Financial Modeller

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

RE: Confused - New to Bookkeeping - IAB IBC AAT?

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Hi Shaun,

The ICB may have already partly addressed the bookkeeping/accounting issue where their Level IV qualification is now entitled 'Level IV Certificate in Advanced Bookkeeping and Accounts'.

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll · Senior Member

Cheers Shaun, that explains in more depth. Whilst there may be those unqualified who go beyond trial balance and complete self assessments when they don't really know what they're doing (which is what Jo was emphasizing) there are those who do know what they're doing. I got the impression from Brian (and Matt) that an unqualified person shouldn't be let loose on the job - period.

Whilst I wouldn't let a unqualified heating engineer loose on my boiler I would an unqualified bookkeeper on my accounts if I had confidence in their ability. It's a skillset that can be picked up through experience.

Did you get my pm the other week by the way, I never got a reply (sob)

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll · Senior Member

Dave Campbell wrote:
Cheshire wrote:
Dave Campbell wrote:
Lol Jo, no chance not until I have given you them chocs
Ive been waiting about 14 months!!! Although dont reckon my boyfriend would too impressed if you now started scaling the walls of my house with the milk tray! Thats his job now and he knows I like Thorntons continentals!
Lol Oh Jo you missed a trick then as I was going to deliver them on Valentines day, just waiting for the black suit to come from the dry cleaners, now as I would have to deliver the milk tray without being seen your boyfriend would have pretended they were off him but he got you an extra box of Thorntons as well Some people just don't know there born

You slipped up there Dave. Jo's been waiting 14 months for her choccies. Had you delivered them last Valentines Day, you might have not had to compete with the Thorntons Continentals lol. (Assuming of course that Jo's fella wasn't with her then)

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll wrote:
Dave Campbell wrote:
Cheshire wrote:
Dave Campbell wrote:
Lol Jo, no chance not until I have given you them chocs
Ive been waiting about 14 months!!! Although dont reckon my boyfriend would too impressed if you now started scaling the walls of my house with the milk tray! Thats his job now and he knows I like Thorntons continentals!
Lol Oh Jo you missed a trick then as I was going to deliver them on Valentines day, just waiting for the black suit to come from the dry cleaners, now as I would have to deliver the milk tray without being seen your boyfriend would have pretended they were off him but he got you an extra box of Thorntons as well Some people just don't know there born

You slipped up there Dave. Jo's been waiting 14 months for her choccies. Had you delivered them last Valentines Day, you might have not had to compete with the Thorntons Continentals lol. (Assuming of course that Jo's fella wasn't with her then)

Lol It was a bit of banter going back a while now, it was quite a funny thread if I remember rightly, besides that John now I have a new metal hip my skydiving, shark fighting days are very much over, 51 going on 82 that's me lol

Interesting how many tangents this thread has taken, from AAT to ICB, from people who pass qualifications and starting a practice with some BKN regulars automatically thinking they wont do a good job, when even Jo herself never gets asked how qualified she is and with what body, how many clients even ask or care as long as they can do the job?

As I said before if they cant do the job they soon get found out as in any profession, I am a qualified butcher and I have seen and worked with some awful butchers, people who drive for a living, people who work in call centres, shop assistants, regardless of industry you will always get people who are qualified but useless at their job.

From massages from ex school cooks to Corgi gas specialists lol, you have to love the diversity on BKN

Dave

TrevorD · Senior Member

Good Evening Dave

I was a qualified boner for Sainsburys and got all my Danish Bacon exams - even had the chainmail glove. I bet we could exchange some funny stories. My best mate was medically retired by a frozen turkey !!!

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

TrevorD wrote:
Good Evening Dave
I was a qualified boner for Sainsburys and got all my Danish Bacon exams - even had the chainmail glove. I bet we could exchange some funny stories. My best mate was medically retired by a frozen turkey !!!

Hi Trevor, yes I have loads of funny stories, I think that is where I get my love for a bit of banter and you cant be a butcher without it. I don't think a lot of people realise what a skilled job a butcher is, in the old days it was butchers who used to do surgery on people who had to have an amputation, that's what my doctor told me anyway lol

It was the four quarters I used to love doing but hated dressing the Turkey's. miss the banter but too many long hours standing on your feet catches up with you. Still at least I have something I can always go back to.

Bit of a career change for you then Trevor?

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll wrote:

Did you get my pm the other week by the way, I never got a reply (sob)

Hi John,

just been through the inbox and there's nothing.

If it's not more than a month old it might be in the spam folder, hang on a sec ......

.... nope sorry. Checked both the inbox (I didn't answer all of those in the last few days of Jan so thought that it might have been missed there) and the spam filter. Nothing in either.

If you want to try again and let me know on here that it's been sent and I'll keep an eye out for it...

kind regards,

Shaun.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll wrote:
Cheers Shaun, that explains in more depth. Whilst there may be those unqualified who go beyond trial balance and complete self assessments when they don't really know what they're doing (which is what Jo was emphasizing) there are those who do know what they're doing. I got the impression from Brian (and Matt) that an unqualified person shouldn't be let loose on the job - period.
Whilst I wouldn't let a unqualified heating engineer loose on my boiler I would an unqualified bookkeeper on my accounts if I had confidence in their ability. It's a skillset that can be picked up through experience.
Did you get my pm the other week by the way, I never got a reply (sob)

Sorry for the delay - looks like Ive been online all day, but in reality I was away from my PC trying to sort out an almighty mess a client and their new invoice discounters had created for themselves.

Just to clarify - I dont have an issue with a bookkeeper who hasnt done the so called formal training, neither John as many have the ability, just not the exams. But I do have an issue with 'unqualified' (or not suitably qualified) so called accountants, because they can do a lot of damage.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll wrote:

You slipped up there Dave. Jo's been waiting 14 months for her choccies. Had you delivered them last Valentines Day, you might have not had to compete with the Thorntons Continentals lol. (Assuming of course that Jo's fella wasn't with her then)

John, methinks Dave is all promises and no follow through! He promised me so many times!!!!!! No my fella wasnt with me then, he is very much a recent 'acquisition' biggrin biggrin biggrin biggrin

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Dave Campbell wrote:
Lol It was a bit of banter going back a while now, it was quite a funny thread if I remember rightly, besides that John now I have a new metal hip my skydiving, shark fighting days are very much over, 51 going on 82 that's me lol
Interesting how many tangents this thread has taken, from AAT to ICB, from people who pass qualifications and starting a practice with some BKN regulars automatically thinking they wont do a good job, when even Jo herself never gets asked how qualified she is and with what body, how many clients even ask or care as long as they can do the job?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh Dave - how could you say it was just a bit of banter!!!!!!!!!! You would've broken my heart with that, except the b/f is around so Im a very happy bunny!
Has anyone else on here questioned how qualified people on BKN are and with what body? I dont think so. Although some people proffer that information by or within the answers the give to a wide variety of questions. Do you or the other training providers ever get asked how qualified you are, on here? But just to put your mind at rest, I can confirm I am financially qualified, with exams passed, from accountancy related training, in the banking sector. Also a large part of my career has been spent regularly looking at accounts and record keeping plus completing variance, ratio and trend analysis to review clients and potential clients financial position from the smallest enterprise to the many of the largest corporates within the UK.
An interesting thread all round - good thing we are all friendly, although Lottes might be wondering what she has joined!

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

TrevorD wrote:
Good Evening Dave
I was a qualified boner for Sainsburys and got all my Danish Bacon exams - even had the chainmail glove. I bet we could exchange some funny stories. My best mate was medically retired by a frozen turkey !!!

There is just no answer to this one!

Lottes · Member

Whilst you're all still here......

Do you think I could get a book on level 2 to get up to speed and then just launch into a learning provider doing level 3? Or is it best to get 2 out of the way and I can launch my services on the unwitting public? ;)

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Why not get a book on level two and then try the test on the AAT website for starters, see how you get on. You might decide you hate the whole idea!!

TrevorD · Senior Member

Now Lottes - I am going to be contentious - How much did it cost to get a PHD in chemical physics ? Surely, there is work, a Phd can do with your skills - IT work is so well paid - I have looked at excel contracts £350 a day plus !!!! you could beam Scottie up !!!

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Dave Campbell wrote:
Interesting how many tangents this thread has taken, from AAT to ICB, from people who pass qualifications and starting a practice with some BKN regulars automatically thinking they wont do a good job, when even Jo herself never gets asked how qualified she is and with what body, how many clients even ask or care as long as they can do the job?
As I said before if they cant do the job they soon get found out as in any profession, I am a qualified butcher and I have seen and worked with some awful butchers, people who drive for a living, people who work in call centres, shop assistants, regardless of industry you will always get people who are qualified but useless at their job.

I think that your over simplifying the responses Dave.

Going back to my botox analogy, most of the time everything is fine but when it's not the unqualified or under qualified person isn't equiped to take care of things.

This debate is not about putting things on a business card. It's about the profession being a level playing field where bodies such as ICB should not be allowed to flaunt the regulations and experience requirements that other professional bodies adhere to if they are going to offer the same services.

I think that I can see the point that you were aiming for in relation to people such as Jo not needing to use their higher level financial qualifications to find clients (I don't use mine either) but this debate is not about perception to others outside this business but rather about the rules that the professional bodies set being applicable accross the industry rather than certain bodies looking to circumvent such convention in order to win market share.

In your last paragraph I feel that emphasises the point that we are trying to make here in relation to underqualified people in this field who overstretch their abilities will ultimately suffer the consequences.

It's just a fact that the more qualified and experienced that people are the less overstretched their abilities will be.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Tut,

I take my time over a response (I have to on this subject matter otherwise I get misquoted, lol) and you sneak five in Jo! right, lets have a read...

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Lottes wrote:
Whilst you're all still here......

Do you think I could get a book on level 2 to get up to speed and then just launch into a learning provider doing level 3? Or is it best to get 2 out of the way and I can launch my services on the unwitting public? ;)

Hi Lottes,

http://www.amazon.co.uk/AAT-Units-Foundation-Course-Companion/dp/0751728926/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1423599022&sr=8-1&keywords=aat+units+1-4

and

http://www.amazon.co.uk/AAT-Units-Foundation-Revision-Companion/dp/0751746320/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1423599059&sr=8-2&keywords=aat+units+1-4

currently that will set you back 2p plus p&P

Also get

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Business-Accounts-Accounting-Finance-David/dp/1905777922/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1423599120&sr=8-1&keywords=david+cox

Which will explain anything that you have issues with.

Even I still use that latter book on occassion so well worth the investment.

Have fun,

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

TrevorD wrote:
Now Lottes - I am going to be contentious - How much did it cost to get a PHD in chemical physics ? Surely, there is work, a Phd can do with your skills - IT work is so well paid - I have looked at excel contracts £350 a day plus !!!! you could beam Scottie up !!!

Where??????? Seriously where have you read that job ad Trevor? If I get it there's a finders fee in it for you.

TrevorD · Senior Member

http://www.indeed.co.uk/jobs?as_and=excel+modelling&as_phr=&as_any=&as_not=&as_ttl=&as_cmp=&jt=contract&st=&salary=&radius=25&l=london&fromage=any&limit=10&sort=&psf=advsrch

Financial Modeller

Goodman Masson 2 reviews - London

£250,000 - £300,000 a year - Temporary, Contract

We are looking for a qualified accountant - preferably ACA/ CA or equivalent - with good Excel modelling skills....

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

That has to be a mistake for the requested skillset. Most jobs you're expected to have those Excel skills as a given rather than seperately sellable.

Bet thats one where the agent has emphasised a peripheral skill and completely missed the main skills that the jobs looking for.

I may give them a call tomorrow to see what the underlying skillset for that role is.

cheers for the pointer,

Shaun.

-- Edited by Shamus on Tuesday 10th of February 2015 08:50:19 PM

Lottes · Member

TrevorD wrote:
http://www.indeed.co.uk/jobs?as_and=excel+modelling&as_phr=&as_any=&as_not=&as_ttl=&as_cmp=&jt=contract&st=&salary=&radius=25&l=london&fromage=any&limit=10&sort=&psf=advsrch
Financial Modeller
Goodman Masson 2 reviews - London
£250,000 - £300,000 a year - Temporary, Contract
We are looking for a qualified accountant - preferably ACA/ CA or equivalent - with good Excel modelling skills....

If I was a qualified accountant, then sure ;)

I tried to get into modelling etc.... but you need a financial background half the time and the other a solely modelling based background. I did Excel/Fortran and lab work.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Its not obvious from the ad Lottes but that role must want an awful lot more than just a qualified accountant (even a chartered one) with Excel for that sort of money. In the smallprint I'm sure that you will find something like must be an oxbridge first, trained by one of the big four with first time passes on all papers and with extensive verifiable experience in a specific area such as multinational public company mergers and acquisitions.
For that job spec normally you wouldn't expect anywhere near that sort of money although there remains a rarity value of chartered accountants that clients are willing to pay for... But not £275k more.
Advanced Excel skills (Pivot tables, lookups, macro programming, etc.) in general are a given for financial professionals (such is implied without mention in job ads) and jobs based on that skillset alone are now quite rare.
Also, it's getting away from why you posted here which is not about working 18 hour days in corporate.

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll · Senior Member

Shamus wrote:
111 Bookkeeping and Payroll wrote:

Did you get my pm the other week by the way, I never got a reply (sob)
Hi John,
just been through the inbox and there's nothing.
<snip>
If you want to try again and let me know on here that it's been sent and I'll keep an eye out for it...
kind regards,
Shaun.

sent again - thanks Shaun

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi John,

got it this time but I'm in the middle of something important at the moment so will try to get around to it later this evening.

kindest regards,

Shaun.

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll · Senior Member

Cheshire wrote:
111 Bookkeeping and Payroll wrote:

You slipped up there Dave. Jo's been waiting 14 months for her choccies. Had you delivered them last Valentines Day, you might have not had to compete with the Thorntons Continentals lol. (Assuming of course that Jo's fella wasn't with her then)
John, methinks Dave is all promises and no follow through! He promised me so many times!!!!!! No my fella wasnt with me then, he is very much a recent 'acquisition'

Poor Dave, at least he tried lol. Best I could do was to hide my wife's chocolates in the car, completely forgetting she was helping me unload it. "Ooo, are those for me," "erm no". "Yes they are" "Oh all right yes they are" And who said romance was dead biggrin biggrin

Best wishes with your new "acquisition" lol, just don't tell him you've put him down as a fixed asset biggrin biggrin

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll · Senior Member

Shamus wrote:
Hi John,

got it this time but I'm in the middle of something important at the moment so will try to get around to it later this evening.

kindest regards,

Shaun.

There's no rush Shaun, anytime over the next couple of weeks will be fine

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll · Senior Member

Cheshire wrote:
111 Bookkeeping and Payroll wrote:
Cheers Shaun, that explains in more depth. Whilst there may be those unqualified who go beyond trial balance and complete self assessments when they don't really know what they're doing (which is what Jo was emphasizing) there are those who do know what they're doing. I got the impression from Brian (and Matt) that an unqualified person shouldn't be let loose on the job - period.
Whilst I wouldn't let a unqualified heating engineer loose on my boiler I would an unqualified bookkeeper on my accounts if I had confidence in their ability. It's a skillset that can be picked up through experience.
Did you get my pm the other week by the way, I never got a reply (sob)

Just to clarify - I dont have an issue with a bookkeeper who hasnt done the so called formal training, neither John as many have the ability, just not the exams. But I do have an issue with 'unqualified' (or not suitably qualified) so called accountants, because they can do a lot of damage.

Hi jo

I never got the impression you did, you were clear in your original post. Sorry I should have been more clear in my post

I agree with the unqualified accountant, and I stress to people that I unable to save them unnecessary tax, as I don't have the skills to do so. That's my next target, and I'm quite happy to get the qualifications I need to do so

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Typical banker though don't you think John.

even talks of boyfreinds in terms of acquisitions and mergers! lol.

Hi Jo, I suppose that means no more promises of getting hold of your buns for us boys then!

I have noted that John's only mentioned that he's married once he knew that you already have a romantic entanglement though, lol.

p.s. I think that partners are more long term liabilities than assets John :)

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll wrote:
Hi jo
I never got the impression you did, you were clear in your original post. Sorry I should have been more clear in my post
I agree with the unqualified accountant, and I stress to people that I unable to save them unnecessary tax, as I don't have the skills to do so. That's my next target, and I'm quite happy to get the qualifications I need to do so

No need John, was just making sure others were clear And I've no doubt you won't do anything you don't feel comfortable with as you made that clear in your posts. Good luck with any studying you might start....I find tax boring which is why I don't do it. Although I do like a challenge and sticking one on HMRC, so maybe I should!!

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Shamus wrote:
Typical banker though don't you think John.

even talks of boyfreinds in terms of acquisitions and mergers! lol.

Hi Jo, I suppose that means no more promises of getting hold of your buns for us boys then!

I have noted that John's only mentioned that he's married once he knew that you already have a romantic entanglement though, lol.

p.s. I think that partners are more long term liabilities than assets John :)

Hard to change the habit of 28 1/2 years!! I talk about boyfriends in terms of disposals as well if they're not careful.

Some boys will always be able to get hold of my buns, if they are truly appreciated.

John, you were lucky not to be single after the chocolates incident, how to look shifty in one easy lesson! Funny!

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll · Senior Member

Cheshire wrote:
Shamus wrote:
Typical banker though don't you think John.

even talks of boyfreinds in terms of acquisitions and mergers! lol.

Hi Jo, I suppose that means no more promises of getting hold of your buns for us boys then!

I have noted that John's only mentioned that he's married once he knew that you already have a romantic entanglement though, lol.

p.s. I think that partners are more long term liabilities than assets John :)
Hard to change the habit of 28 1/2 years!! I talk about boyfriends in terms of disposals as well if they're not careful.
Some boys will always be able to get hold of my buns, if they are truly appreciated.
John, you were lucky not to be single after the chocolates incident, how to look shifty in one easy lesson! Funny!

Is it that easy to become single lol. She was fine about it.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll wrote:
Is it that easy to become single

Absolutely, I do all my own divorces now.

Did you get the reply last night John?

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll · Senior Member

Just replied Shaun, thanks

Mariella · Newbie

Hello.. this is a very informative thread, I came to this forum because I have a couple of questions that maybe you people can help me with.. I decided to be an account/bookkeeper and work for myself.. my boyfriend is self-employed and encourage d me with my decision, he is waiting for me to finish my studies so I can do his paperwork... also his friend just gone into a small business of buying/selling cars and is looking for an accountant to do his paperwork, he asked me if I'm ready to do his accountancy and of course I said no.... I've done AAT2 and I'm in the first part of the AAT3 (Accounts Preparation)... and to be very honest, I have no idea how I could apply what I've learnt so far to real life.

Per the different comments on this thread it seems the AATs are a good route to go self-employed but I feel I'm bit stuck at the moment in this conundrum.. how can I go self-employed if what I've learnt so far doesn't seem to be relevant to doing accountancy to self-employers? will the relevant information come later in the course? Also practical/real exercises and how to set up your business? By the way I'm studying on my own because I don't have much finances and also because the negative comments I read on blogs and forums where people were saying they didn't get much help from a provider in terms of practical exercises, tutoring, etc.

I've been thinking about changing to IBM where I could maybe learn more relevant information and in a more practical way. Do you think this would be a good idea? Thanks

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Mariella

IBM?... Think that you might have been auto corrected.

With AAT at level IV you get to study accounts for incorporated and unincorporated business including accounting standards and ethics plus business and personal tax.

So far you've only done the introductory part which will have covered bookkeeping.

the bookkeeping qualifications teach similar stuff in a similar way and you will still finish the course scratching your head how to apply it to real life situations which is whats so good about this site in that it fills the gap between exams and reality.

Personally I would stick with AAT which is a qualification widely recognised by accountants but that's just my opinion.

kind regards,

Shaun.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Hi Mariella
Welcome to the site!
I wonded what IBM was too, thought it was one I had missed!

I agree, carry on with AAT as things will start to become clearer. I would also add do as much other reading as you can, alongside your existing AAT studies, will make it easier as you move up AAT eg read the Vat notices from HMRC, the wealth of information on Companies House website. My 1st client (as a bookkeeper) looked very straight forward on the face of it but has got me involved in foreign taxation, with another importing .....read the import guide from HMRC. I would say a good start for you is the VAT margin scheme and all you can find on Capital allowances etc., practical info...how to register as self employed, how to get UTR codes etc etc. then there are loads of books you can get to try out your revision on.

Well done you for saying no, when you are not ready and good luck with it all.

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Mariella wrote:
Hello.. this is a very informative thread, I came to this forum because I have a couple of questions that maybe you people can help me with.. I decided to be an account/bookkeeper and work for myself.. my boyfriend is self-employed and encourage d me with my decision, he is waiting for me to finish my studies so I can do his paperwork... also his friend just gone into a small business of buying/selling cars and is looking for an accountant to do his paperwork, he asked me if I'm ready to do his accountancy and of course I said no.... I've done AAT2 and I'm in the first part of the AAT3 (Accounts Preparation)... and to be very honest, I have no idea how I could apply what I've learnt so far to real life.

Per the different comments on this thread it seems the AATs are a good route to go self-employed but I feel I'm bit stuck at the moment in this conundrum.. how can I go self-employed if what I've learnt so far doesn't seem to be relevant to doing accountancy to self-employers? will the relevant information come later in the course? Also practical/real exercises and how to set up your business? By the way I'm studying on my own because I don't have much finances and also because the negative comments I read on blogs and forums where people were saying they didn't get much help from a provider in terms of practical exercises, tutoring, etc.

I've been thinking about changing to IBM where I could maybe learn more relevant information and in a more practical way. Do you think this would be a good idea? Thanks

Hi Mariella,

This is where my opinion differs from some on here as at AAT Levels 2 & 3 you can register to practice with HMRC but AAT will offer you no support as you cannot practice on your own under their umbrella at this level. So, in a way, you are left very much on your own until you achieve MAAT status on completion of Level 4. If you were to consider ICB Membership then they would provide you with all the guidance and support you need to get your bookkeeping business off the ground and there are a network of ICB Branches where you can lean on other members' experiences to help in your development as a bookkeeper.

I've said it before and I'll no doubt say it many times but if anyone is looking at qualifications purely for setting up as a self-employed bookkeeper then the ICB Membership route should be given serious consideration.

I wish you the very best of luck in your new venture smile

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Brian McVean wrote:
there are a network of ICB Branches where you can lean on other members' experiences to help in your development as a bookkeeper.

Morning Brian,

just like this site then except restricted to people only from one professional body rather an a cross selection of experienced bookkeepers and accountants from accross the industry.

I think that no matter which professional body you train with when you start in practice their exams do not prepare you for what comes next but at least you know that you are never on your own when you are a contributor on this site.

I like the analogy that someone made a couple of years back (wasn't me) that being on here feels like being back in a big office except that we're all in different parts of the country.

Hope that your having a good day,

kind regards,

Shaun.

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Morning Shaun,

So far, so good for today thanks, hope all is well with you too. I realise that this site is a great source of information and we as a company openly recommend students utilise this as well as their respective awarding body forums, as they can be very, very helpful. However, in cases such as Mariella's, having the back up and support of a profesisonal body when starting and growing as a bookkeeper can only be a positive thing. I've touched on this earlier in this thread but being able to promote herself as being attached to a professional body is also a major benefit in attracting clients based on her having little previous experience.

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll · Senior Member

Cheshire wrote:
Hi Mariella
Welcome to the site!
I wonded what IBM was too, thought it was one I had missed!

What!? You've never heard of the Institute of Bookkeeping Madhatters? I'm a lifelong member biggrin biggrin

Mariella · Newbie

Hi... thank you all for your responses, very helpful.. yes, I meant IAB shows right there my confusion on the subject :)

I will do my research to find some reading on taxation, VAT margin scheme, etc as you suggested Cheshire.. but I don't know at this point what any of that means.. already I find the AAT3 Accounts Preparation very difficult to digest mainly because I can't relate it to a real situation, I'm missing the visual, the real documents, the computer system... as I don't think a bookkeeper does all this stuff manually in the way it is taught in the course.

Brian you wrote: "This is where my opinion differs from some on here as at AAT Levels 2 & 3 you can register to practice with HMRC but AAT will offer you no support as you cannot practice on your own under their umbrella at this level"... if you cannot practice on your own why do they let people register to practice with HMRC at Level 2 &3, if they can't really practice, as in not allowed at that point? I don't fully understand that sentence.

I like this: "If you were to consider ICB Membership then they would provide you with all the guidance and support you need to get your bookkeeping business off the ground".. yeah because I would need at some point to know exactly how I can set up the business... and I don't see the AATs are going in that direction... but I will complete my AAT3 and then I'll see... I guess I can always change bodies.

Mariella

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

I think that it's a mistake that many make in the early stages that they concentrate on the computerised side rather than the manual side of things.

If something is proving difficult then you need to work at it rather than move to something easier as absolutely everything that you are learning at the moment is key concepts that need to be reflex type knowledge, on top of that there is going to be a lot of constant learning for the rest of your career as this is a business that never stands still.

The key to this profession is understanding why you are doing things, not necessarily simply how to do them.

Unless you understand how data will appear on the financial statements and why it appears where it does how can you hope to know that your data input is correct?

If you go over to ICB or IAB you will be doing exactly the same manual side of things as well as the computerised side.

If you look at later AAT papers such as preparing financial statements for an incorporated entity you will see more practical application of your knowledge.

Its a good idea as you state to push through to the end of level III before making a decision. I hope by then you will feel that AAT is a much better qualification than you think that it is at the moment (I think that most of us have the occassional wabble no matter what qualification we are studying).

kind regards,

Shaun.

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Mariella wrote:
Brian you wrote: "This is where my opinion differs from some on here as at AAT Levels 2 & 3 you can register to practice with HMRC but AAT will offer you no support as you cannot practice on your own under their umbrella at this level"... if you cannot practice on your own why do they let people register to practice with HMRC at Level 2 &3, if they can't really practice, as in not allowed at that point? I don't fully understand that sentence.

Hi Mariella, if going onto practice as a bookkeeper/accountant, to do so under their umbrella, professional bodies require you to have achieved a certain qualification level and/or experience, depending on their own regulations. The HMRC give those that are not attached to a professional body, or those who have not achieved the requirement of their professional body, the opportunity to be registered to practice under MLR. Like Shaun, I agree that you should complete your Level 3 AAT study and take stock. If you feel that you would benefit from the support of a professional body, then switch to ICB. If you feel your long term requirements are more accounting based then continue onto Level 4 AAT.

-- Edited by Brian McVean on Thursday 19th of February 2015 11:33:31 AM

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Brian McVean wrote:
then switch to ICB. If you feel your long term requirements are more accounting based then continue onto Level 4 AAT.

-- Edited by Brian McVean on Thursday 19th of February 2015 10:02:22 AM

Are you a member of ICB Brian? Only asking as I understood ICB and IAB to be similar yet you dont suggest Mariella looks at both.

Ive said AAT, as I think it provides a broader based learning and skills set achieved at the end of it, which doesnt restrict you if you want a change of career.

Mariella - you say

I will do my research to find some reading on taxation, VAT margin scheme, etc as you suggested Cheshire.. but I don't know at this point what any of that means.. already I find the AAT3 Accounts Preparation very difficult to digest mainly because I can't relate it to a real situation, I'm missing the visual, the real documents, the computer system... as I don't think a bookkeeper does all this stuff manually in the way it is taught in the course

Mariella - I suggested these sorts of things as when I started on this route I was actually setting up a business that was importing and retailing (including ecommerce) - so I just read everything I could get my hands on that would have an impact on my business - I couldnt even start my businessplan until I knew the impact of VAT, customs duty etc. I learnt at lot that way - and a lot of it Ive had to put into practice with my clients in my business now. You will only learn what these things mean and how they fit together by extending your training beyond what the training providers give you and start to relate them a real situations. I totally agree with Shaun that you should learn how to do things manually as well - a bookkeeper does a LOT that is manual, or needs your thought process to be able to understand it manually to set things up, sort messes out and be able to thing through process to know if they are correct or not. The manual stuff is the backbone of all!

Stick with it - go to your local library and do as much reading as you can in addition to the course material

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Cheshire wrote:
Are you a member of ICB Brian? Only asking as I understood ICB and IAB to be similar yet you dont suggest Mariella looks at both.

Hi Michelle, with my IDEAL tutor hat on I have to be a Member of ICB, but not for practising purposes....I'm busy enough here!! I recommended ICB for three reasons; 1) As a college we only offer ICB & AAT course options and I don't think advising anyone away from these would be a good idea (selfish), 2) Until recently, we were an IAB Accredited Provider so I have an idea of what they offer their membership. By way of services and benefits ICB simply offers far more to their membership and, 3) I read on here recently that IAB are providing practice licenses to those with a very basic manual bookkeeping knowledge (TB), with associated computerised skills. I do not think this is good for the industry after much work has been put in to improve standards.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Brian McVean wrote:

Hi Michelle, with my IDEAL tutor hat on I have to be a Member of ICB, but not for practising purposes....I'm busy enough here!! I recommended ICB for three reasons; 1) As a college we only offer ICB & AAT course options and I don't think advising anyone away from these would be a good idea (selfish), 2) Until recently, we were an IAB Accredited Provider so I have an idea of what they offer their membership. By way of services and benefits ICB simply offers far more to their membership and, 3) I read on here recently that IAB are providing practice licenses to those with a very basic manual bookkeeping knowledge (TB), with associated computerised skills. I do not think this is good for the industry after much work has been put in to improve standards.

Hi Laura, I mean Brian. Who is Michelle? my name is Joanne. biggrin I dont think Michelle (Fox) will thank you for being mixed up for me, although we are both fabulously funny, lovely northern lasses (well I have to say that as no one else will!)

Is that an industry wide thing then - HAVING to be a member, or just ICB? Intriguing that they insist you be a member, sounds like just further fee generation exercise to me. Not sure if that doesnt encourage a conflict. I understand why you wouldnt want to advise people away from ICB and AAT from your own business persepective although this of course then means that you are not necessarily giving a truly independent view. But I accept - thats like many businesses, closest I can think of is the investment advisor.

We definately agree on one thing - not good for the industry to be providing a practice licence to those who do not have the suitable skills, although I still think there is quite a way to go to getting the practice licence at the right level of what can be practised (guess its the latter/level of skills part where we differ!). What I would like to see is something whereby the average man on the street knows the difference between say a Chartered Accountant v almost there ACCA qualified v MATT (etc) v a bookkeeper who does eg a limited company's year end accounts (but could be missing something as they dont have the 'relevant' training) - I think the industry is a long way off that as everybody can call themselves 'Accountants'

Good to know a bit more about your background though Brian

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

Probably going to get into trouble for posting this during working hours but this is simple. Those who wish to use a Training Provider and be a Self-Employed Bookkeeper should ALWAYS go ICB first, once at MICB status can gain AAT exemptions and save hundreds of pounds in the process. Its simples

Dave
Training Link

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

So Dave - are you a member too?

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Cheshire wrote:
Hi Laura, I mean Brian. Who is Michelle? my name is Joanne. I dont think Michelle (Fox) will thank you for being mixed up for me, although we are both fabulously funny, lovely northern lasses (well I have to say that as no one else will!)
Is that an industry wide thing then - HAVING to be a member, or just ICB? Intriguing that they insist you be a member, sounds like just further fee generation exercise to me. Not sure if that doesnt encourage a conflict. I understand why you wouldnt want to advise people away from ICB and AAT from your own business persepective although this of course then means that you are not necessarily giving a truly independent view. But I accept - thats like many businesses, closest I can think of is the investment advisor.
We definately agree on one thing - not good for the industry to be providing a practice licence to those who do not have the suitable skills, although I still think there is quite a way to go to getting the practice licence at the right level of what can be practised (guess its the latter/level of skills part where we differ!). What I would like to see is something whereby the average man on the street knows the difference between say a Chartered Accountant v almost there ACCA qualified v MATT (etc) v a bookkeeper who does eg a limited company's year end accounts (but could be missing something as they dont have the 'relevant' training) - I think the industry is a long way off that as everybody can call themselves 'Accountants'
Good to know a bit more about your background though Brian

So sorry, Joanne, but at least I gave you a name that matched your gender biggrin . Although I have an element of self-interest I like to think that I'm pretty level headed and if I see that there is a better route that we can't provide, I'll hold my hands up and advise the student goes elsewhere. In the past I've sent a good few in the direction of Nick Craggs at PT. However, I do think I gave two very valid reasons why someone should select ICB over IAB and they were not built upon personal opinion, more fact. In Mariella's case, I think she should complete her AAT Level 3 and only then that she considers the ICB option if going self-employed. In the case, whichever route she takes, it has no advantage to me or IDEAL.

I believe all professional bodies would ask that their accredited providers have tutors that are at least qualified to the level that they are teaching. ICB ask that you undertake their own exams and that's why Membership is required.