Joanne, so as to avoid confusion, let me make it really simple.

A non member can view some articles, view some videos, comment on these articles and videos, join and comment our open facebook group, join and comment on both of our linkedin groups, attend our events and face to face training. All without joining anything!

A free member can do everything a non member can do, plus they can read and comment on more of our articles and videos, get a copy of our monthly bookkeepers news email, attend some of our webinars, and a few more things.

A silver member can do everything a free member can, plus join our secret facebook group, read and comment on more articles, access shared resources, join our weekly village hall meeting, join our monthly webinars, be part of our advisory panel, use our helplines and a few more things.

A gold member can do everything a silver member can and attend all of our masterclasses, watch webinar and masterclass recordings, access premium resources, get discounts on other services, and more.

A platinum member can do everything a gold member can and gets a 15 minute mentoring session every month.

I hope I have now answered everything.

Kris

Can you please provide me with a link to your non member non login in blogs or resources, as I can't seem to open any.

In the 17:31 post Kris I think that it was you that were moving some of the goalposts but rather than getting into a he said / she said, mud slinging match I think that it's time to say that this thread is getting a little out of hand.

The reality is that no matter what museings and wishful thinking you let slip Kris there is no link between BKN and BKA/BKPR unless Steve says that there is.

From whats been written so far I'm not seeing any advantage to BKN in forming any sort of relationship that could not be formed with any number of household name suitors if Steve wished for that to happen.

I stand to be corrected but I've heard nothing to indicate that he is looking for that at the moment. If or when he is the site is of such size and regard that he could easily choose an organisation where BKN members would not get confused over where one entity ends and the other begins (I'm thinking something like AAT which like us is a true crossover between bookkeeping and accounting focused on SME businesses).

Of course, I'm just the moderator not the owner of the site and its not down to me to make commercial decisions about the sites future direction. Anything that I say should be regarded as myself making comment not the site.

What is down to me is to protect this site and its members and to reasure them that until I hear otherwise from Steve there is no credibility to anything being said in this thread about any link between organisations.

I don't think that you quite appreciate how loved and needed this site is Kris and your initial talk of close ties was the wrong one in that it immediately made people here worried that the site could change (and not in a good way like the redesign).

In future when attempting to partner with a site remember that you need to sell yourself to the main contributors as they are the one's who keep the line traffic returning. If you buy into a site where the contributors don't support you then you've bought a donkey as the readership would go elsewhere the moment that someone that they do not approve of has anything to do with it.

You've studied marketing, I don't need to tell you that Kris.

Right. lets see whats been posted since I started constructing this olive branch.

kjmcculloch83 wrote:

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Call me mad, but why will anyone put themselves out there if this is the result?

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Oh dear,

the reality is that the contributors here don't expect anything in return (nothing, nict, nada, zilch). The same as when you started contributing here, we do it because we are trying to help people who are struggling often on their own and to improve the knowledge base of the profession.

To pass comment such as this makes former posts seem like ground work where I know that at the time that was never your intent.

Former contributions to the site much as they are appreciated and will always form what makes this site great give you no claim over the site and no priority when it comes to marketing your business be that free or paid for.

Don't lose sight of why you have helped so many people in the past when trying to move your business forwards.

On a less savoury note the posts towards Joanne read in a very condescending manner and I'm sorry but that gets you a yellow card (almost anyone but you Kris would have gone straight to red). I'm sure that you've seen many of her posts here so to use lines like "let me make it very simple" read very poorly when you are using them against one of (if not) the sites top contributors.

If you appologise to Joanne for the condescending manner of your replies which got out of hand in the heat of debate I'm sure that we can put this to bed without it escalating further.

kjmcculloch83 wrote:

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Because, before that you said: " but I do have a problem when you can freely come over to BKN and have your say and for all to see it.....but the reverse is not true.....where exactly can I post the same about BKN on your site"

As soon as I answered that, you then went on to change it to talk about reading articles. That's why the goalposts comment.


Kris

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 NO Kris, read again what I said, don't go missing bits out.  I said

''but I do have a problem when you can freely come over to BKN and have your say and for all to see it.....but the reverse is not true.....where exactly can I post the same about BKN on your site for ALL, not just signed in members, to see it, ..''

the words 'to see it' cover off the point I made about reading articles. Read it in context.  So as I said before I didn't change the goalposts. 

Now before I had to go off site for a while, I asked for a link to show me the said articles I could read. Believe this or not, but I was giving you and your business the opportunity to show the other readers of BKN that it was indeed possible, but you have instead accused me of something that wasn't factually true, ie moving the goalposts. 

to be honest, the whole lot is A pointless exercise until the exults of your discussions with Steve have been concluded. I will wait for an announcement from him if one is forthcoming and maybe then some meat will be added to the bones of how this would work, if it comes to be. I personally cannot see how it can actually work. 

 Btw, i not slaughtered you for trying to help the profession,nowhere does it say that, so please don't put words into my mouth, as all I've done is raise a valid objection to a a possible collaboration, that as I said before should never have been brought up by you or anyone on this forum until the forum owner deemed it should be.

-- Edited by Cheshire on Thursday 18th of August 2016 08:28:25 PM

Have amended the link. It wasn't deliberately hidden. It went to an event I hosted about 15 months ago so must have accidentally left the 'A' there

HendyPhilhendy wrote:

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Cheshire wrote:

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Shamus wrote:

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p.s. sorry Phil, hidden links (the letter A in your signature is a link) to commercial sites or for SEO purposes are not permitted. (For long standing members such as yourself links to our own websites (such as www.philhendy.com) where you may put the link to commercial sites is fine)

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Shaun's spam spotters have spotted it too - well I did, I think John maybe asleep still!    

But its still there!!  Or are you giving Phil the chance to remove it? 

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 It wasn't deliberate spam - as explained above the 'link' went nowhere and was accidentally left from an old signature link. 

 

May not have bèen active lately but I am nearly 500 posts on this forum so to be accused of spamming is a bit harsh

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 Ha! Try having over 2000 and being accused of.... well, where to start?

HendyPhilhendy wrote:

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Cheshire wrote:

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Shamus wrote:

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p.s. sorry Phil, hidden links (the letter A in your signature is a link) to commercial sites or for SEO purposes are not permitted. (For long standing members such as yourself links to our own websites (such as www.philhendy.com) where you may put the link to commercial sites is fine)

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Shaun's spam spotters have spotted it too - well I did, I think John maybe asleep still!    

But its still there!!  Or are you giving Phil the chance to remove it? 

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 It wasn't deliberate spam - as explained above the 'link' went nowhere and was accidentally left from an old signature link. 

 

May not have bèen active lately but I am nearly 500 posts on this forum so to be accused of spamming is a bit harsh

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 Clearly the spam spotters team was tongue in cheek Phil, the John being asleep as well as the team name was, I hoped a giveaway.  but as you've not been around for a while, you probably wouldn't get my daft sense of humour. t was a weird one, in the first capital 'A'. Besides I always thought, as Shaun said, that contributing members could get away with a few bits more than the one off hits of real spam we see daily

-- Edited by Cheshire on Thursday 18th of August 2016 09:10:53 PM

Cheshire wrote:

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Clearly the spam spotters team was tongue in cheek Phil, the John being asleep as well as the team name was, I hoped a giveaway.  but as you've not been around for a while, you probably wouldn't get my daft sense of humour. t was a weird one, in the first capital 'A'. Besides I always thought, as Shaun said, that contributing members could get away with a few bits more than the one off hits of real spam we see daily

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Turns out the other half of my team of eagle eyed minions has installed a new browser and can't get on the site.

Just been attempting to sort him out so fingers crossed he'll be on in a min (thought that John had been a bit quiet for the past couple of days).

For valued contributors such as Phil and Yourself its only the partially hidden links that are not allowed Joanne. Where a full link to a web address is plainly included thats fine.

 

Cheshire wrote:

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Shaun's spam spotters have spotted it too - well I did, I think John maybe asleep still!    

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 I wasn't asleep Joanne, I couldn't get on the b*oody forum!! 

I had inadvertently locked myself out because I couldn't remember the password and the reminder service is temporarily up the creek!

Anyway thanks to being on first name terms with our wonderful moderator all is well again.

 

Now then, what's been going off, you can't start a flame war without me lol.

The way I see it, and I could be totally wrong, is that Kris is looking to the commercial side of BKN rather than the forum side.  The old BKN had some limited resources for paid members and it may be this side that Steve and Kris are looking to develop.  I'm not a member of the bookkeepers alliance but I've looked at it and can see the benefits on the resource side for a bookkeeper, especially fledgling ones. I think it is this, rather than the facebook groups, that members are paying for.

I see no issue with it as long as this forum keeps it's independence and it's integrity.  That's obviously a worry for Shaun, yourself and other regular contributors.  I do agree that Kris shouldn't have mentioned anything about it on the forum, as I see that as Steve's job when the time is right.

Leger wrote:

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Cheshire wrote:

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Shaun's spam spotters have spotted it too - well I did, I think John maybe asleep still!    

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 I wasn't asleep Joanne, I couldn't get on the b*oody forum!! 

I had inadvertently locked myself out because I couldn't remember the password and the reminder service is temporarily up the creek!

Anyway thanks to being on first name terms with our wonderful moderator all is well again.

 

Now then, what's been going off, you can't start a flame war without me lol.

The way I see it, and I could be totally wrong, is that Kris is looking to the commercial side of BKN rather than the forum side.  The old BKN had some limited resources for paid members and it may be this side that Steve and Kris are looking to develop.  I'm not a member of the bookkeepers alliance but I've looked at it and can see the benefits on the resource side for a bookkeeper, especially fledgling ones. I think it is this, rather than the facebook groups, that members are paying for.

I see no issue with it as long as this forum keeps it's independence and it's integrity.  That's obviously a worry for Shaun, yourself and other regular contributors.  I do agree that Kris shouldn't have mentioned anything about it on the forum, as I see that as Steve's job when the time is right.

---

You're right John, on all counts.  I don't want to do the he said/ she said thing today, and I'm not going to speak specifically about any organisation.  These are general comments.

Free resources are great, but they need to be paid for somehow.  If there are no additional services members are buying into, then they need to be bankrolled by the owner.  Over extended periods of time, this can prove costly.  So what do they do?  They could try advertising revenue.  This provided excellent returns at one point, but with prices paid for clicks down, and clicks down due to software and general ad blindness, this creates an issue.

Many others use a membership model, where paid members get a little more value, and subsidise the free members.  This model only works well if you can add the necessary value to encourage upgrades without compromising the initial offering.  After all, it's generally the free offering which attracts people and allows them to enter the funnel to upgrade to a paid package.

OK, now the specifics from my point of view.  We love the forum.  We didn't want to compete with it.  We don't think it should change.  We have a very clear three question system.  Is it needed?  Does it exist?  Can we do it better or different?  The answer to these three in terms of a forum, I thought, no.  BKN does the forum well.  It's established, and respected.  Why compete with that and split the market?  We wanted to signpost people looking for a forum, straight here.  

Again, my thoughts, we do things better offline.  This is clearly an online forum.  It doesn't have offline activities.  We're filling the events page in the absence of any other events.  Some free, some low cost, and some at a commercial rate.  We cover these events.  We can fill the some of the other parts of the site with content too.  It makes the site even more attractive, and encourages others to upgrade to advertise.  No one will list an event or product in an empty section.  We all want to follow the crowds, if the crowds don't post we assume it's not read, or some other reason.  

Again, these are just my thoughts.  Back to general comments.  How long can a free resource last without a commercial arm to subsidise it?  (rhetorical question)

Kris

 

kjmcculloch83 wrote:

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How long can a free resource last without a commercial arm to subsidise it?  (rhetorical question)

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Kris,

Rhetorical or not it deserves a response.

1) you seem to be forgetting the organisation who is backing the site. This is not some tuppnee aipnee site desperate for immediate revenue streams from any source. there is no risk to the site immediate or otherwise  that they need to find a suitor.Please kindly refrain from putting such ideas in your posts with the intent of worrying the visitors to the site about its longevity.

2) The integrity of the site is defined by the organisations that it associates itself with. In the same way that you are trying to gain credibility by associating your organisation with BKN so BKN could choose to associate itself with larger players in the industry if it wanted to. This reminds me a little of a couple of years back where the ICB was attempting to associate itself with the ICAEW. I'm not saying the variance between the organisation is to that sort of scale but thought it a good analogy.

3) You make a big thing about not competing against the forum.Think that you need a bit of a reality check there. Thats like me turning around to Barclays and saying partner with me or I'll set up my own bank! People set up forums every day and every day they disappear into obscurity as nobody visits them. It takes years, a lot of luck and maybe a miracle of biblical proportions to find the right combination of people to make a forum take off. By all means try and set up your own forum nobody will be offended or worried by another forum setting up in competition.

4) Can't remember if it was in this thread or the letter you sent to Steve that spoke of the unhelpful dominance of a few members of this site (no insult taken) but there was a line about you not being able to recommend your members visit this site... Don't worry about it. Don't ever mention us to anyone. We don't care! The site has got over 6k members, is growing exponentially and well over a million visits each month. People in your organisation will find this site without any recomendation anyway whenever they Google questions (the same threat has been made by two large training companies to similar effect).

5) You say that you do not want to change anything about BKN but mere association would change peoples perceptions of it. If people access BKA through BKN there is the natural assumption that the organisations are different arms of the same entity. That is not a confusion that would happen if BKN became associated with one of the recognised professional bodies. I am not saying that BKN will go down that route but if you have done a really good job of selling Steve on the idea of outsourcing the commercial side of things then he has all of the right contacts to make that happen (and any that he doesn't I do... Although I suspect that in reality we probably have the same industry contacts).

 

I have to say here that I have absolutely no feeling at all towards your organisations Kris which I hope does very well for you and Mike. I hope however that you appreciate that everything that I say is in attempting to reassure our readers that nothing that you say about a linkup has any credibility. I appreciate your abolute belief in your baby but you cannot expect other organisations to simply fall in line with what you would like to happen to grow your business. Drip feeding such things here in the hope that familiarity with a concept breeds acceptance of it doesn't work as the members here are not simpletons who cannot see basic marketing tactics.

kindest regards,

Shaun.

p.s. Sure that you know this already but the approach that you've adopted of  "Is it needed?"  "Does it exist?"  "Can we do it better or different?" But on the off chance that you don't know where that approach comes from its actually from both the analysis of elements within Porters value chain and also Johnson and Scholes set of questions that one asks in relation to benchmarking ones organisation. Thats completely seperate to the rest of the post, not meant for arguement and is just letting you know if anyone asks and you didn't know which great accounting theorists came up with it.

I have had some questions answered on here and SOME comments have been very helpful from members, BUT some just want to ridicule and make people feel useless and insignifican. Hence why I decided not to post or log in for such a long time. As its these comments that we do not need in the profession at any level.

 

Yes I am i member of TBA and quite simple it's not about brownie points or scoring anything and goes to show the shallowness of some people on this forum. There is no such thing as a stupid question! Most the time it's about getting confirmation to something we already know not about getting made to feel like you don't know what your doing.

And if TBA gets this forum I will stop my membership period.

 

 

-- Edited by Eilef on Friday 19th of August 2016 01:14:27 PM

-- Edited by Eilef on Friday 19th of August 2016 01:15:20 PM

Cheshire wrote:

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Shamus wrote:

 

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Turns out the other half of my team of eagle eyed minions has installed a new browser and can't get on the site.

Just been attempting to sort him out so fingers crossed he'll be on in a min (thought that John had been a bit quiet for the past couple of days).

---

 Lol, I had wondered where he had been, although with his posting at 3am the other day I thought he had turned into an owl. Or a vampire!! How ironic after him helping Georgie out the other day ! 

---

 It's been a weird sleep pattern this week Joanne.  Went to bed at 4 that morning for no particular reason than I couldn't be bothered going to bed. Then the next morning I was woken up at 5.30 after being nudged by a Staffie who was wanting me to fuss her.  (Stopover when in Doncaster lol) so last night I thought early night tonight and still never went to bed til gone 3.  It's a good job I can choose my own hours to work isn't it lol.

Speaking of vampire owls.  One night one such creature came back covered in blood.  "Wow, you lucky beggar", said his mates, "where've you been to get all that blood?"  "Come on, I''ll show you" he said.  So they all followed this vampire owl through the woods and suddenly he came to a halt.  "You see that tree over there" he said. "Yes" they replied, "Well I $%^&!  didn't"

That's probably a bit harsh I know some accountants who are really nice people.

So can anyone tell me what a good accountant makes these days?

Eilef wrote:

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So can anyone tell me what a good accountant makes these days?

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One less person able to post on the forum.

Think you need to work better on your banning skills I can change my IP address in a heart beat

Eilef wrote:

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Think you need to work better on your banning skills I can change my IP address in a heart beat

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 You talk about the 'profession' yet your behaviour is far from professional. Not only does it go against how decent people act, but it goes directly against the ethics of the professional body you are signed up to.

But if you want to continue to act like a 5 year old with the foul mouth, then carry on. Especially with your business right next to such comments.....great advert.

Joanne is ace by the way. Just saying.

abacus12345 wrote:

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Joanne is ace by the way. Just saying.

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 Ahhh, lol, but thank you Johnny! Plus ditto what Shaun said 

By the way, can someone change that bloody Expert badge underneath that very smart picture of me?

It seems that (and I do agree) while advertising is a no no on certain forums, false advertising is allowed on
BKN!

Oops, can I say bloody?

 

-- Edited by Spamkebab on Monday 22nd of August 2016 05:57:01 PM

Ooo, is this the AAT student Facebook group Neil?

Congrats on the new job - I wouldve emailed you, but I only had the old First one!

lol on the badge - Ive got what looks like three ten pences and 'Master Bookkeeper', surely that should read Mistress Bookkeeper.