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Post Info TOPIC: Invoice's and receipts


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Invoice's and receipts
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Hi have a client who has a tendency to pay his suppliers without obtaining an invoice.   Usually this is for services and not goods.

I have explained that it is preferable to obtain the invoice before making the payment, as it is much harder to obtain any form of documentation once payment has been made, but that isn't happening as the client is worried that the supplier wont return to do more work if he doesn't pay them straight away.  None of these suppliers are VAT registered so it doesn't really effect the VAT returns, and what I have started to do is to obtain the suppliers details from the client so I can at least keep a record of their contact details on the accounts and raise an invoice myself to show what work was carried out by the supplier, but just wondered what the consequences are if he continues in this manner, as we don't have a self-billing agreement in place with any of them and therefore, as far as I'm concerned, it is imperative that the supplier supply's us with either an invoice or a receipt once payment has been made (which isn't happening despite my asking for it) ?  But I'm not sure if I'm must being a bit picky. 

Any comments will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

Elaine 



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Master Book-keeper

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Hi Elaine
Tell him none of those purchases can be used to keep his tax down without an invoice - usually focuses the mind. Plus in the event of an HMRC inspection they may well discount a lot of his expenditure as there is absolutely nothing to prove its business related without the correct paperwork.

Or get the contact details and chase yourself (and charge him for it!) - Ive done this and still do for some clients, never had a problem getting copy invoices.



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 Joanne 

Winner of Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 & 2017 

Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.

You should check out answers with reference to the legal position



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Totally agree with Joanne.

It is the basics of any financial reporting and yet business owners still have a problem getting their heads round it. "sigh"

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Parminderjit Nunwa



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Thank you, I've told him that it will cost him more in the long run either in tax or in my time, but apparently he has to look at the "bigger picture" which is the smooth running of the business and the jobs need doing and apparently the paperwork is secondary to that.

Anyway, I have been chasing the paperwork myself and so far, as predicted, I have been ignored; so I think I'm going to stick to my guns in advising him to gets the paperwork off his suppliers before he pays them. Personally I think that if they can't be bothered to give him the correct paperwork for the work they have done then should this client be employing their services ??

Thank you so much as I now feel a bit more confident that I'm not making a fuss about nothing at least.


Elaine



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Elaine Rae wrote:

Thank you, I've told him that it will cost him more in the long run either in tax or in my time, but apparently he has to look at the "bigger picture" which is the smooth running of the business and the jobs need doing and apparently the paperwork is secondary to that.



OMG, what a berk! Makes me wonder exactly what he is hiding and I would be going back to him stating it will all be dumped to the DLA or the drawings account unless you get official invoices.

Can't understand why you are not getting invoices, unless they use the excuse of not being authorised to email them to you, in which case get him to authorise them to speak to you.  Or, if you have only emailed the requests, try phoning.  I've never had an issue.....unless of course they didn't actually sell him anything, or maybe more to the point, didn't actually sell to his business. 

Then if he still isn't playing ball, dump him.  You don't need clients like that. 



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 Joanne 

Winner of Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 & 2017 

Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.

You should check out answers with reference to the legal position



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I have a client who isn't too far off being as bad as that one sounds - he's not quite as bad because he does send me some things.

  1. If invoices are emailed to him, he usually - but not always - forwards them.
  • In some cases, I suspect he hasn't received them and pays when being chased, without checking and asking for a copy. (And he's one of my cloud clients, so he very definitely can check, just doesn't.)
If he has to log-in to retrieve them, he usually doesn't.
  • In some cases, he has given me his log-ins (hello security!) and I log-in to retrieve them
If they're over the counter receipts, or received in the post, he sometimes scans them and sends them to me.
  • In some cases these are just the CC 'counterfoil - I suspect when he is given these he doesn't check that it doesn't double up as a VAT receipt ask for one if not.

Case in point on the sub-point to #1, there's a supplier who does normally send him invoices; several months ago he made a payment to them for a not insignificant amount for which there is no invoice on the system. I've asked him to get (or find) a copy, and it appears on a list (see below). Just over a month ago, completely ignoring my requests, he asked me to 'fix' the account because it doesn't reflect what they say he owes (in effect, it's saying they owe him, due to that payment). I pointed out again that there is a missing invoice. A lengthy discussion with his secretary led to a rough idea when this invoice might be... then nothing, until a week or so back. At that point, he forwarded me two invoices from them, one of which matched the amount... but it's one that I do have. I've asked again - and asked for permission to contact the supplier directly - and as yet have heard nothing.

All of this is costing him more money, because it's taking more of my time (and for those who like value and set pricing, it's exactly this sort of thing that ensures I stick to charging by the hour!) - if he tells me to contact them directly, it would be sorted with a simple telephone call or (more likely) email exchange.

Now scale that up to not just that one invoice, but the whole mess it is getting invoices and receipts from him for other suppliers and expenditure!

So, to that list I mentioned - this (or a variation) is what I recommend for clients like this:

Whenever I see a payment that isn't supported by any paperwork and which I can't see any real justification for, it gets posted as a payment on account on the supplier ledger - and added to a spreadsheet listing all such transactions. The bottom line of that spreadsheet is reconciled to the equivalent figure in the accounts software.

That spreadsheet is turned into an html file and placed behind a secure log-in so he is able to see exactly what items there are for which I need supporting paperwork. And once that (and other related files are ready each week) I send an email to him to let him know it's there, as well as point out to him that he has a legal responsibility etc (blah blah blah) and make the point about my time and the cost to him - and that as a result of this there is valuable VAT going unclaimed* (However, I don't think he actually looks - I doubt I'll see any sign of him if I checked the site logs. TBH, I doubt he even reads the email.)

(Setting up a secure log-in and turning the spreadsheet into a web page might not be everyone's cup of tea, but other options include exporting it as a report to PDF and sending that to the client.)

He has asked me in the past to "just accrue for missing invoices" - but he thinks that will be sufficient for his accounts, and he doesn't mean accrue in the way we do: He wants me to just put figures on the system as if the invoices were received.

Uh-uh [shakes head]

I've set up a nominal account, called something like "Provision for unreceipted payments" and the end of each month, I look at the transactions on that spreadsheet for the month, and post a journal crediting that account and debiting the relevant/likely expense account. That way he has monthly figures, but the underlying data shows that this is a provisional figure, and that the paperwork is still needed. Where there is likely to be VAT, it is the net equivalent that is provisioned in this way.

If a bit of missing paperwork comes my way, it goes on the system as it should, the item is removed from the spreadsheet, and the relevant provision removed.

* That VAT adds up to a tidy amount, too, which is why it always astounds me that he doesn't take any action regarding it. Especially since his cash flow isn't brilliant - claiming all the VAT he can should be a priority because of that.

 

 

 

 



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Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software

(I only came here looking for fellow apiarists...)



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VinceH wrote:

 A lengthy discussion with his secretary....


 Hi Vince

A couple of thoughts, could he not delegate the responsibility to either his secretary or another member of staff, someone you could liaise with to get what info you need?  Where invoices or receipts are emailed, could they not be able to send them to you direct, or to a company email address that you have access to? (along the lines of the payroll ones we discussed a couple of months ago)



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John 

 

 

 Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.



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In theory, yes to all of those.

However, the problem is getting them to recognise the need to do any of these things.

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Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software

(I only came here looking for fellow apiarists...)

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