Hi All... just looking for confirmation that I can't do what I was hoping to.
I bought VT+ some time ago and only have 8 VAT clients on VT Transactions+ and about the same amount on Quickbooks so to keep costs to a minimum I was hoping to use Vital Tax Bridging Software.
I purposely turned off the VT+ Automatic Update tab about 6 months ago and hoped that I could carry out using it without having to subscribe.
I was hoping to use the export button into Vital Tax.. but have found that the boxes don't align.
Having revisited the VT Transactions+ help page... am I reading correctly that I have to pay for the full subscription to be able to use MTD export even to another platform?
Just looking for confirmation before I download the new version and start paying next year.
I ended up copying the VT Vat return to clipboard and then to Excel Spreadsheet, from there using Vital Tax to link to their MTD VAT return to file.
But concerned that my VAT return is really copy and paste with no digital link to VT software.... wont this fail compliance once the soft landing 12 month period ends.
Thanks for your help
Allison
PS Re. Margin... yes I have a second hand car dealer and spend ages working on excel spreadsheets and then posting the summary totals to VT. Not a good system.. if you find any good software please let me know. thanks.
I ended up copying the VT Vat return to clipboard and then to Excel Spreadsheet, from there using Vital Tax to link to their MTD VAT return to file.
But concerned that my VAT return is really copy and paste with no digital link to VT software.... wont this fail compliance once the soft landing 12 month period ends.
Hi Allison
You've got me thinking how taxfiler is going to work now, as you use the clipboard to past the info in from VT+.
__________________
John
Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.
John Hemming (guru?) advised export to clipboard and then direct from clipboard to software is fine, but he did tell me a way of doing it and Im not in the office just now so cannot see my notes, hence why Ive not been back on this one. Will see if can locate them but might be after the VAT period as Im sinking (sunk) with work at mo!
__________________
Joanne
Winner of Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 & 2017
Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.
You should check out answers with reference to the legal position
One thing about the internet is that every so often one's name pops up.
I thought it might be helpful to answer this question. If the clipboard is used in an automated manner with data being mapped in some way then that is a digital link and compliant from 1st April 2020. Just cutting and pasting individual numbers, however, is not automated.
HMRC changed position on this a good few months ago (probably some time in 2018)
Data transfer or exchange within and between software programs, applications or products that make up functional compatible software must be digital where the information continues to form part of the digital records. Once data has been entered into software used to keep and maintain digital records, any further transfer, recapture or modification of that data must be done using digital links. Each piece of software must be digitally linked to other pieces of software to create the digital journey.
It follows that transferring data manually within or between different parts of a set of software programs, products or applications that make up functional compatible software is not acceptable under Making Tax Digital. For example, noting down details from an invoice in one ledger and then using that handwritten information to manually update another part of the business functional compatible software system.
A digital link is one where a transfer or exchange of data is made, or can be made, electronically between software programs, products or applications. That is without the involvement or need for manual intervention such as the copying over of information by hand or the manual transposition of data between 2 or more pieces of software. This could be a transfer or exchange of data within a business (for example, between 2 systems) or a transfer of data to a tax agent in order that they can prepare a VAT Return or make a calculation (for example, a Partial Exemption calculation).
A digital link includes linked cells in spreadsheets, for example, if you have a formula in one sheet that mirrors the sources value in another cell, then the cells are linked.
HMRC also accepts that the following are digital links:
emailing a spreadsheet containing digital records so the information can be imported into another software product
transferring a set of digital records onto a portable device (for example, a pen drive, memory stick, flash drive) and physically giving this to someone else who then imports that data into their software
XML, CSV import and export, and download and upload of files
automated data transfer
API transfer
This list is not exhaustive.
HMRC does not consider the use of cut and paste or copy and paste to select and move information, either within a software program or between software programs, to be a digital link.
-- Edited by johnhemming on Friday 28th of June 2019 05:06:48 PM
A few of us are also on Aweb, but for the rest of the readership and technically challenged (Im in the latter camp) can you explain how the clipboard can be used in an 'automated manner' please?
Thanks
__________________
Joanne
Winner of Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 & 2017
Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.
You should check out answers with reference to the legal position
A few of us are also on Aweb, but for the rest of the readership and technically challenged (Im in the latter camp) can you explain how the clipboard can be used in an 'automated manner' please?
The clipboard is a place in which data can be stored and retrieved. A CSV file is in fact a "Comma Separated Variables" file. When a spreadsheet is stored in the clipboard it is stored as a tab separated variables file.
In practice if you save a file in the clipboard and retrieve it it is functionally equivalent to saving it on the disk or emailing it to someone. The key, therefore, is having a way whereby the computer understand what the information is. What HMRC don't want people to do is to cut and paste individual values because that is not an automated process. Different MTD providers do things in different ways. I have a very simple system which stores each value on a separate line (in either the CSV or TSV data) with a code such as BOX1 OR BOX2 to specify what the information is. Some of the other bridging providers have slightly more complex codes, but essentially do things the same way.
One thing to understand about the clipboard is that actually often a program will store information in the clipboard in a number of formats. It could store text, an image or a more complex format. On windows you can see what is in text format by pasting into Notepad.
Excel handles the clipboard in an odd way in that it sort of forgets the clipboard after a period of time. Open office does not do this. Often using Notepad is a good way of taking formatting out of information in the clipboard. Copy it into notepad and then copy it back out of notepad and the formatting has gone.
Hi john thanks for the confirmation the clip board is digital not copy and paste.
Ive been getting carried away thinking HMRC want an excel workbook with a summary vat return page not only including the digital link to HMRC portals but also the summary numbers to include digital link to all workings papers. So in other words if any queries they could ask for the back up and be able to follow the full trail of numbers through digitally linked formulas etc.
So the summary vat return does not have to be part of a work book for other clients who do their own vat on excel spreadsheets
Thanks
HMRC want you to have full digital links (from 1st April 2020). However, an automated digital link via the clipboard is not the same as cut and paste (even if cut and paste uses the clipboard).
Some of the digital links are not fully automated. For example if a spreadsheet with summary vat data is emailed to someone else for them to submit it then that is allowed.
The summary vat return does not have to be in the same work book, but it is much better if it is because then you can rely on the data being kept up to date. The danger of a summary in a different work book is that it does not necessarily update.
Looking at this: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-notice-70022-making-tax-digital-for-vat/vat-notice-70022-making-tax-digital-for-vat
HMRC also accepts that the following are digital links: emailing a spreadsheet containing digital records so the information can be imported into another software product transferring a set of digital records onto a portable device (for example, a pen drive, memory stick, flash drive) and physically giving this to someone else who then imports that data into their software XML, CSV import and export, and download and upload of files automated data transfer API transfer This list is not exhaustive.
Additionally where you say:
>to include digital link to all workings papers.
The digital links only have to be to the digital records not "all working papers". The digital records are also defined in the vat notice, but they are basically the lists of inputs and outputs doing to the level of detail required (ie daily gross takings for some retail schemes, values from statements where availiable, but otherwise invoices in and out)
-- Edited by johnhemming on Sunday 30th of June 2019 11:07:02 AM
The minimum is to email the 9 boxes and their values (and nothing else) to the agent who then uses bridging software to submit those. It is only the 9 boxes that go to HMRC.
However, if I were an agent I would spend a bit of time checking that they have the digital links properly set up. Hence if I were an agent and the client were preparing accounts in say Excel or Open Office I would ask them to email me the lot put together. That means the agent can check that they have entered the formulae properly and things like that.
The legal minimum, however, is to submit the 9 boxes.
If I were an agent I would try to get some way of making sure that clients cannot easily make mistakes with formulae. Hence I would perhaps give them a template for vat input and output, ideally preventing them from modifying the formulae. Alternatively I would use an online spreadsheet/cashbook system. You could do this, for example, using google sheets and then you could look at what your clients are doing and advise them as to how to get it right. Alternatively you could enable them to access a cloud cashbook (which is based upon a spreadsheet) where the formulae cannot be changed by clients.
I have been doing live MTD returns for about 9 months now. Some of the people who I have assisted to do returns are people who previously were using handwritten accounts. In some cases we produced excel or open office summaries and did bridging from that. I concluded reasonably quickly, however, that the process of bridging is a bit complex for people who are not technically that experienced - I would assume that people who are professional bookkeepers will find bridging quite easy - hence I wrote the cloud cashbook.
The powers that be have sort of assumed that spreadsheets and bridging are easy. Spreadsheets are good and they are quite transparent, but it is also easy for people to get completely confused about formulae.
It remains, however, that all they have do to is to email a workbook with a single worksheet in it with the nine boxes and they are compliant with the law.
I wrote a page about digital links which might be helpful:
https://www.vat.direct/workflow/w/standardform/DigitalLinks
An important point about "Digital Records" is that you only need Digital Links between the Digital Records. The Digital Records need to be created at any time before the vat return is submitted as long as it is submitted on time. (ie before the filing date).
Hence, for example, if a client has a list of invoices printed from any old random computer system you can retype those into your "Digital Records" as long as you list all the invoices with their vat. If you want to use the total from the invoices list, however, you need a digital link.
You can set sheets up and give access to different people. So you can have a sheet that only you and your client can look at.
This is a video about my cloud cashbook which shows how that sort of thing works. youtu.be/c9amoebKhFI
There are lots of other cloud spreadsheet systems. Where I think those are helpful is that you can work with your clients as they go along and tell them where they are going wrong. It is I think easier than emailing spreadsheets backwards and forwards. For example, one of my clients was putting receipts into the payments column of the cashbook. I could look at that and tell them that they are in the wrong place. The client can then correct the data so that when we get to the end of the quarter (today) everything is right and we should be able to submit some time next week.
Generally you can copy from one spreadsheet into another. That can be a bit fiddly some times and you need to check whatever spreadsheet system that you are using will copy to excel or open office.
There is a video, but if you wish to experiment with it you need to set up an account (which costs nothing and can be done this evening). If you wish to do that it is probably best to handle this off the forum my email is john@hemming.email
This is a short video looking particularly at margin calculations:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOxPH4A8uzQ
I need to get my 6 year old to bed now which means I will be out of contact for quite a while. Hence as I won't respond to an email for potentially an hour and a half.
Sets up an account. It is important to remember that this sets up a website so the third box needs the name of a new website ending in .vat.direct such as allisonsbookkeeper.vat.direct
The spreadsheets/cashbooks appear when you look at VAT data for a legal entity. Just click on the link to create a new margin cashbook to create a new margin cashbook. it does the margin calculations, but does not automatically work out the original cost.
The limit is currently 500 transactions per period.
You really need to use Chrome as the browser, it will work up to a point with Safari and Firefox, but Edge and Internet Explorer are a waste of time.
-- Edited by johnhemming on Sunday 30th of June 2019 07:00:26 PM
Hi John, just like to echo what Joanne said and welcome you to the forum, read your posts on Aweb as well as UKBF and it will be great to have your advice and views on some of the issues that are raised on this site.
As for MTD I still very much have my head in the sand, I thought I could avoid it and hoped it would all go away but it seems it is here to stay, I only had two VAT clients one I got rid of as he was a PITA and the other was below the threshold so de-registered however I now have another two who are just below it but likely to need to register within the next few months as well as a new client who is just setting up the Company but wishes to register for VAT straight away, so plenty of things for me to sort out over the coming months and all these posts are invaluable.
__________________
Doug
These are only my opinions of how I see things and therefore should not be taken as advice
I echo Doug's sentiments having also seen the help you've given on the other forums, plus Joanne was shouting your praises from the rooftops (that's a good thing btw )
__________________
John
Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.
) 
