Hi Jo
Ive realised that when you first posted on the site that you didnt introduce yourself and we, it appears didnt ask. Perhaps you could do that now? Just a brief bit about background as bookkeeper, any qualifications (if indeed if qual by experience)/member of any association, where you are based (so we can eyeball the competition)  that sort of thing as this helps when pitching answers.

Also for this one - what sage are you using?

 

edit for typo

-- Edited by Cheshire on Sunday 8th of May 2016 09:09:11 AM

Although in sage you dont need to post an invoice, but I cant direct you without knowing which sage (does it have cash till option, just a cash 'bank' account or is it sage cloudy?). Im presuming you get the VAT breakdowns on the till roll end of day (z readings?)


Regards Bernard


(You couldve at least picked a girls name Shaun!!!! Thats now, bus, big pixie and Bernard, in just one week! Whatever next? A girl could be getting paranoid!)

Im claiming damages!!!! Although you know I come cheap, told you before I can easily be bought - I dont want expensive shoes nor handbags! Put forward your out of court settlement and I will consider dropping all future actions. 

Shamus wrote:

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Lol. reminds me of a case I heard years back where a thief sued a householder for injuries sustained whilst robbing their house.

---

 Sounds about right in this world gone mad!!!!

Don't forget to also sue your phone provider for not having a feature on their phone to prevent you from using the internet whilst driving.... If it does have that feature then sue for it not being applied automatically... If it is applied automatically sue for the imposed restriction of service.

And also sue your car manufacturer for the misdescription of cruise control as the eqivalent of autopilot.

And the highways agency for the arnco barrier on the roads not being made of a much softer material.


Lol. Have you read some of the warning on things to avoid such frivelous claims? I especially like the warning on the nuts that you get given on an Aircraft... "Warning. May contain nuts".

May favourite is "do not use iron on clothes whilst wearing them"

Tut.

Does he not realise that the sell by date is on the individual potato, not the packet.

i.e. If the potato either has greenery sprouting from it or is a puddle of liquid in the bottom of the bag then it is past the sell by date.

Here's a few more genuine one's for your amusement :

Hair Coloring: Do not use as an ice cream topping.
In an information booklet: "Do not use if you cannot see clearly to read the information in the information booklet."
Little Ones Baby Lotion - Keep away from children
Manual for a microwave oven: "Do not use for drying pets."
On a bag of chips - "You could be a winner! No purchase necessary. Details inside".
On a bottle of shampoo for dogs: "Caution: The contents of this bottle should not be fed to fish."
On a box of animal crackers: "No animals were harmed during the manufacture of this product."
On a can of air freshener: "For use by trained personnel only."
On a curling iron: "For external use only"
On a Frisbee: "Warning: May contain small parts."
On a frozen dinner: "Serving suggestion: Defrost."
On a hair dryer: "Do not use while sleeping."
On a kids superman costume: "Wearing of this garment does not enable you to fly."
On a portable stroller: "Caution: Remove infant before folding for storage."
On a shipment of hammers: "May be harmful if swallowed."
On a toilet bowl cleaning brush: "Do not use orally."
On Christmas lights: "For indoor or outdoor use only."
On Nytol sleep aid: Warning: may cause drowsiness.


On the Microwave one I remember the real case that was based on where an American woman used to dry her tiny pet dog in the oven on a low setting when they came in from a walk if it had been raining. One day she decided that it would be faster to dry the dog in the microwave. The rest is legal claim history!

Thanks Shaun for making me laugh. Especially liked the frozen dinner one.

Debbie

Shamus wrote:

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Tut.

Does he not realise that the sell by date is on the individual potato, not the packet.

i.e. If the potato either has greenery sprouting from it or is a puddle of liquid in the bottom of the bag then it is past the sell by date.       Dont you just cut the green sprouty bits off them? lol    

Here's a few more genuine one's for your amusement :         Oh I missed these last night as I went out for supper!

Hair Coloring: Do not use as an ice cream topping.        How do YOU know that, please tell me you dont dye your hair!!!
In an information booklet: "Do not use if you cannot see clearly to read the information in the information booklet."
Little Ones Baby Lotion - Keep away from children
Manual for a microwave oven: "Do not use for drying pets."
On a bag of chips - "You could be a winner! No purchase necessary. Details inside".
On a bottle of shampoo for dogs: "Caution: The contents of this bottle should not be fed to fish."
On a box of animal crackers: "No animals were harmed during the manufacture of this product."
On a can of air freshener: "For use by trained personnel only."
On a curling iron: "For external use only"
On a Frisbee: "Warning: May contain small parts."
On a frozen dinner: "Serving suggestion: Defrost."
On a hair dryer: "Do not use while sleeping."
On a kids superman costume: "Wearing of this garment does not enable you to fly."
On a portable stroller: "Caution: Remove infant before folding for storage."
On a shipment of hammers: "May be harmful if swallowed."
On a toilet bowl cleaning brush: "Do not use orally."
On Christmas lights: "For indoor or outdoor use only."
On Nytol sleep aid: Warning: may cause drowsiness.


On the Microwave one I remember the real case that was based on where an American woman used to dry her tiny pet dog in the oven on a low setting when they came in from a walk if it had been raining. One day she decided that it would be faster to dry the dog in the microwave. The rest is legal claim history!

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Ok - now Im realising that these are not gleaned from your personal experience, so you can be forgiven for knowing the hair dye one, lol.   Although I bet you tired to see if the superman costume worked didnt you? Come on, admit it. 

Hilarious and ewww re the dog - I do recall this being for real, you just cant deal with stupid!

Hi Cheshire The restaurant doesn't really fit in anywhere to be honest. I was asked for advice on how best to do the end of day cash as they were having trouble matching things up at the processing onto sage bit (sage 50). Now the end of day cash is sorted as I showed them how best to do that but the bookkeeping bit I didn't have anything to do with. I got the feeling they didn't want me meddling too much as more than likely it's a mess . Personally I would be glad of the help but some people don't like admitting when they need help. It turns out there is another business and both businesses share a bank account and thst all cask is banked together. I've done all I can do at this stage but it dud get me thinking of how I would manage it. Thanks for all you advice. I will mull over it and probably have more questions!!

Cheshire wrote:

 I wont give up my day job!  John has no need to fear - he has no rival for his joke telling! 

---

Have u been injured at work..? 
Had a car accident..? 
Slipped on a wet floor..? 
Tripped on an uneven surface..? 

If so... 

 

then you're accident prone and should stay at home

JKO wrote:

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Hi Cheshire Sorry I didn't actually answer of your questions 1. Not sure exact version but I'm pretty certain it's sage 50. 2. They are vat registered but I don't think it is split up on z reading. I never thought to lok actually. My bad. Was just thinking if daily cash up. 3. They don't have any system in place for deposits. They just bank it. That's what I advised them as it will end up in a mess. 4. Vouchers I mean gift vouchers. So like a deposit. So it would be best to have a separate nominal code for vouchers and deposits di bank receipt nominal code xxxx then when sales are made for the customer thst has paid s deposit or bought vouchers allocate it against those sales? It would be balance sheet nominal code wouldn't it? Thanks

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Hi Jo

Its Jo (Cheshire) by the way - which you probably cant see if using a mobile, but an easy name to remember for some reason. lol!

Anyway - if you can check the sage version next time you are there that would help, but I will answer giving the option of say sage professional with cash till or sage 50 without, just in case the latter hasnt got one.

Basics - takings - do not key any invoices for any sales.  

Sage Prof - go to Bank module, click on cash till icon on the top bar (just passed half way along if I recall correctly) - this will open up a window for keying the takings.  

Key as per whatever sales breakdown you have set up/per your Zs  (#) eg you may have 4000 sales code for hot food; 4001 for hot takeaway, 4002 for cold takeaway, 4003 for drinks.

Key the amount and T1 if vatable (most likely) and calc net (you use calc net as the VAT is included in the total of the takings usually).  T0 as appropriate (rare I would think in your case).

Note this cash till icon gives you the opportunity to key any cash discrepancies which will go to a nominal code around the 820x area just called cash discrepancies.    Also note that any tips need to be stripped out to their own nominal code too (T9).   You will possible have a separate nominal code for deposits (just in sales as Im assuming its non refundable, or just allocate it to food, although you need to be careful once that deposit is taken off the bill once they actually come in and pay for their meal).  Plus yes a nominal for vouchers (yes as Shaun indicated earlier, in the liabilities section).

Sage - with no cash till - go to the Bank module, click on petty cash (re-name if you want) and key the cash as a 'BR' Bank receipt - use the same nominals and VAT codes/calc net as above.  In this scenario you will need to set up a cash discrepancies nominal code.  

When you do any bankings you just transfer from the cash/till to Bank as usual.

(#) Issue is - controlling the overall takings v til balance etc, as staff have a habit of raiding the till to pop out to get last minute supplies for the chef or for the front of house so you need a way to monitor this carefully versus cash come in.  Also a major issue is monitoring deposits paid versus used up and worse still the vouchers, which should all be numbered and dated so you can monitor them.

So you need a very robust system - suggest a proforma that the staff fill in each time they cash up.   Suggest double cash ups - one after lunch time service and one at end of day.  This proforma to have the split and information that your Zs dont, some can be for the accounts office use only  to aid you in keying, but will also need to include an area for them to fill in when purchases are made and most importantly staple the small bits of receipts to - so then you can ensure you get them all and can do a mini till check each day.  Not straight forward at all.

(#) Next issue - VAT, from what you are saying.  This is a complex area when it comes to food (remember the pasty tax?).    They need to review the use of their tills as most z's now will give a full VAT breakdown and show till discrepancies, although these might be different to the actual as they raid the tills,  so this must be sorted urgently! If changing the zs to give you the giht info is not do-able then they need to look at a retail scheme and again urgently!

Couple or three notices to get you going:-

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-notice-70114-food/vat-notice-70114-food

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-notice-727-retail-schemes

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-notice-7007-business-promotions/vat-notice-7007-business-promotions 

Also  - look at what is happening with tips paid via credit/debit cards and listed on the z - these need to separated out and you need to make sure whoever is doing payroll is running a TRONC - see HMRC.

Hope that helps.

(Oh and just given what you said on your intro, if this is a client separate from your day job, I hope you have the right PII/MLR in place - just thought I would add in case you havent thought of it!)

 

JKO wrote:

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 So 'Petty cash' or what ever its called Till 1 etc the sales would be entered in here as a receipt? Due to the way the cash sheet has been set up - it is a format I have used for years in restaurants where I have done the cash up - the float is counted - the z is taken the cc, petty cash receipts are added, any discounts etc taken care of (taken form z total) and then as per the cash sheet you are left with the cash total. The cash is then banked. If  a receipt is then going into the petty cash on bank module - how do you then account for it as a bank receipt and show that that br is for those sales on that day? That's why I was thinking of creating an invoice. I could then create a journal for any discounts ( comp meals, special offers etc )

When you do any bankings you just transfer from the cash/till to Bank as usual. - Do you mean when the cash is physically banked into the bank account? I would do a bank receipt?

(#) Issue is - controlling the overall takings v til balance etc, as staff have a habit of raiding the till to pop out to get last minute supplies for the chef or for the front of house so you need a way to monitor this carefully versus cash come in. Also a major issue is monitoring deposits paid versus used up and worse still the vouchers, which should all be numbered and dated so you can monitor them. - No system in place yet for monitoring deposits and gift vouchers- I have highlighted this. Still unsure of where a deposit or gift voucher sale would fall- I would treat them the same as a liability but then when they are redeemed how would I allocate it against the sales for that day - when the funds are received a bank receipt would need to be done to nominal code 1103 ( something similar ) and then another journal to sales when it is redeemed???

So you need a very robust system - suggest a proforma that the staff fill in each time they cash up. Suggest double cash ups - one after lunch time service and one at end of day. This proforma to have the split and information that your Zs dont, some can be for the accounts office use only to aid you in keying, but will also need to include an area for them to fill in when purchases are made and most importantly staple the small bits of receipts to - so then you can ensure you get them all and can do a mini till check each day. Not straight forward at all. - Like I said a cash sheet is being used that shows a break down of everything and the petty cash receipts are stapled to the sheet with details of what the purchase is. So then actually that's a thought hiw do I then account for the petty cash purchases?

total sales £500.00

Petty cash £21.50 - potatoes eg

cc £300.00

cash £178.50

I was thinking create a sales invoice for £500.00, when cash and cc are in bank do cash br £178.50 (narrative date of cash sheet - would also have pay in slip number on cash sheet) cc br £300.00 ( would do nominal payment to cc fees if they are taken at source ) does sage 50 allow you to do a nominal receipt/payment from bank module? It doesn't look like it does. Then the petty cash I would do a journal cr sales dr food purchase.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Hi Jo

Tried to strip the questions down so I can see them on screen.  I will start with your invoice suggestion

If you create and invoice for the days sales as suggested above, then with your process you have a few issues.  (1) Its an extra process, ie creating the invoice, that is not necessary.  (2) allocating the cash is easy, but the credit cards - how do you know when the lump sum arrives from the card company, which element of that receipt relates to which invoice?  It just will get messy.  More importantly (3) the invoice will have an o/s amount of £21.50 as that money has been spent, so then you would be involved in creating either a refund against the invoice in sage, or a credit note to purchases and linking the balance on the invoice and credit note and the whole thing will soon become an almighty mess.

So - avoid that one (I would).

I take it that you do not have the 'cash till' tool on the  version of sage you are using.  So JUST for now - lets ignore deposits,  'discounts', tips  and vouchers and use your EG above.

Process

(1) total sales £500 - key as a 'BR' to the CASH account, nominal code 4000 range, T1 calc net (are you ok with why you need to do the T1 calc net?)

(2) key the purchase of potatoes £21.50 as 'BP' to the cash account, in this case T0 as its non vat food item.  But it may also be for T1 calc net if you bought eg batteries for the smoke alarm and you have a valid vat receipt from the local shop!   Key to purchases or expenses nominal as required. (NO need to do a PI!)

(3) when the £178.50 is paid into the Bank account, go to cash Bank and key as 'Bank transfer' to current account and in the reference box, delete the word 'trans' and put your paying in slip number and maybe even key a narrative of 'payins' or some such.  #

(3) when the £300.00 is paid into the Bank by the card company,  go to cash Bank and key as 'Bank transfer' to current account and in the reference box,  key the words 'PDQ or Streamline, or card payments' in the narrative. #

# NB - the cash might not be banked daily, so the cash transfer might just be for the totals of a few days - ONLY do this transfer when you pay in.  Same with cards - only do the transfer as you see the £bulk payment arrive in your Bank account. Doing this measn you can reconcile your Bank easily.

Once you are happy with this process we can expand for some of the other things.   

Are you able to have a go at this is the practice mode before the next steps?

 

 

 

Fab. lol on the vat rate.

Next stage. Deposits.

The cashing up proforma or z needs to show deposit received.

Are they actually refundable? As in - what if the customer doesnt turn up, do they lose the deposit? Once that deposit has been used - how will you know?  Does it show on the 'z's or do they just show the total taken from the customer?    That is crucial for how you decide which method above you use.  If you dont know when the deposit has been used up  and you have placed that deposit to a liab code, then you will end up with a pile of liabilities showing as you dont know when to clear them.   

If they are not refundable - I would be tempted to keep it very simple and key it to sales as you did with the £500, but you could add the word deposit in your narrative section. Eg £490 to sales, narrative food, T1 calc net, separate line £10 to sales, narrative deposit, T1 calc net.

If they are refundable you need to add it to your balance sheet as a liability, but then it gets even more complicated!  If you do go down this route  - Care - do not use 1103 as you proposed as this is an asset account for prepayments #  You need an account in the   21xx range - rename an unused one/set up a new one as 'customer deposits' (check your COA)

#   Prepayments - I can understand why this word confuses people.  But this is for future expenses that have been in advance.  Eg insurance - is paid on day one for the next year.  Paid in advance.  So if your year end is one month after you paid the insurance bill, then only one month relates to that financial year, the other 11 months is paid in advance of the next financial year, so the 11mths worth is a prepayment.  Post again if you need more on this.

 

more later.

 

 

Hi Jo
The issue you might have is actually getting the staff to provide all the information you need, but if you have a good restaurant manager and let them know of issues as soon as they arise they you should be ok.

Them writing the deposit information on the daily sheet is a good start, as is you keeping some kind of monitoring spreadsheet, but also making it work easily otherwise the staff will just get bored and do what they think is right, rather then provide what you need. (been there, seen it, had to sort it out!)

I personally would not make then pay in the deposits separately to the Bank as this creates extra in terms of Bank charges for the client. They will be paying for cash paid in as also for each paying in slip, so whilst it doesnt seem much it can soon add up, especially for such cash based businesses (cash is the dearest item!)

If they add it to the spreadsheet (and even better if you can incorporate into the 'z's - get the company who installed it to do some tweaking), then you can key the deposit as you did with the original cash takings, but instead of coding it to sales you code it to the 'deposit received' 21xx liability account.

Dont forget this includes VAT as its taken!! So its just another line on the same screen whilst you are keying (its all about keeping it simple, whilst still doing the books properly).

THEN - when you are advised its been used you can just journal between 21xx and sales (note, not cash!) - again remembering this is the net of VAT figure. (so careful with your monitoring spreadsheet as this will show as gross unless you add the VAT/net info)

Same for vouchers, but make sure they have a shortish expiry date on them. Also be aware that some are never redeemed - you will be surprised how many!

No to the separate Bank accounts, you should have enough controls in place in the business, its separated out in the accounts and again thats adding a layer of complexity which is not required for this business (different if there is a need for a 'clients account' so I get where you are coming from).

Any that they have already banked separately - just key deposit straight to Bank and allocate to 21xx account, calc net, and then journal again to sales idc.

If you need to do a refund of a deposit, if done in cash eg key as 'BP' from cash (full amount), code to liab T1 calc net and then journal from sales to liab code. Again try it out if you have time. When I first did anything new like this I would have a list of actions written down on a card, with t1 calc net info and even sometimes the relevant impact on accounts by way of T accounts so you can see it and check it the first few times you do it all.

Dont forget - any money received as tips goes in the same 'cash' Bank as T9, so its a credit to a 'gratuities received' account - so when you are keying the wages journals you will debit this gratuities account when the staff get their wages.

Hope Im making sense today!

Hi Jo
Sorry I think there is some confusion here over my comment on vouchers. Its been a while since I dealt with vouchers so you would need to double check the VAT position but its in the vat notice 700/7 (too late for me to be double checking that now! Might see if I have time later in the week).

Vat is due on the payment of a deposit, not when it is used up. If it is refunded then that VAT element is reversed. If the deposit is used for food/drinks, then the next batch of VAt becomes due on the balance payable less that deposit. If the deposit is forfeited the VAT is not due so an adjustment can be done.

Anyhoo...regardless of how you are paid (cash or credit/debit card) the idea is to treat your Sage cash 'bank' account as your till. So any takings you key via the cash 'bank' and any payments made in cash go through it too. Forget the words petty cash. In fact re-name your account as either just 'cash' or even 'cash register'.

Ignore the Bank for a minute.

So a worked example and hopefully my adding up is correct and I dont miss anything!

Mondays lunchtime takings

£500 taken as follows £200 cash; £200 credit card; in addition £50 deposit paid in cash £50 voucher sold paid via card
of the £400 relating to sales - £200 relates to food sales; £160 drink sales £40 tips
You have purchase receipts £21.50 potatoes £2.50 envelopes

All of the NET cash takings are banked on Monday ie £226 (ie £250 cash less purchases)

The card payments will be banked automatically a couple of days later -say Wednesday (£250.00)

First deal purely with the income items through the cash till

  Ive included vouchers at T9 - this needs verifying as above

Then the purchases

 

Then Monday afternoon's payment into the Bank

Use transfer module
cr cash		dr bank	Narrative
£226.00		£226.00	Net takings xx/xx/xx	T9

Then on Wednesday you should see the credit card receipts paid in from your credit card company, so at that point do another transfer of the card items

Use transfer module
cr cash		dr bank	Narrative
£250.00		£250.00	CC takings	T9

 

So you can see - you may have half cash tips/half credit card tips, but doing it this way, it does matter as they get logged in the first instance into your cash till, then moved out as required.  

When you redeem vouchers/deposits then do a journal from appropriate 21xx codes BUT - to sales.  (Adjusting for vat as required) 

Do you know how to do journals to ensure VAT is captured?  If not - add it as another post please so others can learn from it too, as I reckon most might not be following this thread any more!

 

HTH

Hi Jo
Vouchers need a double check as Im bombed and havent got time to look at any changes that might have occured since I last did them a good three years ago, sorry.
Deposits - here is a start point reading www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-instalments-deposits-credit-sales

Hi,

I've always thought that vouchers attract vat at the point of sale as you are selling the voucher - regardless of what it is redeemed against, the restaurant has still made a sale of the voucher. I did a bit of digging when our restaurant sold promotional vouchers, it was a complete nightmare. We account for the vat at the time any deposits are received or vouchers sold, on the very rare occasion a deposit is forfeited then we reverse the vat element only. Pretty much the same treatment as Jo describes for deposits we apply to vouchers except vat is accounted for on all voucher sales. Hope this helps some.