Sounds good.

My flags firmly in the ACCA camp ubt as you identify a complete nightmare lies in regulation 8.

When I first went down the ACCA path it was a choice between that and CIMA and I noted at the time that whilst ACCA included the entirety of the CIMA syllabus, such was not true the other way around.

In hindsight, some of the management accounting elements at the higher levels (ACCA papers P3, P4 and P5) are not covered as extensively with ACCA as they are with CIMA. At the time of deciding though I was simply going off lists of elements rather than the level of study for each element.



By the way, I sympathise completely with your situiation as its one that I've hit myself. Have you hit the feeling yet that you just want to hold a recruitment agent under water until the bubbles stop! If I hear one more time that I am too qualified for a position there is going to be blood!... Knew that there was some reason why they always want to meet over skype nowadays!!!

Hi John,

osunds as though you are looking at the same route as Rob (Robh).

Personally I would do the first nine ACCA papers which give you your grounding. You could then use that to get MAAT status (you would need to step down your ACCA student membership) and combined with prior experience you should be able to become a MIP. So, MAAT MIP but trained by the ACCA.

If you do paper F6 last you should be able to do all of the ATT papers very quickly.

For CPD you could then do the CIMA qualification (after ATT) which you would be able to miss quite a few modules from due to ACCA and AAT exemptions.

You end up with a quality qualifiction based on starting with the very best training (which unfoortunately you wouldn't be able to practice under) and you can support yourself once you get to MAAT MIP by working as an SME accountant.

The flaw in this cunning plan is the bit where you are doing ACCA you could not work beyond trial balance and the first nine will be a very intensive three years of your life.

Then again, if you were able to work for minimum wage in training you should be able to make more than that doing basic bookkeeping whilst you train.

Once past the ACCA leg of the plan everything else should slot into place very quickly.

The issue point is where you need to give up ACCA... Its really difficult to do as you sweated blood to pass those first nine and to practice under anyone elses flag will not sit right with you.

I know from my own experience that I joined the IFA (whilst they were still the IFA rather than linked to the Australian institute) but I still only worked to trial balance as I could not bring myself to abandon the ACCA qualification. Eventually, helped along by the IFA amalgamation I abandoned that idea.

If you were still considering IFA, consider AIA instead as they at least get a mewntion in the annual report on key facts and trends in accountancy.

www.frc.org.uk/Our-Work/Publications/Professional-Oversight/Key-Facts-and-Trends-in-the-Accountancy-Profes-%281%29.pdf

I think that the directors of the bookkeeping qualifications possibly have wet dreams about the student numbers for the accountancy qualifications (especially ACCA)... And possibly nightmares about the fact that every ACCA student and member is potentially a bookkeeper until they have their own practice certificate (in reality a lot of them work in industry and consultancy).

I remember when I was doing the ACCA qualification that at each sitting the number of people taking each paper diminished going from two huge aircraft hanger type halls in Birmingham alone for the sitting of paper 1.1 (now F3) to one hall hosting several papers and variants on those papers at the same time.

Especially noticable was that for paper 1.1 the carpark was full of clapped out metro's and fiesta's but by P7 such had transformed to newish mercs, beemers and even the odd Porsche or two.

Anyway, back to the point at hand.

My money ACCA (whilst offering restricted services to supprt yourself) to AAT + ATT (offring a full accounting service) and work towards CIMA (using it as CPD) making full use of available exemptions whilst practicing under MAAT.

I wouldn't be at all happy that I wasn't practicing under ACCA but if that routes deemed impossible then at least there's a viable alternative.

Thats just my thoughts and whatever road you choose is of course your own decision but hope that it has made you think about some wider alternatives.

kindest regards,

Shaun.

p.s. tut, frosted glass shop front. Don't you know that all the best accountants can be found above the shops. Lol, you can always spot the accountants as they are the one's walking down the highstreet looking at whose on the first floor!

No idea John but I know that they do keep catching people as the list of expulsions are published in AB magazine each month and the more interesting one's also seem to appear in PQ.

These people make no mention of any affiliation with the ACCA but they are still caught. There may be an element of other accountants reporting competitors if they perhaps take a client due to offering lower fee's (even if the person didn't realise that they were taking another practices client). Also there are peoples own websites that offer a whole list of services.

Sure that they have many other ways of catching people who are doing what they should not which of course if found guilty will see them suspended or expelled, charged at least £800 for the privellage and once one is thrown out of one body the other professional bodies don't want to know you.

I certainly would not advise anyone to risk it no matter how frustrating it may be to see those with a tiny fraction of the study time and experience requirement offering a full accounting service.

Thats nothing against those with other qualifications who have also worked hard for their bits of paper. It's just an observation on how unfair the playing field is for those with top end qualifications that are only allowed to work to the actual definition of a bookkeepers (up to trial balance) where those with bookkeeping qualifications suffer no resptrictions on their services (except Audit and insolvency which are protected in statute).

Never mind the playing field being uneven. It feels at times a little like someone built it on a hillside!

I would avoid the BA and exemptions route.

You would really struggle with the final 5 if you took the offered exemptions. Better to get your BA from Oxford brooks after the first nine papers (you actually have to take them rather than claim exemptions to be able to take the degree).

Wehn I first went down the ACCA path before embarcing on it I did the intensive open university certificte in accounting (B680, it's no longer offered). There were about twenty in my group of which a fair number passed the bulk of which went on to do ACCA (My decision had already been made by an agreement with Barclays that such was the path that I would take. Others decided on the path for different reasons... Non of us had any perception about regulation 8 when we first signed up. Thank goodness for this site now helping people to make informed decisions!).

The others took the exemptions that ACCA offered to their first three papers for those who held B680 (the OU course was basically AAT in a year). I chose to do the first three even though I had exemptions for them (ACCA exemptions come in the form of a guaranteed pass. You pay for the exam but do not have to sit it).

The others for the most part gave up after one paper. A few managed two papers. The issue was that you have to get used to the way that the ACCA asks questions. Generally there is as much in a question written between the lines as on the paper. The questions are in the form of short scenario's and you are really attempting to get insode the mind of the business owner to see their motivations and look for what they are not telling you or potentially not telling you.

The BA will take you as long as the first nine, it would damage your prospects for the next five, joining by exemption is not the same as passes (your certificate says for each module whether you passed or were given an exemption).

I personally would not advise that option... Plus as I say, if you want a BSc you can get one from a good quality uni as part of the ACCA qualification for minimal additional expenditure.

Can't remember but it was minimal. We are talking hundreds, not thousands.

The idea is that the first nine ACCA papers are at BSc level (actually, the first three are more A level but I digress) so you have effectively already done the degree to get that far and then the final step is to present a thesis. If you cannot find a suitably qualified person to present to and to review your thesis then Kaplan (I believe) offer a service for helping you through that part (at a cost).

The thesis needs to be on one of the subjects from their list of around twenty options or if you can justify its relevance a subject of your own choosing. I did all of the leg work for it, even got as far as doing the presentation but I couldn't find the time to follow it though.

My thesis was not on their list but I had it approved up front. It was (bit of a mouthful)

"An investigation into the effects of globalisation on the united kingdom commercial banking sector with a review of the sustainability of current global cost reduction policies".

When you have passed the final five there is also the option to go on to do an MSc in applied accountancy which I must admit that if I had the time that is more appealing to me than the BSc as nowadays people stacking shelves in Tesco's need to have a degree where a masters does still carry considerably more weight. Having the letters ACCA after your name says more I feel than BA or BSc... Of course if you have both then bonus.

If I had the time my goal would be FCCA, MSc, CTA (I think that the sequence that I just jotted those down in speaks volumes). But, considering the I am already in my 50's I'll be quite happy just to get to FCCA.

abacus12345 wrote:

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 The course also offers a sandwich year in an accountancy surrounding, probably 12 months spent photocopying lol.

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A very interesting thread there you guys!  Its a sad world that in certain industries and professions that age is seen as a drawback and not as an advantage - people who have worked in other industries before coming to the ACCA (etc) table often bring more in terms of wider experience that can be extremely useful to the world of Accountancy.  Suitably qualified has to mean being a good all rounder as well has having passed the exams - but we have talked about that on many occasions before (actually at both ends of the spectrum where often no common sense exists!) and changing the minds of those looking for young blood would be a mammoth task.   These things do sometimes have a habit of working their way back round when there is a skills shortage and some employers see that people of a certain age are actaully worth investing in.

Only thing possibly of value, although not what you want to hear,  that I could add for John is that for the sandwich course, generally you would need to find your own employer, many of whom offer these sandwich years as a way of attracting staff once they have finished their course.  So, despite the course offering such, its the same issue that you will have as you have now.    That said I do know of someone who had the same issue with Law and ended up doing the courses she wanted in the end as a sort of hobby/to prove she could as she had not been to Uni as a youngster.  She is progressing very well now - sometimes you just never know!

Hi John,

yes... but would you trust the rules not to change between surrender and reinstatement?

Remeber a couple of years back when people did ACCA to become ACA but then that route has been closed (it was a really expensive route as to practice under ACA you had to hold two practice certificates and two different PII's).

Assuming that nothing chaged to rejoin you have to prove that you have maintained CPD thropughtout the period of absence and pay all missed membership fee's as though you had never left in order to be reinstated.

Hi Shaun

Sorry to keep calling you out :)

You're an avid reader - you also know a hell of a lot about exams / member bodies etc

Have you read any ATT texts, if so, would you compare the ATT to F6 or P6?

I know with the ATT course there are the yellow and orange legislation texts to accompany the course, with F6 together with P6, there is not.

Could it be said that ATT leaves the reader with a deeper tax knowledge? Although it is quoted on the ATT website that the ATT qualification is a level 4 qualification, P6 is within masters level.

Thanks

Hi Joanne,

My fear is being put on the spot with a question, not knowing the answer, in turn looking like a amateur.

Now having said that, lawyers and doctors have to refer back to their books now and then..

I guess even a life times worth of experience can not help you cover everything.

I agree that knowing where to look is the key.

He He!!

Yes honesty is the best policy.

Sorry, unable to edit previous post due to using the mobile format. Could you then also, as you've resigned your ACCA membership to join the ICB, claim to be a qualified chartered accountant? In effect you are, or is the ACCA within their rights to track you down? Withdraw your certificates? This is the real difference between a professional qualification and a academic qualification I guess.. Can't exactly deny you a degree.

abacus12345 wrote:

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I've one for you Shaun. If you're sole trader / director of an accountancy practice - you've passed all the papers to ACCA, you then wish to display your certificates on your office wall....(You've no practice licence from ACCA, So you've a practice licence through the ICB (Sorry about that lol)) Would you need to put all your certificates, along with all your ACCA texts away, out of sight of your client, who pops round to your office to seek your advise on a tax matter?

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Sorry, after this morning spent on the site I've been drowning in Excel spreadsheets all afternoon (heaven ) so not had chance to catch up. I'm now tracking pennies rather than £1000's so thought that I would take a break for a bit.

I', afraid to say that your question is an absolute no.

If you are with the ACCA then that you join another body is immaterial. You are ACCA so only their practice certificate matters. If you practice beyond trial balance under (say) the ICB then that is completely against ACCA rules as you are practicing without an ACCA practicing certificate whilst you are still a member.

If you (say) work as a bookkeeper up to trial balance you may make no mention or indication of any affiliation with the ACCA unless you have an ACCA practice certificate. Basically you practice as an unqualified bookkeeper but able to do less than those with other bodies refering to themselves as bookkeepers.

Also, from your post you say sole trader / director of an accountancy practice... You cannot use the word accountancy to refer to your services. On a self employed basis you may only refer to yourself as a bookkeeper until you have an ACCA practice certificate.

The punishment from the ACCA for breach of their rules would be to fine you £800 minimum and very likely expel you either permanently or for a given period of time. If you are expelled by one professional body then non of the other professional bodies will touch you.

Its not worth in John. Either find a way to use your qualifications and experience to gain a three year post qualification training contract or think of changing to a quality professional body such as AIA.

I am a little confused as some of your posts indicate that you are qualified as they talk about your certificates whilst other talk about F level papers. If you don't mind me asking, where abouts in your studies are you?

Sorry to relay the above,

Shaun.

Shamus wrote:

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 I've been drowning in Excel spreadsheets all afternoon (heaven ) 

Shaun.

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