I have a client who has a window cleaning round- he also is into motor biking
He has put receipts in for thermal leggings etc - now I know he probably wears them for both working and biking- general opinion- would you split the cost 50/50 or disallow completely ?
You do like awkward questions!
This might sound silly but does he still clean windows between November and March - I know window cleaners who are very much fair weather people!
If he is working all year then there is a case for 50/50.
yes he does- I am of the opinion 50/50 too - the other dilemma is the gloves he is claiming for- again I know he would probably wear them for work but its difficult as I know his hobby! If I didnt know I would probably claim the whole amount!!!
Gloves are harder - the gloves for window cleaning and the gloves for biking are different. It's not just a question of grip but of the Teflon in the back of the hand to protect the biker - you may have to see the gloves to work out if they are allowable.
I am a newbie ! just wondered, is it down to us to disallow his expenditure and make all sorts of conjectures, on what he might and might not do with his thermals/gortex. What if he has a dog and uses them to walk the dog in the rain - Is the dog, a guard dog so a business expense ?
While some leeway is allowed and if we are told to add items regardless of our perceived view we must, generally bookkeepers are employed as much to tell the client what they can and can't do, as to formalise the books.
This is why most bookkeepers have a clause in their letter of engagement stating that the information recorded is that which has been supplied by the the client and it's relevance is their responsibility.
Being a biker, where practical, I would use the bike. I keep a log of business use, with an opening mileage each month, and deduct business use from opening mileage for private use
It is on my books as Plant & Machinery (as per HMRC definition), I have claimed back the VAT on the whole cost (as per HMRC VAT rules), and adjust for private use, using Lenartz accounting.
I class the clothing as PPE, as it is armoured, this includes the gloves (they are specifically for motorcycling, and are armoured too) but again I adjust for private usage based on the mileage (there's no VAT on crash helmets though)
I claim actual vehicle costs because the total mileage is quite low, and the allowance rate for a motorcycle is only 24p per mile, which if you consider the bike cost me more than my car, the insurance and tax are more than my car, the fuel consumption is the same, and tyres and brakes wear out four times faster (and cost four times as much!!) than a cars, the allowance is out of date.
As far as I am aware, there is no tax law that says you have to use a car for business trips, and there is a statement, in one of the BIM manuals that states that just because a tax payer gets pleasure from a business activity, it does not preclude it from being a claimable expense. from memory, I think this was to do with foreign business travel but the point is the same.
I also agree with Trevor, that I am not the guardian of my clients morals. As a general rule, I will ask the necessary questions for confirmation, and if I get a plausible answer I will accept it. If it is grey area, I will explain the possible consequences. If it not acceptable I will not claim it.
Bill he doesn't use the bike for business- he has a car and trailer as it is a window cleaning business, the point was that I know he also has motorbiking as a hobby and therefore would probably be using the clothing for both
Trevor- another client last week- in the beauty salon trade- claiming for underwear, Lipsy £175 dresses and mens clothing and every meal out she had had this tax year- I didnt even question her as to whether it was allowable- I just disallowed it- some things are quite blatant - others such as this are a grey area to be challenged
Clients are always going to tell you its for business so they can pay less tax!
I think we are in fact all singing from the same sheet - although in different keys!
No-one said the chap can't use his bike - the question was were his bike gloves allowable as an expense of a window cleaning business. If those gloves are being used by the business and were bought because of the business and would not otherwise have been bought, then the answer is easy, but the chap is known to be a hobbyist biker - would you, as a biker, ruin your expensive, armoured gloves by getting them thoroughly soaked on a daily basis while cleaning windows? Let's not be silly here! There are better alternatives.
Now should this lad go to his clients on his bike, borrow a ladder and a bucket and work in that manner you might well expect to see some bike costs crop up - if however he has a van and one of these lovely ladder less pure water cleaning systems you wouldn't. You would however expect loads of paperwork associated with the van and its maintenance, the cost of the water filtration and probably spray nozzles, heads and new hose from time to time. One of the most simple checks any one can make is 'is the expense appropriate to the business'.
Biker gloves for a window cleaner are probably not.
I just explain to them that it isnt an allowable expense- mostly it is uniform or entertainment they try to claim so I just show them the HMRC guidelines - they usually accept my decision when I tell them they are at risk of getting caught if they wish to claim them
I was looking at it from a means of transport point of view (although I hadn't conceived how he would carry his ladder??) but he may use the bike for business use for other purposes though (going to the bank for example), which is where I saw the gloves being used. If you are using a bike as a means of transport, then al You are right, no way would I clean windows wearing my bike gloves, a pair of Marigolds will do :)
Trevor, some may put a strong argument forward but if it is not claimable, it's not claimable. If it is obvious that it should not be entered on the accounts I don't but I will take each item on a case by case basis. Worst case scenario, if the client is asking you to do something illegal, you walk away, and keep you professional integrity.
Hi Sharon,
Have you asked him if he wears the thermals for his hobby. My initial thoughts would be that it is very plausible that he purchases thermals for his work and claim the lot because it wouldn't cross my mind he would use them for anything else and I doubt it really is a whole lot of money. From my point of view if he says they are work only then I'd claim 100%. The gloves I would treat the same unless, like Bill's gloves, they are the real bike specific protective types which I doubt would be suitable for cleaning windows.
I haven't asked him to be honest but I am sure he would wear them for his hobby as he goes out in all terrains scrambling as well as normal biking in all weathers, as you say it isn't a lot of money but feel happier claiming 50%
The gloves I have decided to disregard altogether because as Bill said they are specific so wouldn't be practical for working in
thanks everyone for your opinions- helped me make my decisions
Now I just have another issue as to whether to consider reporting him on MLR for another matter-think I need advice from my governing bodies on that one!!!
I haven't asked him to be honest but I am sure he would wear them for his hobby as he goes out in all terrains scrambling as well as normal biking in all weathers, as you say it isn't a lot of money but feel happier claiming 50%
The gloves I have decided to disregard altogether because as Bill said they are specific so wouldn't be practical for working in
Sharon,
Read this thread with some interest, as like Bill I still own motorbike(s) and saw reference to them in the thread.
Only thing I am a bit concerned about here is whether you are a motorcycle fanatic yourself?
If not (and do forgive me if you are), how could you or any bookkeeper know if the type of thermal gear (and for that matter gloves) this window cleaner has bought are even remotely suitable for motorcycle use and therefore if they have any duality of use by the window-cleaner?
Fully understand that the role entails a degree of vetting dubious expenses and advising clients that this really isn't allowed, but your personal knowledge of this guys hobby seems to taking precedence, as most bookkeepers wouldn't have a clue what the business owners hobbies were and as this guy may actually need thermal gear for his work I find the jump to "not-allowing" without even discussing with him a bit odd.
What happens if the gloves are bright orange rubberised utilitarian design and clearly not for bike riding and the thermals are heavy/thick trousers for upright use (shorter than motorcycle ones as your legs are bent)?
Surely the norm would be to raise concerns that if these are being used for private use purposes too then only part or in some cases none could be charged and to then try and agree on how they should be charged (or not)?
Ridesy I take on board your comments -I am not a motor bike enthusiast so have little knowledge of the attire but the gloves are from a motorcycle shop and specifically say motorcycling gloves,- the thermals are from Amazon so give little information so these I have allowed at 50% but to be honest the cost was under £20 so have no impact on his tax as he is well under taxable earnings
I do agree that we should question some of the expenses but some are so blatant that I feel the client is just taking the mick and if I didn't pull them out I wouldn't be doing by job correctly -as mentioned in one of my previous responses about the client putting underwear etc through !
