I assume that would be an honourary membership like the degree's that some business people are awarded by various universities?
I understand why the training companies suggest their own courses as the best options for people and I am not saying that the two are mutually exclusive. It would be a silly situation if training companies offered courses for people if they did not believe those courses to be the best in the market.
There may of course be an element of if you only deal with that professional body you may not see the whole market in the same light.
The worrying thing about the sentiment of the post last night (and the reason that I answered it when I should have been packing up for the day) was that AAT is too difficult so opt to do ICB instead... I'm sure thats really not how the ICB wanted their qualification to be viewed but that seems to be how its being perceieved.
There is mention that AAT giving exemptions if you have ICB qualifications. Please could you state what those exemptions are (i.e. what level ICB you need to be) as the AAT site only mentions exemptions for those holding the IAB qualification. (not saying that you are wrong, just saying that it needs to be stated somewhere so that we can reference it).
of course, if the exemptions are only from AAT level II then they are not worth having as if you can do any bookkeeping qualification you can pass the AAT skillscheck and start your studies at level III.
Now, to my mind people who spend well over a thousand to save a few hundred might be looking at the wrong profession.
what the poster is expecting from ICB (serious tax kowledge) is, please correct me if I am wrong, not what ICB teach but rather she would need to be looking at the ATT qualification after AAT for that level of knowledge.
Have either of your businesses thought about offering a serious tax qualification such as ATT as that does appear to be what the market is asking for? I know that Premier were looking at that before Nick left but don't know where they went with that as I've still not seen it advertised on their site.
I'm not trying to make anyone's life a hard time but there are serious issues here over the market perception of the ICB qualification that whilst I know that the ICB are trying to get away from their old stance of giving practice certificates away with cornflake box tops to win market share the added complexity of their new exams is obviously not filtering through properly when the public still believe that if AAT is too difficult then there is always ICB to fall back on.
Maybe the introduction of practice certificate supervision before people are allowed to practice unsupervised would be a move in the right direction... The downside there of course is that if it was as difficult to practice under the ICB banner as under other bodies banners then why would people choose ICB over (say) AAT which is a much more widely recognised and respected qualification?
And thats not merely my opinion. As has been said before, just do a REED search based on a qualification and see the demand for it.
kind regards,
Shaun.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
just as a footnote, (we crossed in the post) Nick is now at First Intuition rather than Premier.
Neil is still with Premier.... Wonder where the boy wonder is? he's not posted on here in an age.
kind regards,
Shaun.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
I assume that would be an honourary membership like the degree's that some business people are awarded by various universities?
I understand why the training companies suggest their own courses as the best options for people and I am not saying that the two are mutually exclusive. It would be a silly situation if training companies offered courses for people if they did not believe those courses to be the best in the market.
There may of course be an element of if you only deal with that professional body you may not see the whole market in the same light.
The worrying thing about the sentiment of the post last night (and the reason that I answered it when I should have been packing up for the day) was that AAT is too difficult so opt to do ICB instead... I'm sure thats really not how the ICB wanted their qualification to be viewed but that seems to be how its being perceieved.
There is mention that AAT giving exemptions if you have ICB qualifications. Please could you state what those exemptions are (i.e. what level ICB you need to be) as the AAT site only mentions exemptions for those holding the IAB qualification. (not saying that you are wrong, just saying that it needs to be stated somewhere so that we can reference it).
of course, if the exemptions are only from AAT level II then they are not worth having as if you can do any bookkeeping qualification you can pass the AAT skillscheck and start your studies at level III.
Now, to my mind people who spend well over a thousand to save a few hundred might be looking at the wrong profession.
what the poster is expecting from ICB (serious tax kowledge) is, please correct me if I am wrong, not what ICB teach but rather she would need to be looking at the ATT qualification after AAT for that level of knowledge.
Have either of your businesses thought about offering a serious tax qualification such as ATT as that does appear to be what the market is asking for? I know that Premier were looking at that before Nick left but don't know where they went with that as I've still not seen it advertised on their site.
I'm not trying to make anyone's life a hard time but there are serious issues here over the market perception of the ICB qualification that whilst I know that the ICB are trying to get away from their old stance of giving practice certificates away with cornflake box tops to win market share the added complexity of their new exams is obviously not filtering through properly when the public still believe that if AAT is too difficult then there is always ICB to fall back on.
Maybe the introduction of practice certificate supervision before people are allowed to practice unsupervised would be a move in the right direction... The downside there of course is that if it was as difficult to practice under the ICB banner as under other bodies banners then why would people choose ICB over (say) AAT which is a much more widely recognised and respected qualification?
And thats not merely my opinion. As has been said before, just do a REED search based on a qualification and see the demand for it.
kind regards,
Shaun.
Ok, I'll take the bait and have a bite. Shaun, you've been a little naughty here and twisted what I was saying to suit your own end. At no stage did I give any impression that ICB would be an easier option. Indeed, I've said before in this same thread that in the actual bookkeeping and accounting elements, ICB Level III covers more than AAT Level 3. Particularly so in the computerised elements where AAT only cover basic data entry at Level 2. My advice was purely based on the support offered when setting up as a bookkeeper, which was one of Marriella's main concerns.
Let's not forget that Mariella is just starting her Level 3 study and has yet to encounter the technicalities of Indirect Tax, never mind recommending that she take a look at advanced personal or business tax. That can come later if she wishes and can be achieved with either AAT or ICB.
In this thread there has been a heavy emphasis on the self-employment side of things so the REED search means little with that as their main ambition. Yes, a short-term outlook which may change in time but guidance should be provided here based on the interest of the person asking the question. If someone's interest is self-employment, then provide the proper guidance so they get what they need. Earlier in this thread it was suggested that it's ok to go out and practice on your own following AAT Level 3 (no professional support) but 'hell mend us all' should someone do the same under ICB (full professional support). I raised this point earlier, which went largely (totally) ignored, but why is this acceptable?
AAT and ICB are fantastic bodies offering good practical qualifications, but the needs and long-term goals of their members vary greatly.
I was aware that Nick had moved on but I'd forwarded the referrals when he was at PT.
Anyway, now hopelessly behind and must get on with my paid job
I assume that would be an honourary membership like the degree's that some business people are awarded by various universities?
I understand why the training companies suggest their own courses as the best options for people and I am not saying that the two are mutually exclusive. It would be a silly situation if training companies offered courses for people if they did not believe those courses to be the best in the market.
There may of course be an element of if you only deal with that professional body you may not see the whole market in the same light.
The worrying thing about the sentiment of the post last night (and the reason that I answered it when I should have been packing up for the day) was that AAT is too difficult so opt to do ICB instead... I'm sure thats really not how the ICB wanted their qualification to be viewed but that seems to be how its being perceieved.
There is mention that AAT giving exemptions if you have ICB qualifications. Please could you state what those exemptions are (i.e. what level ICB you need to be) as the AAT site only mentions exemptions for those holding the IAB qualification. (not saying that you are wrong, just saying that it needs to be stated somewhere so that we can reference it).
of course, if the exemptions are only from AAT level II then they are not worth having as if you can do any bookkeeping qualification you can pass the AAT skillscheck and start your studies at level III.
Now, to my mind people who spend well over a thousand to save a few hundred might be looking at the wrong profession.
what the poster is expecting from ICB (serious tax kowledge) is, please correct me if I am wrong, not what ICB teach but rather she would need to be looking at the ATT qualification after AAT for that level of knowledge.
Have either of your businesses thought about offering a serious tax qualification such as ATT as that does appear to be what the market is asking for? I know that Premier were looking at that before Nick left but don't know where they went with that as I've still not seen it advertised on their site.
I'm not trying to make anyone's life a hard time but there are serious issues here over the market perception of the ICB qualification that whilst I know that the ICB are trying to get away from their old stance of giving practice certificates away with cornflake box tops to win market share the added complexity of their new exams is obviously not filtering through properly when the public still believe that if AAT is too difficult then there is always ICB to fall back on.
Maybe the introduction of practice certificate supervision before people are allowed to practice unsupervised would be a move in the right direction... The downside there of course is that if it was as difficult to practice under the ICB banner as under other bodies banners then why would people choose ICB over (say) AAT which is a much more widely recognised and respected qualification?
And thats not merely my opinion. As has been said before, just do a REED search based on a qualification and see the demand for it.
kind regards,
Shaun.
Hi Shaun
Bit of a harsh statement.
Brian has already mentioned that Ideal have students who have gone straight into to AAT at Level 4 based on their MICB status, we have had students who were also given exemption to AAT Level 4.
Again I have personally mentioned that with AAT they leave it to the Training Provider as to what Level someone can start at, you can confirm this with AAT training providers on this forum.
Regarding a course for Taxation I would have thought an underpinning knowledge in Bookkeeping would be a requirement before even getting to the stage where you want to do a taxation course?
My posts on here have nothing to do with the posters questions but was highlighting the fact that students who wish to embark on a Bookkeeping career on a Self-Employed Basis using a Training Provider then ICB has to be the way forward based on the exemptions granted to AAT, this is simple math.
My job is to advise, and as Brian mentioned in an earlier post he, like myself have listened to what a potential student wants to achieve and thought AAT to be the better option and as such have told this to the potential student. Nick can verify both Brian and I have provided Premier with new students as we felt ICB was not the path for them.
The poster is doing AAT Level 3 and therefore I feel Brian's answer to the poster was spot on, I don't want my response to confuse anyone apart from merely to state that anyone who wants to be a self-employed Bookkeeper and use the services of a Training Provider will be told by me in ALL instances to go down the ICB route and look at AAT as CPD where with the exemptions can with some providers go straight in at Level 4.
Are you a member of ICB Brian? Only asking as I understood ICB and IAB to be similar yet you dont suggest Mariella looks at both.
Hi Michelle, with my IDEAL tutor hat on I have to be a Member of ICB, but not for practising purposes....I'm busy enough here!! I recommended ICB for three reasons; 1) As a college we only offer ICB & AAT course options and I don't think advising anyone away from these would be a good idea (selfish), 2) Until recently, we were an IAB Accredited Provider so I have an idea of what they offer their membership. By way of services and benefits ICB simply offers far more to their membership and, 3) I read on here recently that IAB are providing practice licenses to those with a very basic manual bookkeeping knowledge (TB), with associated computerised skills. I do not think this is good for the industry after much work has been put in to improve standards.
This is exactly the same as what I heard outside of this forum and as such I will never see IAB in the same league as the ICB for those looking to be SELF EMPLOYED regardless if they are recognised by OFQUAL
Sorry for the delay, had to pop out and get yet more printer ink (sure that damn thing drinks the stuff).
Ok, I'll take the bait and have a bite. Shaun, you've been a little naughty here and twisted what I was saying to suit your own end. At no stage did I give any impression that ICB would be an easier option.
Not actually what I said, I'm stating that it's the impression of the poster that it's the easier option. As she clearly states that she is having difficulty with AAT so is considering ICB.
Indeed, I've said before in this same thread that in the actual bookkeeping and accounting elements, ICB Level III covers more than AAT Level 3.
I doubt it, but if it does, why? AAT is the cutover from bookkeeping to accounting where ICB is only supposed to be bookkeeping (it isn't).
Particularly so in the computerised elements where AAT only cover basic data entry at Level 2.
People are learning to be bookkeepers and accountants, not data entry clerks. The important stuff is all in the manual side with the computerised side helping people to fit into the expectations of the workplace. This is one of the things that the ICB has got right in that they have moved away from people being able to practice with either one or the other but now needing both which ensures that people must do the manual side of things in order to abe able to practice.
My advice was purely based on the support offered when setting up as a bookkeeper, which was one of Marriella's main concerns.
Let's not forget that Mariella is just starting her Level 3 study and has yet to encounter the technicalities of Indirect Tax, never mind recommending that she take a look at advanced personal or business tax. That can come later if she wishes and can be achieved with either AAT or ICB.
I would not define either of those options as advanced which is which I mentioned progressing from AAT to ATT.
In this thread there has been a heavy emphasis on the self-employment side of things so the REED search means little with that as their main ambition.
Such ignores that people will be dealing with accountants on a day to day basis even in a self employed capacity.
Yes, a short-term outlook which may change in time but guidance should be provided here based on the interest of the person asking the question. If someone's interest is self-employment, then provide the proper guidance so they get what they need. Earlier in this thread it was suggested that it's ok to go out and practice on your own following AAT Level 3 (no professional support) but 'hell mend us all' should someone do the same under ICB (full professional support). I raised this point earlier, which went largely (totally) ignored, but why is this acceptable?
I think that is something of a bastardisation of what I have said. My defence is of the AAT qualification not an attack on the ICB one. People are keen to rush to push ICB as THE option for bookkeepers ignoring the fact that ICB has moved away from bookkeeping and into accountancy (taking on AAT on the same turf) hoping that nobody will notice.
That of course is a reflection of general market expectations in that micro businesses perceive bookkeepers as cheap accountants able to offer a full service but cheaper. Micro businesses which are many bookkeepers primary target market do not expect to go to one person to do bookkeeping to rtrial balance and another to do the accounts and tax returns.
ICB very wisely saw this which is why they have changed from a bookkeeping to an accounting qualification but still hold onto the spin that they are a bookkeeping qualification. European legislation currently protects that from being challenged as accountancy as a profession cannot at the moment be protected in the UK.
AAT and ICB are fantastic bodies offering good practical qualifications, but the needs and long-term goals of their members vary greatly.
I was aware that Nick had moved on but I'd forwarded the referrals when he was at PT.
Anyway, now hopelessly behind and must get on with my paid job
Ditto but need to answer Dave as well first.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
For my two peneth worth I would give exemptions from AAT level 2 for the ICB level 2 (i think it is now) but i wouldnt give anyone an exemption from level 3 AAT, as there is no management accounting in the ICB (unless they have done the ICB level 4 qual).
I do apprecaite the referals Brain and Dave, in fact I must thank you for a recent one Brian.
As for boy wonder, he has been winning PQ awards and wining and dining himself in London!
Nick
__________________
Nick
Nick Craggs FMAAT ACA AAT Distance Learning Manager
Brian has already mentioned that Ideal have students who have gone straight into to AAT at Level 4 based on their MICB status, we have had students who were also given exemption to AAT Level 4.
On the basis of exemptions alone or the skills check? It's always worth remembering that these training providers are businesses so if one can win over another by offering more exemptions I am sure that on occassion if they feel that they might lose the student to a different provider they offer exemptions which are perhaps too much for the candidate but get their business.
Remember that not all training providers share the same moral code as the likes of Premier, Training Link and Ideal.
Again I have personally mentioned that with AAT they leave it to the Training Provider as to what Level someone can start at, you can confirm this with AAT training providers on this forum.
Nick used to get quite annoyed at the level of exemptions that some training providers were willing to give. Then again, every student is different. The inference in that statement is that the student had done ICB and then moved to AAT... Had they done a qualification before ICB? I know that the ICB advertise for ACCA and CIMA people to join them in PQ magazine so I wonder if the cases being spoken of here are those who are still looking for the right qualification for them.
Regarding a course for Taxation I would have thought an underpinning knowledge in Bookkeeping would be a requirement before even getting to the stage where you want to do a taxation course?
Exactly, which is why I said AAT to ATT. We're in agreement I feel that the progression for everyone should be bookkeeping, accountancy, tax. Certainly thats the format of accountancy qualifications.
I know that there is a flaw in that for people coming to accountancy with a relevant degree meaning with a few universities it is possible to become an accountant without ever having done bookkeeping... I think that ACCA have realised that and have changed the exemptions database to now also use the actual university that you gained the accountancy degree at as part of the exemptions criteria so avoiding that historic anomaly.
My posts on here have nothing to do with the posters questions but was highlighting the fact that students who wish to embark on a Bookkeeping career on a Self-Employed Basis using a Training Provider then ICB has to be the way forward based on the exemptions granted to AAT, this is simple math.
But ignores that the person has needed to buy ICB courses through to MICB (simpler math).
My job is to advise, and as Brian mentioned in an earlier post he, like myself have listened to what a potential student wants to achieve and thought AAT to be the better option and as such have told this to the potential student. Nick can verify both Brian and I have provided Premier with new students as we felt ICB was not the path for them.
The poster is doing AAT Level 3 and therefore I feel Brian's answer to the poster was spot on, I don't want my response to confuse anyone apart from merely to state that anyone who wants to be a self-employed Bookkeeper and use the services of a Training Provider will be told by me in ALL instances to go down the ICB route and look at AAT as CPD where with the exemptions can with some providers go straight in at Level 4.
ICB is an excellent qualification if you are going to be doing bookkeeping but more and more people are doing it because they want to be accountants but without any of the complex learning or pre being allowed to practice professional supervision.
As mentioned above to Brian, the issue is that ICB is now an entry level accountancy qualification masquerading as a bookkeeping one so avoiding the extended study timeframe that accounting requires.
Also, I think that going straight into the top level of any qualification the student would struggle. I'm with Nick on this one in that except for exceptional circumstances such as someone moving down to a qualification rather than up to it then the approach of exempting only from fundamental papers is the best approach.
Dave
Really got to do stuff but will come back to this, probably tomorrow evening now.
Looking forwards to the debate.
Shaun.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
I must drop Neil a line to find out if he ever got his BKN award.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
All
Dave - BTW - I only asked about whether or not you were a member of ICB given I had just found out that Brian needed to be. Although clearly neither of you are of the IAB, given your comments, if ever you were before.
Shaun says - There is mention that AAT giving exemptions if you have ICB qualifications. Please could you state what those exemptions are (i.e. what level ICB you need to be)? I would be keen to know these too. My son is just looking to start down the path of training and as yet hasnt decided where he wants to be (he has just given up a very successful career so far as a Chef, but is a bright lad - did Chesmistry and Forensics degree). Everyone he has spoken to and Im not just talking training providers, but bookkeepers and Chartered bods, including one Accountant he did work experience for recently, have all said to aim for the higher entry level AAT and/or ACCA courses, because he is so bright. Their words not mine!
Regardless of all that (cos now I need to re-read all the comments since I was last on here cos Im clearly losing my thread)....my initial thoughts/questions still stand....how can a bookkeeper be called an accountant or be given a practice licence when other bodies make you jump through so MANY more hoops to get to that stage. Surely those hoops are there to protect the person doing the job and the frankly unsuspecting public.
''Regarding a course for Taxation I would have thought an underpinning knowledge in Bookkeeping would be a requirement before even getting to the stage where you want to do a taxation course?'' Totally agree, but dont you think the public consider anyone using the words 'accounting' / 'accountancy' / 'accountant' in their company/job title has done this?
Sorry guys - Im going have to leave this until weekend as Im finding im not formulating my arguments very well whilst still trying to work!
Nick - I think I will point my son in your direction.
__________________
Joanne
Winner of Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 & 2017
Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.
You should check out answers with reference to the legal position
Sorry for the delay, had to pop out and get yet more printer ink (sure that damn thing drinks the stuff).
Ok, I'll take the bait and have a bite. Shaun, you've been a little naughty here and twisted what I was saying to suit your own end. At no stage did I give any impression that ICB would be an easier option.
Not actually what I said, I'm stating that it's the impression of the poster that it's the easier option. As she clearly states that she is having difficulty with AAT so is considering ICB. Actually, if you re-read the posts, Mariella initially mentions IBM but later corrects herself to IAB. it was me that mentioned ICB for Membership consideration. Perhaps you're right though, with recent revelations perhaps IAB are now seen as an easy route to self-employment as a bookkeeper. Not so with ICB who insist on a proper level of testing and have worked harder than any other to promote bookkeeping as a profession.
Indeed, I've said before in this same thread that in the actual bookkeeping and accounting elements, ICB Level III covers more than AAT Level 3.
I doubt it, but if it does, why? AAT is the cutover from bookkeeping to accounting where ICB is only supposed to be bookkeeping (it isn't). Sorry, but its fact. AAT do not cover not for profit or any form of computerisation as part of their lever 3 qualification.
Particularly so in the computerised elements where AAT only cover basic data entry at Level 2.
People are learning to be bookkeepers and accountants, not data entry clerks. The important stuff is all in the manual side with the computerised side helping people to fit into the expectations of the workplace. This is one of the things that the ICB has got right in that they have moved away from people being able to practice with either one or the other but now needing both which ensures that people must do the manual side of things in order to abe able to practice.Excellent, an aspect we agree on . I can't comment on Mariella's training but our own courses use many, many practical execrises and I will concede that once anyone is in practice, in many ways, the learning is jujst beginning.
My advice was purely based on the support offered when setting up as a bookkeeper, which was one of Marriella's main concerns.
Let's not forget that Mariella is just starting her Level 3 study and has yet to encounter the technicalities of Indirect Tax, never mind recommending that she take a look at advanced personal or business tax. That can come later if she wishes and can be achieved with either AAT or ICB.
I would not define either of those options as advanced which is which I mentioned progressing from AAT to ATT. Regardless of the level of taxation or what a provider chooses to offer, the fact is that Mariella should be concentrating on the basics before even contemplating these elements.
In this thread there has been a heavy emphasis on the self-employment side of things so the REED search means little with that as their main ambition.
Such ignores that people will be dealing with accountants on a day to day basis even in a self employed capacity. I know of hundreds of ICB qualified Members that have gone onto forge very successful relationships with accountants, who value their level of knowledge.
Yes, a short-term outlook which may change in time but guidance should be provided here based on the interest of the person asking the question. If someone's interest is self-employment, then provide the proper guidance so they get what they need. Earlier in this thread it was suggested that it's ok to go out and practice on your own following AAT Level 3 (no professional support) but 'hell mend us all' should someone do the same under ICB (full professional support). I raised this point earlier, which went largely (totally) ignored, but why is this acceptable?
I think that is something of a bastardisation of what I have said. My defence is of the AAT qualification not an attack on the ICB one. People are keen to rush to push ICB as THE option for bookkeepers ignoring the fact that ICB has moved away from bookkeeping and into accountancy (taking on AAT on the same turf) hoping that nobody will notice. There is no need for you to defend the AAT as no-one is criticising it in any way. Its a first class, long standing, well respected qualification that is the main route to becoming a qualified accountant. My point is that they provide no support to their membership if they wish to become self-employed unless they complete MAAT status and gain work experience, a level that many do not pursue or complete. My point here is that ICB do not leave their practising members to fend for themselves and offer a support service.
That of course is a reflection of general market expectations in that micro businesses perceive bookkeepers as cheap accountants able to offer a full service but cheaper. Micro businesses which are many bookkeepers primary target market do not expect to go to one person to do bookkeeping to rtrial balance and another to do the accounts and tax returns.
ICB very wisely saw this which is why they have changed from a bookkeeping to an accounting qualification but still hold onto the spin that they are a bookkeeping qualification. European legislation currently protects that from being challenged as accountancy as a profession cannot at the moment be protected in the UK. Ive done what I do for over 23 years. From day one there have been a number of qualification bodies that have aimed their qualifications at the completion of final accounting reports and many used these skills to further their current employment. So, back in the day you had IAB, Pitman or C&G qualified individuals completing accounts for businesses and not an eye lid batted. Now that ICB have brought the bookkeeping profession to the forefront of the requirement of the small business it seems to have caused a stir, but its to the 100% benefit of the small business. The fact that a micro or small business no longer need to pay an accountant £60+ per hour for their services is clearly ruffling a few feathers!!
AAT and ICB are fantastic bodies offering good practical qualifications, but the needs and long-term goals of their members vary greatly.
I was aware that Nick had moved on but I'd forwarded the referrals when he was at PT.
Anyway, now hopelessly behind and must get on with my paid job
All Dave - BTW - I only asked about whether or not you were a member of ICB given I had just found out that Brian needed to be. Although clearly neither of you are of the IAB, given your comments, if ever you were before.
Shaun says - There is mention that AAT giving exemptions if you have ICB qualifications. Please could you state what those exemptions are (i.e. what level ICB you need to be)? I would be keen to know these too. My son is just looking to start down the path of training and as yet hasnt decided where he wants to be (he has just given up a very successful career so far as a Chef, but is a bright lad - did Chesmistry and Forensics degree). Everyone he has spoken to and Im not just talking training providers, but bookkeepers and Chartered bods, including one Accountant he did work experience for recently, have all said to aim for the higher entry level AAT and/or ACCA courses, because he is so bright. Their words not mine! There are no AAT exemptions. It's up to the learner and provider to determine the entry level, and there's always the AAT Skillscheck to settle any arguments. If your son is considering self-employment, then ICB. If an accounting career, then AAt. If self-employment then accounting, then ICB onto AAT. Why not just advise him to take the same qualoification route as yourself as this has obviously worked for you.
Regardless of all that (cos now I need to re-read all the comments since I was last on here cos Im clearly losing my thread)....my initial thoughts/questions still stand....how can a bookkeeper be called an accountant or be given a practice licence when other bodies make you jump through so MANY more hoops to get to that stage. Surely those hoops are there to protect the person doing the job and the frankly unsuspecting public. Bottom line, it's down to the provider. If you have an ambition and a provider can't deliver, then look elsewhere, as long as training and qualification standards are being met. There are many ICB Members that do a first class job for their clients and make a good living and it's unfair to undermine their hard work with sweeping generalisations.
''Regarding a course for Taxation I would have thought an underpinning knowledge in Bookkeeping would be a requirement before even getting to the stage where you want to do a taxation course?'' Totally agree, but dont you think the public consider anyone using the words 'accounting' / 'accountancy' / 'accountant' in their company/job title has done this? Agreed
Sorry guys - Im going have to leave this until weekend as Im finding im not formulating my arguments very well whilst still trying to work!
Nick - I think I will point my son in your direction.
It is true that AAT does not cover not for profit, and it would be worth having, but where would you stop? There is nothing for accounting for solicitors which is very different etc.
Computerised accounting is covered at level 2 of the AAT, and to be honest, i dont think that students really need to know much more than what is covered in this unit. But this is the problem with people jumping into qualifications at different levels. I personally are fine with people coming into AAT level 3 if they have a really good grasp of double entry but I wouldnt really want a student that is coming into level 4 who has had no management accounting experience before. I also think that as a training provider you are not doing the right thing by the student or the AAT by letting the student skip the professional ethics unit, no matter how boring it is.
This one thing that the ICB has over the AAT, in that it is the ICB who decide the exemptions, where as the AAT leave it up to the training provider
Neil's AAT distance learning facebook group won the PQ award for student body of the year, it was a couple of weeks ago down in London.
The new job is going really, really well. I am amazingly busy, but in a good way. Also the ability to work from home means i can see my daughters a lot more now.
Joanne, if your son wants to chat about the different qualifications open to him, i have taught IAB, ICB, AAT, C&G and ACCA, feel free to give me a call.
All the best
Nick
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Nick
Nick Craggs FMAAT ACA AAT Distance Learning Manager
To me the "no brainer" route is to do AAT then just join the IAB for practicing. My local college does the AAT for around £500 per level and you get the best if both worlds. Self employment and the AAT qualification should you ever wish to go into employment.
It is true that AAT does not cover not for profit, and it would be worth having, but where would you stop? There is nothing for accounting for solicitors which is very different etc.
Computerised accounting is covered at level 2 of the AAT, and to be honest, i dont think that students really need to know much more than what is covered in this unit. But this is the problem with people jumping into qualifications at different levels. I personally are fine with people coming into AAT level 3 if they have a really good grasp of double entry but I wouldnt really want a student that is coming into level 4 who has had no management accounting experience before. I also think that as a training provider you are not doing the right thing by the student or the AAT by letting the student skip the professional ethics unit, no matter how boring it is.
This one thing that the ICB has over the AAT, in that it is the ICB who decide the exemptions, where as the AAT leave it up to the training provider
Neil's AAT distance learning facebook group won the PQ award for student body of the year, it was a couple of weeks ago down in London.
The new job is going really, really well. I am amazingly busy, but in a good way. Also the ability to work from home means i can see my daughters a lot more now.
Joanne, if your son wants to chat about the different qualifications open to him, i have taught IAB, ICB, AAT, C&G and ACCA, feel free to give me a call.
All the best
Nick
Hi Nick, glad to hear things are going well for you. Can I just stress here that I am in no way being critical of the AAT qualification just highlighting the fact that there are times when the full level of qualification is not necessarily what the student needs or wants.
To me the "no brainer" route is to do AAT then just join the IAB for practicing. My local college does the AAT for around £500 per level and you get the best if both worlds. Self employment and the AAT qualification should you ever wish to go into employment.
Hi Matt, that's exactly what I've suggested that the student does on this occasion, although I'd suggested ICB for reasons stated earlier. Whether you gain AAT then ICB or ICB then AAT makes no real difference. However, if your main aim is self employment then it would make more sense to get qualified and enjoy the support and benefits of one of the bookkeeping bodies, then look at the AAT side of things as backup.
That's it for me today so I bid you all a good day and have a restful weekend
-- Edited by Brian McVean on Friday 20th of February 2015 08:34:23 AM
You say it makes no difference which way you do it but if you just did AAT it would be a lot cheaper. The reason I suggested IAB was the cost. To practice through ICB using AAT exemptions it would cost over £300 whereas IAB is a small charge. I was in the situation a few years ago where I wanted to practice alongside my employment and this route was the best in terms of learning, cost and leaving all options open.
and twisted what I was saying to suit your own end. At no stage did I give any impression that ICB would be an easier option. Indeed, I've said before in this same thread that in the actual bookkeeping and accounting elements, ICB Level III covers more than AAT Level 3. Particularly so in the computerised elements where AAT only cover basic data entry at Level 2. My advice was purely based on the support offered when setting up as a bookkeeper, which was one of Marriella's main concerns. 
