You are mistaken, it is really nice, clean, gets rid of a lot of faffing, you may well grow to hate the old and love the new.
Promise.
Try using one of the other colour schemes...
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I've only used it very briefly, when I was called in to 'reboot' a company's internal accounting at the start of a new financial year - but I'm inclined to side with Bruce on this: It is much cleaner. If I hadn't vowed to avoid spending any more money on Sage unless it's necessary (and if it wasn't so damned expensive), I think I'd rather be using the new version than the old.
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Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software
(I only came here looking for fellow apiarists...)
I have a few deep discounted upgrades (eg £600 instead of £1140 for pro Version) if you want
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The "unless it's necessary" is an important point. While the version I have works and does everything I need, it isn't necessary.
And, TBH, my thinking has always been that if I do need to upgrade to a newer version (since the current one is set for three companies), I'd be inclined to go down the route of buying a laptop and Sage Instant for each installation for company for which I need a new Sage.
i.e. if I only needed it for one company out of the three for which my copy is used, I'd buy a laptop and a copy of Instant to use for that company, and carry on using Sage 50 for the other two. (Which would also mean I have a spare company in the existing version if I take on a new client, or want to move someone's records onto my own system, or whatever).
This largely stems from a disagreement I had with Sage a few years ago.
Another point is that I really, really, REALLY want to sit down and start putting together my test scenarios* to pit against any and every package I can get a free trial of, to see if I can find something to use as an alternative that suits my requirements, so I can move away from Sage. Spending money on Sage is very counter to that.
* And/or start thinking seriously about writing somethng myself - but with the amount of stuff I'm doing at the moment (not bookkeeping and accounts related) I really can't see that happening any time soon. :/
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Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software
(I only came here looking for fellow apiarists...)
For just about anything Sage :- switch to renting, pay-as-you-go sage support, sagecover, upgrades, application integration, reports, layouts, analysis or any other help making life with sage easier/less time consuming Contact me.
Instant is out, there are some issues upgrading, I had a fun job with it today, the data service dies when you try converting data already on the PC!
Creating a new company and then restoring the data afresh seems to work around the issue.
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No. A very quick look (I'm very busy today) suggests it's a cloudy thing. When I do eventually get around to documenting all of my test scenarios, and pitting alternative accounts packages against them, I'll be looking at desktop solutions first and foremost, and cloud solutions after - and then only if I can't settle on a suitable desktop solution.
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Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software
(I only came here looking for fellow apiarists...)
It uses a web browser to render its user interface but you can install it on a PC and run it in the office not on the cloud.
Whether something is desktop or cloud really doesn't make any difference, I don't see why you use it as a criteria as to whether you evaluate now or later. Clearly the Cloud environment is where applications are moving, getting rid of the need to install and maintain desktop software, being able to operate on a wide variety of platforms all make good sense, indeed why get tied down to a desktop with all the additional costs and security issues.
The line between desktop and cloud is fuzzy at best now Sage instant and 50 are able to run with Sage drive in a hybrid mode, where they are both on the desktop and in the cloud at the same time.
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Hi Bruce. Whilst I realise that the cloud platform is all the rage these days, the one question I keep asking and doesn't get answered is "What happens when the cloud platform goes wrong?" Be it the company going bust or a hacking of their systems. I use Dropbox as a backing up tool, and it also means I have that info on my home computer as well, but it still leaves me with being able to back up independently.
If anything happened to one of the major cloud bookkeeping solutions it would leave many businesses high and dry. Sorry, but it's a desktop solution any day of the week for me.
Well with odoo the software can be in the cloud or on your own server/workstation and you can backup the database files just as you can with any other accounting system, the software is open source it is perennially licensed to everyone.
The same goes with most cloud software you can take a backup and put it on your PC.
What do you do if you install an update to your desktop app and it breaks the app? I remember this happening with mainstream software in the past, and what happened in every case is that heaven and earth got moved to fix it damn quick.
Cloud systems do not "exist" in the sense of a physical PC they are distributed over multiple computers, they are designed to allow for individual servers to fail yet for the cloud of servers to continue running.
With such large user bases, the "cloud" apps have rigorous testing, they roll out changes in phases, a few people at a time, indeed form a developer point of view it is much safer because you are much less likely to end up in a situation where thousands of customers have installed an update that breaks their systems. There is a lot more control over the cloud hardware environment in which the software runs, users can't install spyware in the same cloud or have a strange bit of hardware causing a conflict and so on, the system is very robust.
Loosing a cloud app, having it fail in any dramatic way has a probability that is very very small, you are going to face much more likely problems such as the person who knows the password dying, or the accountant stealing all the money out the bank account or all your PC's being stolen or a disgruntled employee wiping all the disks, a fire burning all your cash books and prime records, or or.
"What happens when the cloud platform goes wrong?" is really the same question as "What happens when your PC or Windows goes wrong?" only the probability of it happening is tiny, and the answer is that people fix it quickly.
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Another issue is the one of migration and continued data access.
I've already encountered one case where a company moved from the cloud to a desktop solution - bucking the trend somewhat, there - and simply moved opening balances across.
The problem? They thought that's all they had to do. I pointed out to them that they still needed their accounting records from the period they were using the cloud - but they no longer had access to it. Oops. (I was only called in to deal with a specific issue, that was an aside that I picked up on and pointed out to them - last I heard, they still don't have access to the data.)
The records could have been printed, sure - very green that. Or the data could in theory have been exported if the cloud solution offers it - but then, even if it's in an 'industry standard' format such as CSV, that's utterly meaningless because when it's imported into something else, a large part of the work that went into creating that data is magically lost - information that just isn't carried in CSV files, and which is handled differently in different packages.
That's the advantage with a (perpetually licenced) desktop package. Even if you change packages, you still have the old software, and can access your old data in that package. A copy of that data stored in a cloud-based backup solution (which I assume you mean by "sage drive" is one thing - but see below), but a solution where the data is held in the cloud (or where the software isn't perpetually licenced) is Data as a Protection Racket, and I want no part of it.
"It uses a web browser to render its user interface but you can install it on a PC and run it in the office not on the cloud."
The user interface is another issue. A good UI allows those adept with a keyboard to use that keyboard to the max, and keep use of the mouse to a minimum. The web browser interface is geared more towards consumption, so the mouse is ideal. I've yet to find something with a web-based interface that truly caters for keyboard-bashers like me.
(As an aside, I've observed that some users don't use the keyboard fully - instead of hitting the tab key to move from one field to the next, for example, they'll turn to the mouse, point at the next filed, then click into it. The effect that has on the time it takes to do something is, IMO, quite probably a large factor in why some users don't find transaction-per-page interfaces, such as QuickBooks, as much of a hindrance as I do. Coming back on-topic, I suspect this is also a contributing factor in terms of some people being more comfortable with web-based interfaces, as mandated by a cloud-based platform, than I am. In short, it's not slower for them because they're already working at the right speed and using the right methodology for the interface).
"Whether something is desktop or cloud really doesn't make any difference, I don't see why you use it as a criteria as to whether you evaluate now or later."
Because the assertion you've put as the first half of that sentence is really just an opinion, and my opinion differs. Massively.
"Clearly the Cloud environment is where applications are moving, getting rid of the need to install and maintain desktop software, being able to operate on a wide variety of platforms all make good sense, indeed why get tied down to a desktop with all the additional costs and security issues."
You've actually highlighted another good point - but not in the way you intended - with the last part of that sentence: Security issues.
Every few days on some of the news sites I read there are articles about data breaches - some fairly small and low profile, some much higher - and this could happen with cloud-based accounts data. You are taking it on trust that your cloud purveyor of choice is doing things correctly. I trust my own ability to secure equipment under my control a hell of a lot more than I trust some random unknowns, sitting in some far off office, to secure data that is sitting on a server somewhere and is, in effect, visible to one and all subject to their ability to secure it.
And the great thing about all of that? You won't know if the data you have in your preferred cloud vendor is insecure until it's too late. If you ever (hopefully never) discover the cloud-provider isn't as secure as they should have been, you'll be finding out after the horse has bolted. Until then, you just have to trust and hope that they are secure and that situation will never crop up.
I do use the cloud for some clients, because that's what they were using before I came along and it's what they want. The bottom line is that it's the clients' choice - they're the ones paying the bills.
One big advantage is obviously that they have access to the data as well - and even at the same time - as me.
But that's a disadvantage, too.
"No, that's not a proper VAT invoice - you can't claim the VAT back off that. Get a proper invoice [instructions provided] and I'll reclaim the VAT."
* enters gross amount as net, with no VAT.
* later discovers the client has simply amended the transaction to reclaim the VAT.
And that's just one simple example of what I've seen.
I really didn't have time to write that lot. Ho hum.
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Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software
(I only came here looking for fellow apiarists...)
Well with odoo the software can be in the cloud or on your own server/workstation and you can backup the database files just as you can with any other accounting system, the software is open source it is perennially licensed to everyone.
The same goes with most cloud software you can take a backup and put it on your PC. As Vince said, if you change vendor it becomes useless, if the vendor ceases trading, it becomes useless.
What do you do if you install an update to your desktop app and it breaks the app? I remember this happening with mainstream software in the past, and what happened in every case is that heaven and earth got moved to fix it damn quick.
It hasn't as yet, and the good thing about my software is that the user files are separate to the program, so if the program or my pc crashes, I simply re-install, double click on the user file, and all my work is still there.
Cloud systems do not "exist" in the sense of a physical PC they are distributed over multiple computers, they are designed to allow for individual servers to fail yet for the cloud of servers to continue running.
With such large user bases, the "cloud" apps have rigorous testing, they roll out changes in phases, a few people at a time, indeed form a developer point of view it is much safer because you are much less likely to end up in a situation where thousands of customers have installed an update that breaks their systems. There is a lot more control over the cloud hardware environment in which the software runs, users can't install spyware in the same cloud or have a strange bit of hardware causing a conflict and so on, the system is very robust.
Yes, I see the advantage of server failure, but that doesn't prevent the data being hacked, the vendor ceasing trading. Another disadvantage is if your internet went off for a long period.
Loosing a cloud app, having it fail in any dramatic way has a probability that is very very small, you are going to face much more likely problems such as the person who knows the password dying, or the accountant stealing all the money out the bank account or all your PC's being stolen or a disgruntled employee wiping all the disks, a fire burning all your cash books and prime records, or or.
Other than the PC's being stolen, all those scenarios's still exist with a cloud system. What if a xero employee gets hacked off and causes untold damage to the xero infrastructure. You have to trust the people you employ and hav back up systems in place. That applies to both cloud based and desktop solutions.
"What happens when the cloud platform goes wrong?" is really the same question as "What happens when your PC or Windows goes wrong?" only the probability of it happening is tiny, and the answer is that people fix it quickly.
It maybe me, but I see more danger in a cloud based system than a desk top one. But it's horses for courses, and what floats my boat probably doesn't float yours, but I think Vince has mentioned the one problem with cloud systems is that you lose the inability to access your data if you come away from vendor your data becomes useless.
I've not come across oodoo before, so I will have a look at it anyway.
Lock in to any vendor is a problem.
Vendors ceasing trading is a potential problem.
There is also a problem with Subscription based licensing if you migrate to a different system and the solution there is to print it all (You can be green and print to PDF).
These are issues that also apply to Desktop software as well as Cloud based software.
The issue is not the platform (Desktop or Cloud)
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If wrongness was put on a measurable scale with "slightly out" at one end, the other end would indicate the degree of wrongness is about as wrong as wrong can be.
Based on what you just said, the label at that end would be "Bruce".
"These are issues that also apply to Desktop software as well as Cloud based software."
No.
They.
Don't.
Vendor lock-in doesn't matter, because with desktop software - and note that in a previous post I specifically mentioned perpetually licensed desktop software - you are not locked in because you can switch to something else and - and this is the important bit - continue to run the old software and access that data.
You are only 'locked in' for that purpose and that purpose alone, and that lock-in doesn't cost you a penny, because you have already paid.
And for exactly the same reason, it doesn't matter one iota if the software vendor ceases trading. You already have and have paid for the software - it's not going to suddenly stop working because the vendor is no more. (And if it does, you've bought crap and it's your own fault.)
For some things, cloud solutions are fine. Sharing documents is acceptable, for example, provided there's nothing too sensitive in them - as I've said before, you have to take it on faith that your cloud provider of choice is as secure as they possibly can be. (What I didn't say, but will add now, is that the security is also limited by the practices, knowledge and general competence of anyone else who has access to the data - not just the cloud provider, but also your clients or whoever, who could fall victim to social engineering. With some of my clients, this would be a major concern, no matter how much I drilled the nature of the problem and the warning signs into them.)
Cloud-based backups is another area I have much less of a problem with - because depending on the backup solution you are using, you can probably ensure whatever is automagically backed up to the cloud is heavily encrypted.
But for live, potentially sensitive, important data that you have a legal obligation to keep accessible for n years? The cloud should be shoved where the Sun doesn't shine - and, yes, there's a certain irony in that suggestion, since we don't see the Sun shining when it's hidden behind a cloud cover. I'm sure there's some deep meaningful significance in that, with everyone and his dog trying to create cloud solutions for everything. The weather forecast for computing is increasingly looking like heavy overcast for the foreseeable future, with only very small breaks in the cloud cover for those lucky enough to know how to find them.
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Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software
(I only came here looking for fellow apiarists...)
I think you have misunderstood me ir I have misexpressed myself.
Whether you are in the cloud or on the desktop does not make a difference.
If you have Perpetually licensed software there is no problem if it is subscription based there is a problem.
To illustrate this look at Sage 50 and Odoo
Sage 50 on a subscription model on your desktop would be a problem, you would not be able to access your data if your subscription ceased.
Odoo on a perpetually licence model with hosting in the cloud (or on your own desktop or your own cloud or a different cloud providers cloud) would not be a problem. You would still need to pay for the cloud/server/PC you ran it on but that would apply with a perpetual liced Sage 50 installation as well.
The problem in does not lie with something being in the cloud, on your own server or a desktop, it lies with the licensing model for using the software.
You seem to be implying that something that runs on the cloud can not be run independently by you or licensed perpetually to you which is not the case. Cloud software is no different to any other software can be installed and run in multiple different clouds on your own server or PC. The fact it is software designed to be run in a cloud does not preclude perpetual licensing or self hosting. Conversely being desktop based does not mean you have to have perpetual licensing.
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I'm not aware of any cloud-based software - particularly in this field - that is sold under a perpetual licence and/or set up for customers to install on their own server. (The only things I've found like that previously would be open source / free things - such as CMS systems like WordPress etc, forum software such as phpBB, mailing list software such as MailMan, and so on).
If Odoo is sold for independent installation, rather than hosted by them and paying forevermore to maintain access, then yes, that's a different kettle of fish.
For it to be truly cloud-based, however (so that it's available over the internet, rather than on a server visible only on the inside of your firewall) then the security risks I previously mentioned are still valid; both with the vendor's implementation of security unless you are able and competent to look at the source code and vet it (and fix it if necessary), and with your faith in anyone who has access not to be socially engineered. With something only accessible from inside your firewall, this is much less of an issue.
And if it's only visible inside the firewall, why bother with something that requires a web browser to use in the first place, and the crappy user interface that brings with it? Just use a desktop package that can be networked with a proper user interface designed by the programmer to maximise the potential of the software, rather than maximise the potential of the software subject to the constraints of the web browser.
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Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software
(I only came here looking for fellow apiarists...)
I suppose with Moneysoft they don't want to alienate users from their annual Payroll product so thousands of us have been effectively licensed since the 1990s even though their Office Management and Final Accounts modules are no longer developed.
I regularly download a third, old, Bookkeeping module so I'm using 4 products for the price of 1. Even when they do stop providing downloads, I've got the floppy disks and I can't see them revoking the license before the programs simply cease to work with newer hardware.
. Fortunately I have cover so hopefully they can sort it.
