I'm seeing a lot of mixed messages and speculation about Sage One currently that I wanted to iron out with facts from a business perspective. So ill outline Sage One and answer any questions you may have
If you are a member of Sage Accountant/Bookkeeper division you get all the online services as part of you membership at no extra charge. If you are not a Sage member you can become and Sage One Online member for £1 a month and get all the online software.
You get with this
Sage One Accountant Edition - Client manager for your Sage One customers
50 free for life copies of Sage One Cashbook for life (£1 a month for life with Bank Feeds)
10 free until March 2016 copies of Sage One Payroll 5 employee then £5pm there after (includes auto enrolment module)
20% commission per client per month
24/7 telephone support
Sage Impact - a launch platform into your Sage Accounting Apps
Sage Match - an accounting app listing your company online advertising to potential clients looking for a bookkeeper (live in September)
Sage Value - an accounting app that you can use to create proposals and sent them through to potential clients (live in September)
Sage Final Accounts Online - produce sole trader, partnership and FRSEE15 compliant sets of accounts (free when TB is sent from Sage One)
Sage Personal Tax Online - Coming Jan 2016 (estimated)
Sage Corporation Tax Online - Coming Jan 2016 (estimated)
This is the core product model for accountants and bookkeepers. Think of it like your mobile or sky package. We will be releasing more but these will be optional add ons if we make them chargeable like Sage View when its released.
More accounting apps coming soon like Sage View and a new product for Small to medium business called Sage Live (details will come out soon)
So as you can see we have been very busy. No provider in the market can offer Online, Desktop, Hybrid to its customers.
Sage One is a micro to small business solution.
Cashbook is £5 RRP but you get 50 free without feeds, £1pm with and once you have used first 50 the next ones with only be £2pm (billed to you not client, client billing would be £5RRP)
Sage One Accounting has - multi user free, mobile app free, departments, batch entries, 20 reports, custom invoice templates, bank feeds, quotes, foreign trader, and more for £10pm
The older programme Sage One Accounts has been discontinued due to poor feedback so we listened and Accounting is far superior.
Sage One Payroll 5,10,15 employee for 5,10,15 £ a month corresponding. Includes Auto Enrolment module and fully RTI compliant
Any questions let me know, we have a field of experts ready to meet you today, let me know and we can get them out to see you. I have over 60 Bookkeepers in my region (North East) using Sage One now and more added every week. we have excellent relationships with ICB IAB also.
-- Edited by Stevejonesone on Tuesday 25th of August 2015 10:14:03 AM
many thanks for the comprehensive run down of your product.
I will ensure in future posts that it is emphasised that the product now available is not the same as the one featured in the Aweb software satisfaction survey.
The one line that I found a disappointing statement about the direction of the industry was :
"No provider in the market can offer Online, Desktop, Hybrid to its customers".
I disagree with the word "can" and would perhaps substitute "wants to" as desktop is not seen by those going down the cloud route as the future.
I see the issue's that you will face as being twofold
1) there are many who want the security of a desktop solution and would not put data in the cloud. I personally was quite horrified by the T&C linked in the other thread. I appreciate your explanation about it being about whose systems you piggy back on so somewhat out of your control. However, from the customers perspective thats really not our problem. Our problem is the security and accessibility of our data.
That is no reflection on the good intentions of Sage but rather seeing a loophole in it that it is within our power to avoid. Namely, if our data is on our desktops protected by our own layers of security then there is no risk that it will be transferred outside the EEA so exposing ourselves to potential breach of ICO regulations.
2) Sage's own track record of moving the goal posts once market share has been achieved. I'm thinking here of the move years ago to pay per client (often referred to as the Sage Client Tax) with the desktop solution which Intuit first capitalised on but is now seemingly throwing away as they too focus upon the cloud.
Don't get me wrong, market skimming is a key interim strategy of a sound business model. I am just saying that people have long memories when it comes to major changes in necessary annual expenditure so naturally they will approach such opening offers with a degree of professional scepticism and you may suffer somewhat because of that.
Just as a final aside, I would say that as noted by Kris the other day, there are actually as many accountants who are members of this site as ICB and IAB members. We have many AAT, ACCA, ICAEW, CIMA, ICAS, AIA and IFA members (don't think that we have any CAI or CIPFA but I could be wrong).
I do genuinely wish you the very best for those looking for a cloud based solution as it's nice to see that Sage listened to the issues raised by the Aweb survey. Hoping to see you much higher on the satisfaction charts next year on the back of that.
kindest regards,
Shaun.
p.s. All of the above is intended constructively.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Thank you for your feedback, all feedback both positive and negative is taken on board its how we learn, evolve and improve. Just to touch on your points.
"feedback is the breakfast of champions"
With the point on "wants to", we have a 30 year legacy base of desktop clients and re affirming your point that customers love Sage 50 and desktop based products, will never change and we will never force them to. There are ways we can enhance the experience and we have with Sage Drive turning Sage 50 into a Hybrid for mobility access and live access for accountants and bookkeepers. Also with Bank feeds going into the next version of 50 this is another enhancement. So companies like VT, Quickbooks, who also have heavy desktop business they will be finding the same its not a mass exodus to cloud its a journey, a transition, but its not for everyone so we have to manage everyone's needs. So to your point do those companies not want to enhance their existing desktop clients experience with these enhancements in technology? Maybe, but they are not so we are the only provider that gives true client choice. We have set the bar again showing these technologies can be used with desktop software lets see if they evolve into Cloud, Hybrid and desktop.
On point one, the T&Cs are very similar across all cloud providers, we use UK based servers. We judge security with cloud, but we are quite happy to log into a online bank accounts, upload photos of our family's to facebook, stream music, movies, tv, read newspapers, book taxi's, buy books, buy goods all using smart phones. Do you read every T&Cs for data storage and usage for every one of these? we use these services because they are becoming the norm. If their is a issue with data it falls on us not the client as they are not the ones storing it. With accessing the data, as log as the access is being paid for the data is accessible with the security set by the client. All data is stored in full accordance with data protection and fully compliant to EU data law, or we could not sell the product.
On point 2, look at other markets with subscription models. Any enhancements are optional add ons. We have built a core set of products for the end user. If any enhancements are made they could be changeable optional add ons. Sky have core channels, but sky sports and movies are optional add ons. Mobile have set minutes, data and text if you want picture messages or calls abroad they are optional add ons. We have Sage One Cashbook with bank feeds as £1 a month optional add on, we have Sage One Accounting for £10pm (inc bank feeds) we may release optional add ons. If anything we have reduced the prices. Sage One extra which is now Accounting has dropped from £20 to £10, Cashbook we give accountants and bookkeepers cheaper rates then RRP.
Apologies I wasn't aware that many different members were part of this forum, im speaking at an ICB, AIA events in September as a guest speaker i love taking this message to everyone. I have Accountants and Bookkeepers from all members using Sage One from the above, including the ICAEW medium partner of the year Duncan Toplis as a Gold partner.
Ive heard it over and over and it makes my job so refreshing, "wow Sage have really stepped up", "never heard Sage say free so many times", "this is the most refreshing Sage meeting ive ever had"
hope this helps answer your points. The best way to test it is to try it. See a different side of Sage.
-- Edited by Stevejonesone on Tuesday 25th of August 2015 06:31:04 PM
-- Edited by Stevejonesone on Tuesday 25th of August 2015 06:40:43 PM
-- Edited by Stevejonesone on Tuesday 25th of August 2015 06:41:26 PM
I think that you'll find ex bankers such as Joanne (Cheshire) and myself on here are people who do read the T&C's. I would not dream to make purchases from a smart phone as well aware of the security limitations. I do not have a Facebook (or twitter) account. But I do have a Linkedin one which is a similar sort of thing (although without all of the telling everyone when you go to the toilet, what you had for lunch, smiley faces and assuming other people are at all interested in your photohraphs).
Basically though coming from a background where one is extremely security conscious in relation to client data I'm sure that you understand why people such as myself worry about such things.
Absolutely no need for appologies over any misunderstanding of the site membership, the site name can be a little misleading and you will find many (myself included) referring to it as BKN rather than using the word bookkeeper.
The great thing about this site is that it's one of the few places where you will find people of all of the major professional bodies talking as equals. Sometimes over on Aweb it can feel a little like Christians wandering into the colluseum if you're not from the right club or accidentally say the wrong thing. Whereas we tend to be more accomodating no matter where someone is along their path.
This site has achieved hit rates of a little over a million hits a month (we dipped a little when the ICB released their site with an almost identical name but believe that we have now made up the lost ground again). I know thats not great hit rate compared to some of the major sites out there but it's not shoddy... Really need more of our readers to start posting though.
We like to ensure that we remain unbiased and truly independant so nobody who is selling a product will get a completely easy ride but a good robust fact based defence of one's product scores many more brownie points with the readership than a straight unchallenged sales pitch.
Personal view is that I think that this thread will work well for your sales.
kindest regards,
Shaun.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
With the point on "wants to", we have a 30 year legacy base of desktop clients and re affirming your point that customers love Sage 50 and desktop based products, will never change and we will never force them to. There are ways we can enhance the experience and we have with Sage Drive turning Sage 50 into a Hybrid for mobility access and live access for accountants and bookkeepers. Also with Bank feeds going into the next version of 50 this is another enhancement. So companies like VT, Quickbooks, who also have heavy desktop business they will be finding the same its not a mass exodus to cloud its a journey, a transition, but its not for everyone so we have to manage everyone's needs.
VT does not operate "in the cloud" nor does it need to. I use sage 50 (desktop) at a client and VT in my every day use, and I have to say that VT wins hands down on many features.
On point one, the T&Cs are very similar across all cloud providers, we use UK based servers. We judge security with cloud, but we are quite happy to log into a online bank accounts, upload photos of our family's to facebook, stream music, movies, tv, read newspapers, book taxi's, buy books, buy goods all using smart phones. Do you read every T&Cs for data storage and usage for every one of these? we use these services because they are becoming the norm. If their is a issue with data it falls on us not the client as they are not the ones storing it.
So, if there's a security hack on the server and my client's details are stolen are you saying ICO will come after Sage and not me?
With accessing the data, as long as the access is being paid for the data is accessible with the security set by the client.
And that's one of the two main reasons I'm reluctant to use the cloud. If I switch to a different provider, my desktop software will still be accessible to print reports, extract previous years data etc. If I move to different cloud software I no longer have access to my data.
On point 2, look at other markets with subscription models. Any enhancements are optional add ons. We have built a core set of products for the end user. If any enhancements are made they could be changeable optional add ons. Sky have core channels, but sky sports and movies are optional add ons. Mobile have set minutes, data and text if you want picture messages or calls abroad they are optional add ons. We have Sage One Cashbook with bank feeds as £1 a month optional add on, we have Sage One Accounting for £10pm (inc bank feeds) we may release optional add ons. If anything we have reduced the prices. Sage One extra which is now Accounting has dropped from £20 to £10, Cashbook we give accountants and bookkeepers cheaper rates then RRP.
Yes, it's certainly a good thing that Sage are more competitive with their cloud offering, but are we seeing similar reductions for the desktop versions?
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John
Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.
Yes, it's certainly a good thing that Sage are more competitive with their cloud offering, but are we seeing similar reductions for the desktop versions?
Hi John,
I think that the Intuit issue over them winding down Quickbooks desktop has us all spooked but, a first for me here coming to the defence of Sage saying as their products are banned from my practice until they remove the client tax from their desktop offering, but I don't think in the case of Sage there is any hint of replacing Sage 50 with Sage one... But I do expect them to get some flack on the back of Intuits complete balls up over totally misreading their loyal client base.
I'm with you on VT and data accessibility post termination of relationship.
The approach that I have with my business is that any client is free to leave if they think that anyone else can look after them better. So long as their fee's are up to date I don't try to tie anyone in and because of that they stay. Even happy to give them their data although neither legally or professionally do I don't have to give them that (only a trial balance, a last set of full accounts and their tax stuff).
Shouldn't software providers have the same level of confidence over their own products and services?
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
"but I don't think in the case of Sage there is any hint of replacing Sage 50 with Sage one..."
That'll be because Sage seem to be trying to push users of their desktop software onto a subscription model - rather than the old, preferable perpetual licence. At the end of the day, they don't need to switch to the Cloud model if they can push users onto a 'pay again and again' subscription model for desktop software.
This is relevant to one of the points John made above:
Quoting Steve: "With accessing the data, as long as the access is being paid for the data is accessible with the security set by the client."
"And that's one of the two main reasons I'm reluctant to use the cloud. If I switch to a different provider, my desktop software will still be accessible to print reports, extract previous years data etc. If I move to different cloud software I no longer have access to my data."
Because last September, I put this question to the Sage Twitter person:
@VinceMH - Oi @sageuk A question about your new subscription options. If someone subscribes and uses it then stops, how do they access historical data?
@VinceMH - @sageuk e.g. if they use your stuff for a couple of years, then decide to move to something else from that point.
I didn't get a response the first time, so had to ask again a few days later, but the response I got came from the @AskSageUKI account and was:
@AskSageUKI - @VinceMH Hi, if the subscription is cancelled the data wouldn't be accessible. If cancelling subscription they should export or print data.
I replied:
@VinceMH - @askSageUKI 2-300 invoices/month, over a couple of years would be wasteful of paper, so next question is on the subject of exporting...
@VinceMH - @askSageUKI Is there now a *meaningful* export option? I recovered data by exporting via reports in the past, but it needed some tweaking...
@VinceMH - @askSageUKI ...and that was to re-import the data *back into Sage itself*.
The point I was making there is that exporting data is a bit meaningless - when you import it into something else (or even back into Sage itself) the data needs work to make it meaningful again. You'd have to do this work in the new package to make the resulting reports match what was in Sage before. I got a reply...
@askSageUKI - @VinceMH the only way to export the info is to save the report as a .CSV. You can then make any necessary adjustments.
Gee, thanks, Sage, for telling me what I already know, having just commented on that! As I then pointed out...
@VinceMH - @askSageUKI Right... As I said, I once had to export data in this way just to re-import it into Sage. Colour me not impressed, then.
@VinceMH - @askSageUKI What you *should* do after a lapsed subscription is make the software/daya *READ ONLY* so it can still be meaninfully accessed.
In other words, fine - limit people's ability to input new data if the subscription is ended, but allow them to be able to ACCESS their data without having to recreate their work in another package.
Otherwise, it is as I keep calling it: Data as a protection racket.
@askSageUKI - @VinceMH Thanks, I really appreciate your feedback. I will add this to our #WishList
What you can do, of course, is 'print' everything in the form of exporting every report to PDF and keeping those - but drilling into data in the accounts package is a darned site more practical than hunting through a shed load of PDFs when you're talking about large databases.
(The same problem is true of cloud cuckoo land accounts packages.)
__________________
Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software
(I only came here looking for fellow apiarists...)
Personal view is that I think that this thread will work well for your sales.
Or maybe not...
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
The point of this post was not to help sales it was to iron out past thoughts versus todays facts on the product, and to show how much the product and applications have evolved from its first rendition 18 months ago not just for clients but for accountants too.
I'm hearing the big issue which will be the same across all providers is data access, if its desktop and its on your machine you have access to it no matter what.
Just to drill into the features of Accountant Edition to see if this helps this?
Accountant Edition is a list of all your clients using Sage One and you have live access the them. You can set the billing to go to the client or come to you.
Client billing - you can detach the client from your list if you choose and the client can detach from you if they choose, lets say if they move to another accountant and attach to their Account Edition. So the client is responsible for the payments. If they cancel the DD and need a report the would have to pay £5 or £10 for 1 month access and then cancel the DD again as there is no contract. Like Netflix or spotify.Similar to any subscription model in many markets.
Accountant billing - you have the ability to block a clients access if they stop paying you to Sage One. You can still access the data they cant until you release them. If you detach them, the client gets 30 days grace before they would have to put in the DD details in order to continue to use it.
I'm not as close to desktop as I am Online but as far as I have seen, the desktop products have been releasing new features and enhancements. Like Bank feeds in the next version. My question back is if you feel you are paying to much for desktop and not getting the value your paying are you or the clients on the right product and reviewed this.
If you watch our CEO keynote speech www.sage.com/sage-summit/videos-archived/7_28_the-sage-keynote from Sage Summit, this doesn't seem like a pitch that will be phasing away from desktop. We are hear to offer choice of all platforms and let the market decide.
Yes, it's certainly a good thing that Sage are more competitive with their cloud offering, but are we seeing similar reductions for the desktop versions?
Hi John,
I think that the Intuit issue over them winding down Quickbooks desktop has us all spooked but, a first for me here coming to the defence of Sage saying as their products are banned from my practice until they remove the client tax from their desktop offering, but I don't think in the case of Sage there is any hint of replacing Sage 50 with Sage one... But I do expect them to get some flack on the back of Intuits complete balls up over totally misreading their loyal client base.
Not sure if you misunderstood my question here Shaun. Steve was boasting that the Sage One accounting had been reduced from £20 to £10. What I meant was will we see the desktop versions come down in price as well?
-- Edited by Leger on Thursday 27th of August 2015 10:16:09 PM
__________________
John
Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.
@VinceMH - @askSageUKI What you *should* do after a lapsed subscription is make the software/daya *READ ONLY* so it can still be meaninfully accessed.
In other words, fine - limit people's ability to input new data if the subscription is ended, but allow them to be able to ACCESS their data without having to recreate their work in another package.
Otherwise, it is as I keep calling it: Data as a protection racket.
Absolutely agree with you. You are supposed to keep records for 7 years, so likewise the data should be available for the same period, read only as you say.
__________________
John
Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.
Quite. And bringing it from SaaS/DaaPR back to Sage One - and any cloud-based package - the same problem exists in spades*. This is a big factor in why I just can't accept cloud cuckoo land as a sane approach to accounts.
* It's at least understandable with cloud: There is an ongoing cost in maintaining customer data, and access thereto, when it's stored in your data centre (or a data centre provided by a third party and for which you are paying). However, that problem simply doesn't exist when you are talking about software running on the customer's own hardware, so trying to make people pay to continue to access data stored in software running on their own hardware, to me, is just appalling.
__________________
Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software
(I only came here looking for fellow apiarists...)
