I would like my client to keep a tighter rein on the accounts and although i have mentioned several times, nothing really comes of it.
Client owns several companies and has a bank account for each company, but purchases goods and pays for using any of the cards regardless of which company the goods are for. There is always missing invoice/receipts. Companies are vat reg and not vat reg. Paying money into the vat reg company bank account, which is income from the non vat reg company, therefore vat hs been paid and now needs to be reclaimed.
Missing cheque books throughtout the year. I dont think they understand the importance of proper accounting. How can i approach and get the message across.
I find that hanging them out of an upstairs window by the ankles is frowned upon so alternatively with some clients you are basically hitting your head repeatedly against a brick wall (Which apparently burns 150 calories per hour).
One approach is to unravel it all yourself and charge the client a premium for the pivelage of the investment of your time.
Whilst that may prove lucrative for yourself there is an underlying issue with the client that if they are treating several businesses as one business then so will HMRC.
You state that they are both VAT registered for one business and not registered for another yet they treat the businesses as one. Therefore it seems that all of the business no matter under what guise should be VAT registered.
What do you mean by VAT has been paid just because it has been paid into the wrong account? Are you sure of that? Surely the receipt is evidence of existence, not correct processing?
If VAT has not been paid does your client fancy losing 20% of all of their receipts (plus interest, penalties and surcharges)... No... then treat the businesses as completely separate to have a chance that they will be judged by HMRC as such.
Worst case scenario, if it is one business falsely seperated then you have a duty to report such under money laundering regulations (tax evasion is a proceed of crime making it money laundering).
The client will argue that hey are totally seperate businesses whilst they seem to be doing everything in their power to convince HMRC otherwise.
kind regards,
Shaun.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
I often tell them I might be able to reduce their VAt/ tax bill if they let me have the relevant paperwork......certainly helps with getting missing receipts. I've even resorted to a spreadsheet of all the missing bits and shown them how much I could've saved them on the VAT, but that was a particularly bad client. I find banging their head against a wall produces better results and uses 175 calories an hour, which is probably why I'm anorexic these days, lol. Plus it saves getting a debt in your own head. Well it's that or not doing this job.
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Joanne
Winner of Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 & 2017
Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.
You should check out answers with reference to the legal position
175 calories! You are obviously putting far more effort and dedication into it than the wimps from the google search that I did which came back with a mere 150 calories per hour.
My boy told me the other day that the world and by extension he moves at 1040 miles per hour. To which he added that he's counting that as excercise!
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
"My boy told me the other day that the world and by extension he moves at 1040 miles per hour. To which he added that he's counting that as excercise!"
I like his thinking.
I have a not entirely unrelated response for when I've been to the local chip shop and anyone comments about my unhealthy meal: "Chips are made of potatoes, so this is one of my five-a-day."
(Although strictly speaking potatoes don't count because they're mainly starch, but I don't mention that and hope they don't realise!)
Back on the topic, though:
I've found over the years that training clients who are on the horrible/disorganised side of the line isn't so much an uphill struggle, as a vertical climb with an elephant strapped to your back.
Clients that are reasonably good to start with can be trained to polish off the odd things they don't do right - but that's because the fact they're good to start with shows they have a clue, and a willingness to do things right.
The messy, disorganised ones tend not to give a damn about the accounts, and consider the need to have their bookkeeping and accounts done a necessary evil, and they begrudge having to pay someone to do it all.
Which, in my experience, means they're also likely to be the crappy payers.
I have a few.
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Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software
(I only came here looking for fellow apiarists...)
The messy, disorganised ones tend not to give a damn about the accounts, and consider the need to have their bookkeeping and accounts done a necessary evil, and they begrudge having to pay someone to do it all.
Which, in my experience, means they're also likely to be the crappy payers.
I have a few.
My messiest client was the crappiest payer, until I told him to naff orrrrf. he now pays up front by weekly standing order but is still as messy. He will never change. He swore he gave me a pile of receipts last June....then decided he must've lost the,.....I got them last week, a huge pile of them. Hopeless!!!
__________________
Joanne
Winner of Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 & 2017
Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.
You should check out answers with reference to the legal position
175 calories! You are obviously putting far more effort and dedication into it than the wimps from the google search that I did which came back with a mere 150 calories per hour.
My boy told me the other day that the world and by extension he moves at 1040 miles per hour. To which he added that he's counting that as excercise!
You need to in this job!!! Corporate Banking is suddenly so appealing....an easier life for more money.
So is sitting on my rowing machine with a good book with that theory
__________________
Joanne
Winner of Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 & 2017
Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.
You should check out answers with reference to the legal position
"My messiest client was the crappiest payer, until I told him to naff orrrrf. he now pays up front by weekly standing order but is still as messy."
Doesn't surprise me.
TBH, I wouldn't allow a client like that to pay by standing order, partly because I've been down this road before, and it's never ended well. The three most notable examples:
In one case, the client stopped the SO thinking I wouldn't notice - and I know that was his thinking because he said it in the office in front of a member of staff who relayed that to me!
In the other two cases, the clients failed to understand (despite having it in writing and having it explained several times) that the standing order wasn't a fixed charge, but a payment on account against what I was charging, calculated on an average charge to hopefully keep the account close to zero.
One therefore didn't appreciate receiving an invoice each month that differed from the SO. If it was higher, he objected on the basis that I'm supposedly charging £x per month - yet if it was lower, he felt I had to refund the difference... immediately, which was ironic.
Another didn't mind the invoices, which were consistently higher than the SO amount - though only marginally at first - because he didn't appreciate that he owed me the difference. He saw them as some kind of summary of what I'd done - and tried to maximise the perceived value of the SO amount by asking for more and more, so the invoiced amounts increased - until review time came, and he objected.
Not something I'll ever do again - especially not for a poor payer.
One of my current poor payers fairly regularly says they'd prefer to pay me by DD, because it would be so much easier if I just took my fee each month, it would save them having to remember, etc. With that in mind, I finally decided to give Go Cardless a look recently; I signed up, and that client was the first one I added.
As yet, the client still hasn't filled in the DD details.
Funny that - anyone would think my not being set up for DDs was an excuse rather than a genuine reason. I'm off to spend a few hours at their office today - I wonder how they'll explain that one away. :)
(Another that I added to Go Cardless - also a slow payer - said "I saw your Go Cardless request. I rejected it." At least he just stated a basic fact, and didn't make up any excuses!)
__________________
Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software
(I only came here looking for fellow apiarists...)
"My messiest client was the crappiest payer, until I told him to naff orrrrf. he now pays up front by weekly standing order but is still as messy."
Doesn't surprise me.
TBH, I wouldn't allow a client like that to pay by standing order, partly because I've been down this road before, and it's never ended well. The three most notable examples:
In one case, the client stopped the SO thinking I wouldn't notice - and I know that was his thinking because he said it in the office in front of a member of staff who relayed that to me!
In the other two cases, the clients failed to understand (despite having it in writing and having it explained several times) that the standing order wasn't a fixed charge, but a payment on account against what I was charging, calculated on an average charge to hopefully keep the account close to zero.
One therefore didn't appreciate receiving an invoice each month that differed from the SO. If it was higher, he objected on the basis that I'm supposedly charging £x per month - yet if it was lower, he felt I had to refund the difference... immediately, which was ironic.
Another didn't mind the invoices, which were consistently higher than the SO amount - though only marginally at first - because he didn't appreciate that he owed me the difference. He saw them as some kind of summary of what I'd done - and tried to maximise the perceived value of the SO amount by asking for more and more, so the invoiced amounts increased - until review time came, and he objected.
Not something I'll ever do again - especially not for a poor payer.
One of my current poor payers fairly regularly says they'd prefer to pay me by DD, because it would be so much easier if I just took my fee each month, it would save them having to remember, etc. With that in mind, I finally decided to give Go Cardless a look recently; I signed up, and that client was the first one I added.
As yet, the client still hasn't filled in the DD details.
Funny that - anyone would think my not being set up for DDs was an excuse rather than a genuine reason. I'm off to spend a few hours at their office today - I wonder how they'll explain that one away. :)
(Another that I added to Go Cardless - also a slow payer - said "I saw your Go Cardless request. I rejected it." At least he just stated a basic fact, and didn't make up any excuses!)
This one is absolutely under NO illusions that it isnt a fixed charge. He pays me the standing order, which I check Ive received (after the available time for a standing order 'recall' timeslot by his Bank) - then I work x hours until its exhausted. No more, no less - he knows each week where he stands! If he has anything urgent and the fund has been exhausted then he would need to pay me extra beforehand by direct Bank Faster payments transfer or wait until the following week. Tough! He might be dis-organised but he absolutely gets that.....I take no prisoners when Im absolutely riled and in the mood for a row - which is exactly what happened with him. Its either that or dump him - well actually I did dump him, increased his fees and he still came back for more. (I play nice most of the time, although Im very close to that edge at the mo, so anyone could get it today!). Direct Debits can be cancelled just as much and as easily as standing orders and indeed (if you know the right people and I do!!) - any sort of card transaction, although the latter is probably the less likely to be cancelled given most people dont know the right people!
Dont you just love this job?! Im seriously thinking of going back to Corporate Finance - pays more and frankly much less hassle!
-- Edited by Cheshire on Wednesday 27th of May 2015 10:25:30 AM
__________________
Joanne
Winner of Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 & 2017
Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.
You should check out answers with reference to the legal position
Its either that or dump him - well actually I did dump him, increased his fees and he still came back for more. (I play nice most of the time, although Im very close to that edge at the mo, so anyone could get it today!).
Dont you just love this job?! Im seriously thinking of going back to Corporate Finance - pays more and frankly much less hassle!
-- Edited by Cheshire on Wednesday 27th of May 2015 10:25:30 AM
Oooops, wish I'd read this before opposing you in another thread - it may well be me that gets it!!
Seriously, I hope your day improves.
__________________
John
Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.
Corporate Banking is suddenly so appealing....an easier life for more money.
Well, we're certainly not on this side of the fence for the money Jo!
If you're going back though be quick as I found that all of the guys that I used to work with have gone and the bits of kids who replaced them only want to hire others of a similar age to themselves.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Its either that or dump him - well actually I did dump him, increased his fees and he still came back for more. (I play nice most of the time, although Im very close to that edge at the mo, so anyone could get it today!).
Dont you just love this job?! Im seriously thinking of going back to Corporate Finance - pays more and frankly much less hassle!
-- Edited by Cheshire on Wednesday 27th of May 2015 10:25:30 AM
Oooops, wish I'd read this before opposing you in another thread - it may well be me that gets it!!
Seriously, I hope your day improves.
Haha - no worries. I dont batter friends. I dont even batter this client anymore! The one who has just got it is an Accountant who is clearly trying to undermine me with my client - and failing badly! Ive already proved him wrong 3 times now and after trying to make snide comments this morning he is probably a bit red faced now! He might even find he loses his client! I have a great relationship with all my other Accountants, so this one is the fly in the ointment!
__________________
Joanne
Winner of Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 & 2017
Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.
You should check out answers with reference to the legal position
Corporate Banking is suddenly so appealing....an easier life for more money.
Well, we're certainly not on this side of the fence for the money Jo!
If you're going back though be quick as I found that all of the guys that I used to work with have gone and the bits of kids who replaced them only want to hire others of a similar age to themselves.
I had a headhunter call yesterday.
__________________
Joanne
Winner of Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 & 2017
Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.
You should check out answers with reference to the legal position
has to be a damn site better than being shown zero respect whilst sweating blood to chase pennies from those who feel that actually paying for your time is a lifestyle choice rather than an obligation.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
This one is absolutely under NO illusions that it isnt a fixed charge. He pays me the standing order, which I check Ive received (after the available time for a standing order 'recall' timeslot by his Bank) - then I work x hours until its exhausted. No more, no less [...]
Nice! You've just made me look mild, which is no mean feat!
"Its either that or dump him - well actually I did dump him, increased his fees and he still came back for more."
Heh. The client that supposedly wants to pay me by DD is one I dumped several years ago for being a crappy payer, but came back after all those intervening years - with promises of being better. And they were, at first - but it's now a little over a year later again, and they've gradually slipped into old habits.
(Incidentally, I didn't get an answer to the puzzler of why they haven't filled in the DD details despite saying that's how they want to pay - because the people responsible weren't there, only office staff.)
"Direct Debits can be cancelled just as much and as easily as standing orders"
Of course they can - that's not why I've set up with Go Cardless; the point is to put the collecting of my fees in my hands (subject to cancellations); I invoice £x, and a month or so later I instruct Go Cardless to collect £x by DD. If the client cancells the DD, it'll be brought to my attention when Go Cardless subsequently emails me the collections report.
(Actual sequence may vary from one person to the next)
I'm ignoring the SO alternative because of the problems I've had in the past.
"Dont you just love this job?!"
Not really. It was never what I intended to be doing - things just happened this way, and I've spent so much time on this rubbish that I've never been able to spend enough time on the programming side.
"Im seriously thinking of going back to Corporate Finance - pays more and frankly much less hassle!"
I do sometimes consider buying the local paper and looking at job ads. A straight 9-5, with a sensible salary, paid at the end of the month (instead of 30 days later if I'm lucky) sometimes appeals.
Then I remember that I don't like the idea of having to be somewhere regularly at 9:00am!
__________________
Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software
(I only came here looking for fellow apiarists...)
has to be a damn site better than being shown zero respect whilst sweating blood to chase pennies from those who feel that actually paying for your time is a lifestyle choice rather than an obligation.
Pondering
__________________
Joanne
Winner of Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 & 2017
Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.
You should check out answers with reference to the legal position
This one is absolutely under NO illusions that it isnt a fixed charge. He pays me the standing order, which I check Ive received (after the available time for a standing order 'recall' timeslot by his Bank) - then I work x hours until its exhausted. No more, no less [...]
Nice! You've just made me look mild, which is no mean feat!
"Its either that or dump him - well actually I did dump him, increased his fees and he still came back for more."
Heh. The client that supposedly wants to pay me by DD is one I dumped several years ago for being a crappy payer, but came back after all those intervening years - with promises of being better. And they were, at first - but it's now a little over a year later again, and they've gradually slipped into old habits.
(Incidentally, I didn't get an answer to the puzzler of why they haven't filled in the DD details despite saying that's how they want to pay - because the people responsible weren't there, only office staff.)
"Direct Debits can be cancelled just as much and as easily as standing orders"
Of course they can - that's not why I've set up with Go Cardless; the point is to put the collecting of my fees in my hands (subject to cancellations); I invoice £x, and a month or so later I instruct Go Cardless to collect £x by DD. If the client cancells the DD, it'll be brought to my attention when Go Cardless subsequently emails me the collections report.
(Actual sequence may vary from one person to the next)
I'm ignoring the SO alternative because of the problems I've had in the past.
"Dont you just love this job?!"
Not really. It was never what I intended to be doing - things just happened this way, and I've spent so much time on this rubbish that I've never been able to spend enough time on the programming side.
"Im seriously thinking of going back to Corporate Finance - pays more and frankly much less hassle!"
I do sometimes consider buying the local paper and looking at job ads. A straight 9-5, with a sensible salary, paid at the end of the month (instead of 30 days later if I'm lucky) sometimes appeals.
Then I remember that I don't like the idea of having to be somewhere regularly at 9:00am!
Just typed an answer and lost it.....
__________________
Joanne
Winner of Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 & 2017
Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.
You should check out answers with reference to the legal position
VinceH wrote:"Im seriously thinking of going back to Corporate Finance - pays more and frankly much less hassle!"
I do sometimes consider buying the local paper and looking at job ads. A straight 9-5, with a sensible salary, paid at the end of the month (instead of 30 days later if I'm lucky) sometimes appeals.
Then I remember that I don't like the idea of having to be somewhere regularly at 9:00am!
Well, that wouldn't be the job that Jo's being headhunted for!
Think that my average day at the bank was eight till eight but there were many times when it was nearer midnight before I headed home and occassionally you didn't get to go home at all.
That said those are still shorter hours for a lot more money that you knew would be paid than I'm on now.
The above said, whilst we are not always appreciated for our efforts I feel that we make a real positive difference to the companies that we look after where in corporate you always feel like a small cog in a large machine.
Also as you note there is a lot to be said for being able to set your own hours which you cannot do on the corporate side of the fence.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
