in the foot if they let anyone in without proper training as they would be on the phone all day to technical support costing a fortune :)

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Rhianrach wrote:
Shamus wrote:

If you've not seen the series I highly recomend it.

all the best,

Shaun.

I've just bought seasons 1-6 on your recommendation, I hope you are right or I will have to hunt you down

I'm alright, I've got Saul Goodman on speed dial (You'll get that after you've watched it).

Series 1-3 are really good but it steps up a gear in season 4.

There are definietely some scenes through the series that will leave you open mouthed, most of the time you find yourself trying to second guess the business strategy, and some things you just won't see coming at all.

Well, thats you lost to the world for 36 hours Steve.

Have fun.

Rhianrach · Expert

47 hours it claims on the box, however I bought it for my birthday off the kids so I won't see it for another 12 days cry

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

I think that I spent worryingly longer lost in the series than I had realised.

I've just added it up and the run times 44 hrs and 7 mins.

Actual run times are :

Season 1 : 346 mins (5 hrs 46 mins)
Season 2 : 585 mins (9 hrs 45 mins)
Season 3 : 589 mins (9 hrs 49 mins)
Season 4 : 378 mins (6 hrs 18 mins)
Season 5 : 359 mins (5 hrs 59 mins)
Season 6 : 390 mins (6 hrs 30 mins)

Is this birthday a big one Steve?

I've just had my 53rd (31st July) and this one seemed a much bigger deal to me than my 50th. Probably because for the first time in years I'm not burried up to my neck in study materials so more time to think.

Not that I'm off to set up a meth lab as a mid life crisis or anything.

And on that note, clients to go and harrass.

Laters.

Rhianrach · Expert

No biggy birthday it's my 42nd but I'm such a fantastic dad I felt it would be good for my kids to spend a bit more of my money on me, it was either the box set or a Cyberdine Systems hoodie which would have been taking geek to a whole new level wink

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

Shamus wrote:
I think that I spent worryingly longer lost in the series than I had realised.

I've just added it up and the run times 44 hrs and 7 mins.

Actual run times are :

Season 1 : 346 mins (5 hrs 46 mins)
Season 2 : 585 mins (9 hrs 45 mins)
Season 3 : 589 mins (9 hrs 49 mins)
Season 4 : 378 mins (6 hrs 18 mins)
Season 5 : 359 mins (5 hrs 59 mins)
Season 6 : 390 mins (6 hrs 30 mins)

Is this birthday a big one Steve?

I've just had my 53rd (31st July) and this one seemed a much bigger deal to me than my 50th. Probably because for the first time in years I'm not burried up to my neck in study materials so more time to think.

Not that I'm off to set up a meth lab as a mid life crisis or anything.

And on that note, clients to go and harrass.

Laters.

You have been watching far too much breaking bad lol, a belated happy Birthday to both Shaun and Steve

Dave

Rhianrach · Expert

Thanks Dave :)

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

Shamus wrote:
Hi Dave,

wish that I had bought the box set. Would have been cheaper. I really didn't expect to end up watching the whole 36 hours basically back to back.

There are actually six seasons as they cut season five into two seasons "All hail the king" and "Remember my name".

Basic premise is that Walter White is a mild mannered Chemistry teacher. The series opens with his 50th birthday breakfast and shortly after he's diagnosed with cancer. Whilst on the face of it everything that he's doing is to support his family when he's gone, the reality is that he doesn't really come alive until he thinks that he's dieing.

We bought the first three series for £20 as a box set but rapidly bought the other three as they don't feel like seperate series but just one joined up story.

On the first world war I grew up in a little village in Lincolnshire (Irby in the Marsh). Just basically a collection of farms, farm cottages, a few bungalows and a Church. I even had to travel several miles by taxi to school. Thats how small the place was.

Most of the people who lived there had been there for generations. One thing that always stood out to me was there was a little old lady in the village, Mrs Padley. She was the only person of that name there.

In the Church there was a huge plaque honouring the first world war fallen and the list of Padleys lost seemed larger than the 1960's population of the village. She must have basically lost everyone.

Puts the actual losses into context a bit when you realise that whole communities in England were basically wiped out together in that war.

All the best matey,

talk soon,

Shaun.

Hi Shaun

Right you have convinced me, just signed up to Netflix and my viewing starts now, looking forward to the baggy eyes, sorry I meant baggier

Dave

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

You'll enjoy it Dave.

I'm sure that like me there will be certain things about it that you can relate to.

Like Game of thrones its one of those series where you go through the "Ok, just one more episode THEN I'll go to bed".

Game of thrones season 4 (on Blinkbox) actually ended up with no sleep and we watched it end to end basically in a single sitting with just toilet and gather more snacks breaks.

p.s. many thanks for the Birthday wishes :)

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

OMG Shaun, like it we love it, we managed the first 4 episodes last night and your right it leaves you wanting more, is his brother in law going to find out what he is doing, the fact there were so many season means that there are going to be loads of twists and turns and if he has not checked the broken plate in the bin he would be dead now, game of thrones is on Netflix as well so going to give that a go afterwards, cheers for the heads up

Dave